ftwdrummer Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, gbass598 said: I understand you. I also think those things started to get stagnant before the George scandal. Maybe even in coordination with Gino and Colin leaving. In any event, I will always enjoy hearing a Tom Aungst drumline. It is their strong point right now. I'd love to see them rebound as I've always enjoyed them. As I tell my own drumline students, Rome wasn't built in a day. I completely see how they need to rebuild from an organizational standpoint but I hope they can continue to evolve from a creative standpoint in coordination with that. I mean, Cadets have been innovators in my time as a fan (2005 on); people just didn't like those particular innovations (use of amplification, specifically amplified voice). One can quibble with whether the chilly reception was because they were talking or because what they were saying didn't work, but it was an innovation for which they got pilloried (enough that when the Hopkins scandal broke there were people here whose response, in addition to condemnation of what he did, was 'oh good maybe we can get rid of all the rules changes/innovations that we blame on him now'). I'd also argue that there isn't much new ground being broken in general. The biggest changes the Bluecoats have made are "what if we took the time and spent the money to find the 'right way' to do amplification," which in my mind is less innovating and more throwing money at a problem; "what if we built really really big set pieces," which, same; and "what if we wore comfortable uniforms instead of putting on heavy jackets during the summer," which was something the 27th Lancers (among others) figured out >fifty years ago? Is any of it really that innovative? Similar with Crown: what have they innovated beyond "what if we got really really good at playing technical brass passages" and "what if our uniforms changed to match the show," which is something Star figured out in the 80s? Cadets seem to be in a classic rock-and-a-hard-place mode: they're told to innovate, but people don't like the innovations they come up with, or the more basic changes from tradition (see: all the yelling about not having maroon in 2016; though that too may have been less of a 'how dare you change' and more of a 'this doesn't work' complaint). All that said: I imagine we (myself most of all here) might be pinning too much on one performance of one show and what that one performance of that one show says about the state of both a specific corps and the activity as a whole. So. Feel free to consider the above the sound and the fury signifying nothing. Edited July 3, 2022 by ftwdrummer 5 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris ncsu Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 24 minutes ago, ftwdrummer said: I mean, Cadets have been innovators in my time as a fan (2005 on); people just didn't like those particular innovations (use of amplification, specifically amplified voice). One can quibble with whether the chilly reception was because they were talking or because what they were saying didn't work, but it was an innovation for which they got pilloried (enough that when the Hopkins scandal broke there were people here whose response, in addition to condemnation of what he did, was 'oh good maybe we can get rid of all the rules changes/innovations that we blame on him now'). I'd also argue that there isn't much new ground being broken in general. The biggest changes the Bluecoats have made are "what if we took the time and spent the money to find the 'right way' to do amplification," which in my mind is less innovating and more throwing money at a problem; "what if we built really really big set pieces," which, same; and "what if we wore comfortable uniforms instead of putting on heavy jackets during the summer," which was something the 27th Lancers (among others) figured out >fifty years ago? Is any of it really that innovative? Similar with Crown: what have they innovated beyond "what if we got really really good at playing technical brass passages" and "what if our uniforms changed to match the show," which is something Star figured out in the 80s? Cadets seem to be in a classic rock-and-a-hard-place mode: they're told to innovate, but people don't like the innovations they come up with, or the more basic changes from tradition (see: all the yelling about not having maroon in 2016; though that too may have been less of a 'how dare you change' and more of a 'this doesn't work' complaint). All that said: I imagine we (myself most of all here) might be pinning too much on one performance of one show and what that one performance of that one show says about the state of both a specific corps and the activity as a whole. So. Feel free to consider the above the sound and the fury signifying nothing. I love this post. Says what I've been thinking for maybe 10 years, but better than i could articulate. Most of us love the 1990s Cadets, but imo shows like 1996, 1998, 1999 were not breaking the mold, either. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftwdrummer Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Revising and extending my remarks a bit (with the explicit note that while I am deliberately being provocative, I'm also eager to learn more of the lore if I'm missing something): have Cadets really had more than the three innovations, ever? Like, my understanding of the history specifically from an innovation perspective is that In the early 1970s they decided "what if we made an explicitly anti-war statement while competing in VFW/AL," in 1982/1983/1984, they decided "what if we moved fast," and in the mid-2000s they decided "what if we talked too," and that's...basically it? It's not like Cadets brought forward things like asymmetric drill, or shows with storylines, or expanding the range of possible musical selections to include things like Barber and Bartok or completely-original compositions, or spending money. Even customizing the uniform to be show-specific (2005, and then Crown starting in 2007) was something Star did first (taking the plaid sash from the 1989 show off and replacing it with the Romanesque sash for 1990 and 1991). Laying it out I'm almost certain I have to be missing something...what am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waliman4444 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 After listening for the third time I realized that the voice over annoyed me more each time...Its the frequency!... intrusive on the music..imo..peace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ftwdrummer said: Revising and extending my remarks a bit (with the explicit note that while I am deliberately being provocative, I'm also eager to learn more of the lore if I'm missing something): have Cadets really had more than the three innovations, ever? Like, my understanding of the history specifically from an innovation perspective is that In the early 1970s they decided "what if we made an explicitly anti-war statement while competing in VFW/AL," in 1982/1983/1984, they decided "what if we moved fast," and in the mid-2000s they decided "what if we talked too," and that's...basically it? It's not like Cadets brought forward things like asymmetric drill, or shows with storylines, or expanding the range of possible musical selections to include things like Barber and Bartok or completely-original compositions, or spending money. Even customizing the uniform to be show-specific (2005, and then Crown starting in 2007) was something Star did first (taking the plaid sash from the 1989 show off and replacing it with the Romanesque sash for 1990 and 1991). Laying it out I'm almost certain I have to be missing something...what am I missing here? yes in the 80s they revolutionized the entire activity drill-wise, percussion ensemble arranging, rehearsal/teaching techniques and in the 90s really pushed the boundaries of what was "possible" on a football field... a lot of those designers/educators left for Star and were involved in what you detail above, other 90s members/staff are the one's designing/programming now for Bluecoats (Moore etc), and their guard/visual techs were w/ Vanguard for Babylon I agree with your premise that not too much is really innovative these days... especially compared to the "visual" revolution under Zingali and the arrangement/revolution under Prime/Hannum (Hannum now at Crown) - Hopkins had zero to do with any of it - prior director hired these guys, he just drove them away IMO Edited July 3, 2022 by George Dixon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha1 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Wow, just caught the show on the replay today. LOVE it! This show kept my attention from start to finish. Wonderful! Dang if this show is this good now what will it look like next month. Can’t wait to see it again!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ykw Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Icer said: - Voiceover - If there is a way they can take out some of the narration that is not central to the story, it will showcase the music and marching more. The show's "Rear View Mirror" theme is inspired by Jack Kerouac -- the "narration" is his prose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) Lots of good discussion. I absolutely love this show. 1) To start with, the question about uniforms is subjective. Some will like them and some will not. I know for sure that the corps is not rolling in cash these days so I am not sure they could afford something more expensive and elegant designed for this show. Also, when it comes to uniforms that corps are known for, name another corps that has a long-time storied uniform that is as iconic as the Cadets? I have long said it is very difficult to change the look of a corps that was known for such an iconic uni. I like them but they do look somewhat baggy at the top of the show, primarily because they have another top on under it. I do love the uniform change in the show. 2) Brass book is wonderful. It's great writing and it seems to flow so well. The brass line is strong and will only get better. 3) Percussion book is so well written. There never seems to be any clutter. You always know what to listen to and it works so well with the brass. Strong section of players too. 4) We are getting a lot of drill. That is really nice to see. But they are doing a lot of body work and some excellent staging. 5) Visual analysis should ultimately be strong for this group. They use the field and the drill and overall visual really makes sense. They start on one side of the field and by the end of the ballad they are in a tight circle on the other backside of the field. I think things are constructed in a way that you never loose focus of where the show is taking you. I love it when they spin-out, like a hurricane, the tight circle at midfield all the way to each end zone and then pull it back in to a company front. That front then dissolves from the ends inward and we get another block that moves back into a front. Very cool. When clean this will get big applause. 6) As for narration I actually love it. It sounds so professional and really tells the story we need to hear. They may cut a few snippets of this but I cannot imagine this show without the most basic parts of this narration. Well done. 7) regardless of where they place this show is constructed so well and the concept is outstanding. When it comes to all the talk about being innovative I think a lot of that gets overblown way too often, regardless of what corps we are speaking of. Some of the arguments over who has more demand or who is pushing the envelop often amounts to nothing. It is not what you do but how you do it. Sure, there are exceptions. Blue Devils are the standard in this activity and they do not innovate every year and they have a formula. There have been many similarities in their shows over the last 12 or so years. So what. They are amazing to watch perform when they are at their best. Good music is still good music. Good drill is still good drill. Good staging and body movement and dance is still good. Good marching is still good marching. The question should always first be: can the performers perform? Then does the show work? Nobody is playing more of an old-school 90s style horn book more than Phantom Regiment...and guess what? The crowd loves it. It works and they can perform. In the end we should all be happy with this excellent production by The Cadets. Edited July 3, 2022 by jwillis35 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCI-86 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 29 minutes ago, jwillis35 said: Lots of good discussion. I absolutely love this show. 1) To start with, the question about uniforms is subjective. Some will like them and some will not. I know for sure that the corps is not rolling in cash these days so I am not sure they could afford something more expensive and elegant designed for this show. Also, when it comes to uniforms that corps are known for, name another corps that has a long-time storied uniform that is as iconic as the Cadets? I have long said it is very difficult to change the look of a corps that was known for such an iconic uni. I like them but they do look somewhat baggy at the top of the show, primarily because they have another top on under it. I do love the uniform change in the show. 2) Brass book is wonderful. It's great writing and it seems to flow so well. The brass line is strong and will only get better. 3) Percussion book is so well written. There never seems to be any clutter. You always know what to listen to and it works so well with the brass. Strong section of players too. 4) We are getting a lot of drill. That is really nice to see. But they are doing a lot of body work and some excellent staging. 5) Visual analysis should ultimately be strong for this group. They use the field and the drill and overall visual really makes sense. They start on one side of the field and by the end of the ballad they are in a tight circle on the other backside of the field. I think things are constructed in a way that you never loose focus of where the show is taking you. I love it when they spin-out, like a hurricane, the tight circle at midfield all the way to each end zone and then pull it back in to a company front. That front then dissolves from the ends inward and we get another block that moves back into a front. Very cool. When clean this will get big applause. 6) As for narration I actually love it. It sounds so professional and really tells the story we need to hear. They may cut a few snippets of this but I cannot imagine this show without the most basic parts of this narration. Well done. 7) regardless of where they place this show is constructed so well and the concept is outstanding. When it comes to all the talk about being innovative I think a lot of that gets overblown way too often, regardless of what corps we are speaking of. Some of the arguments over who has more demand or who is pushing the envelop often amounts to nothing. It is not what you do but how you do it. Sure, there are exceptions. Blue Devils are the standard in this activity and they do not innovate every year and they have a formula. There have been many similarities in their shows over the last 12 or so years. So what. They are amazing to watch perform when they are at their best. Good music is still good music. Good drill is still good drill. Good staging and body movement and dance is still good. Good marching is still good marching. The question should always first be: can the performers perform? Then does the show work? Nobody is playing more of an old-school 90s style horn book more than Phantom Regiment...and guess what? The crowd loves it. It works and they can perform. In the end we should all be happy with this excellent production by The Cadets. You can’t move up in the rankings without equally strong captions across the board so I think, to add to your excellent write-up, you need to add in that their guard is much improved. Hopefully they can clean it up. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTNK Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 5 hours ago, ftwdrummer said: I mean, Cadets have been innovators in my time as a fan (2005 on); people just didn't like those particular innovations (use of amplification, specifically amplified voice). One can quibble with whether the chilly reception was because they were talking or because what they were saying didn't work, but it was an innovation for which they got pilloried (enough that when the Hopkins scandal broke there were people here whose response, in addition to condemnation of what he did, was 'oh good maybe we can get rid of all the rules changes/innovations that we blame on him now'). I'd also argue that there isn't much new ground being broken in general. The biggest changes the Bluecoats have made are "what if we took the time and spent the money to find the 'right way' to do amplification," which in my mind is less innovating and more throwing money at a problem; "what if we built really really big set pieces," which, same; and "what if we wore comfortable uniforms instead of putting on heavy jackets during the summer," which was something the 27th Lancers (among others) figured out >fifty years ago? Is any of it really that innovative? Seeing which way the wind is blowing, and investing in those things 3-5 years before everyone else IS innovation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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