Tuesday, July 19th “DCI Broken Arrow” …. Tiger Stadium Broken Arrow High School … Broken Arrow, OKLAHOMA

[spacewill]

6 hours ago, jjeffeory said:

I've said it for many years regarding BD. They get the benefit of the doubt when there's an issue.

I specifically remember hearing some trumpet dirt in their '1930' show in Riverside, and the judges had them ahead despite the obvious issues.

In 2019 I heard brass issues show after show, especially at the San Bernardino show, and later shows, and they still were beating the Cavaliers in brass until the end. It took all season for someone to call them out on their brass.

Last night they had some very noticeable guard issues, that were picked up in the guard score, but totally ignored in the visual captions.  Yes, I think the BD use their props better than everyone else. Their design is the best. ...that, however, shouldn't boost the numbers to the point of being better than everyone else when they have some issues to address. Caption Bleed galore...

...and 1.7 points with THAT show? Yawn

Honestly, I'm not feeling this season so far. Lots of disappointing shows. There's not a lot of cohesion in so many of the designs, including BD, SCV, Cavaliers, and Crown. It's just a bunch of stuff that they're trying to mix together that doesn't mix together, and it shows.

Bluecoats have done a good job of being more cohesive than the other corps previously mentioned.

Cadets have done a wonderful job of coordinating all the pieces of music into a cohesive and pleasing package.

Phantom Regiment has done an excellent job of constructing a cohesive and pleasing design.

Blue Stars have done a great job, but I don't totally love the show despite WANTING to love the show.

Mandarins might have the most cohesive show, imho.

Boston is refining and layering, and are better than the first group I mentioned, and I hope they can add more.

Troopers show makes sense, but Crossmen's show doesn't really. Blue Knights is disjointed. Colts' show makes sense. Music City's design is cohesive, and flows well. 

Everyone, except the Cavaliers are cleaning up nicely. I do hope that other corps don't get sick.

...and if this type of design, aka the TM, is what the judges are going to reward then I'm going to severely cut back on my future ticket purchasing.

BD's winning is a symptom of a greater problem in the activity. One organization has become too powerful and too influential in the marching band and drum corps arena. That happens when you own the two largest marching band circuits in America (Western Bands and USBands), and are planning on starting a winter guard circuit as well ( if what I've been told is true). It is a winning business model for ONE organization.

This situation isn't likely to ever change until fans start voting with their feet with ticket purchase and FLO subscriptions.

As I've been saying forever. The emperor has NO clothes!

Another corps umbrella organization needs to do this too... **cough** Boston.

 

Great words.  It's fine for BD to get the benefit of the doubt but how it is happening now is highway robbery.  

Edited July 20, 2022 by spacewill

[DrummerParent]

2 hours ago, CAtenhut said:

After watching the show again, I'm realizing that I really don't love too many of the endings this year. BD's is just eh, Crown screaming "right here, right now", BC's and SCV's seem long and dragged out, Boston's is quiet. 

So who has your favorite endings this year... endings that get people to jump out of their seats while the final note is still playing - Cadets, Phantom and Mandarins maybe?

EDIT: I know these endings will change and evolve over the final weeks. 

I can see where a “right here, right now” chant or two could be removed but that ending is balls to the wall.  It’s my favorite but I’m also a little biased to Crown.

[Photographer Jim]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

myself and many others have said it beore:   judges can hold numbers and make adjustments as they go. performance order had no impact on the outcome

i totally agree.

Let me preface this with the disclaimer that I am a visual artist, and in no way a musician or vocalist, but i do have experiences which are relevant.  My wife is a singer, and part of a chorus that is the defending Midsize Chorus International Champions, and who are seeded 6th for the up-coming 2023 International open competition.  Choruses who have qualified (36 in all) will first compete in semi-finals, with the top ten moving on to Finals. Performance order for both is by random draw.  Judging is according to established rubrics which (as a musical art) have significant overlap to the rubrics used in DCI.  I have had discussions with her about the potential effects of performance order.  Her reply is that it doesn't matter; the judges are highly trained and totally qualified to adjudicate the competition, and are skilled at being able to accurately place a chorus's performance on the scoring rubric, regardless of when the chorus's performance takes place during the competition. There is complete faith in the judges commitment to judge fairly, accurately, and without bias.  To believe otherwise is to imply that judging results are largely meaningless.

I believe this carries over to DCI competitions as well.  I firmly trust that DCI judges are able to focus in the here and now, and evaluate a corps performance accurately for what it is, regardless of performance order, the makeup of the competition field, or personal preferences.  Anyone who believes otherwise should probably not be following the activity.

[dureau]

56 minutes ago, jjeffeory said:

Spot on!

Yes but why do you ignore the other corps from last night. That, to me, is not cool. If you are going to review a show , review it all. What that always screams, in my estimation, is what DCI’s main problem and point of criticism is. No sense of Parity. You want to see real competition,  introduce rehearsal restrictions snd structures, equality of. number of shows performed, money spent on ancillary things like props, parity in tour housing, etc. , bring back scoring based on competence, decrease weighting of general effect, and decrease  level of subjective judging . And many other things to promote parity. 

[spacewill]

59 minutes ago, Photographer Jim said:

ANY show is better live than on Flo where what you see is the perspective of a wide angle lens and Flo's mic placements.  I saw BD's show in Sacramento; it is both visually (especially visually) and audibly miles above the "Flo experience". 

Unfortunately, that is one of the major pitfalls of having to rely on a streaming vs. live view.  Unless one is lucky enough to live where one can attend a major show, one's experience with many corps will be limited, and not all that accurate.

Will tell you on Friday when they visit Texas.  You can also tell from the crowd response what shows they are enjoying and BD gets the BD response but they were far from getting the loudest response from the crowd.  It's really sad to see how badly SCVs show is received.  It's just a very boring show regardless of the talent in the corp performing it.

[spacewill]

12 minutes ago, Photographer Jim said:

i totally agree.

Let me preface this with the disclaimer that I am a visual artist, and in no way a musician or vocalist, but i do have experiences which are relevant.  My wife is a singer, and part of a chorus that is the defending Midsize Chorus International Champions, and who are seeded 6th for the up-coming 2023 International open competition.  Choruses who have qualified (36 in all) will first compete in semi-finals, with the top ten moving on to Finals. Performance order for both is by random draw.  Judging is according to established rubrics which (as a musical art) have significant overlap to the rubrics used in DCI.  I have had discussions with her about the potential effects of performance order.  Her reply is that it doesn't matter; the judges are highly trained and totally qualified to adjudicate the competition, and are skilled at being able to accurately place a chorus's performance on the scoring rubric, regardless of when the chorus's performance takes place during the competition. There is complete faith in the judges commitment to judge fairly, accurately, and without bias.  To believe otherwise is to imply that judging results are largely meaningless.

I believe this carries over to DCI competitions as well.  I firmly trust that DCI judges are able to focus in the here and now, and evaluate a corps performance accurately for what it is, regardless of performance order, the makeup of the competition field, or personal preferences.  Anyone who believes otherwise should probably not be following the activity.

Having seen enough competitions in person, and in the last 30 years of following Marching.  Marching order absolutely has an effect on scores regardless of whether judges can adjust or not.  If they are 1 or 2 spots apart then no big deal, the difference in order last night was harsh.  One example is at indoor percussion state judging this year.  One of the groups equipment was late due to flat tires and they were allowed to perform but weren't judged because they would have performed too far away from their competitors in their class, essentially eliminating their chance to win of which they were a top two group.  This is proof that even judges know that bias exists and the best way to overcome the bias is keep similar level groups as close together as possible.

[Cappybara]

2 hours ago, GREENBLUE said:

I’m watching rebroadcast on Flo. 
does anyone else feel like Crowns show is way over designed? How much cloth can they have on the field?? For my eye it’s overdone and sloppy. Sometimes less is more.

I think overdesigned is the wrong word. It just doesn’t have any cohesiveness 

It feels like a stoned teenager came up with the concept.
 

“Let’s do a show about living in the moment. We’ll call it Right Here, Right Now. We’ll use disjointed music with no relation to each other that represent living in the moment, somehow. And throw in some colorful ribbons, because why not? Just in case people are confused what it’s about, we can have someone screaming the show name so they know what’s going on. You know what would be really funny, let’s have the audience be distracted with an app during a show about living in the moment. Everyone loves some irony” 

Maybe Bloo slipped in a little something something into Crown’s staff’s drinks so they could experience an acid trip too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

It’s such a shame, the corps is so so talented. Design staff let them down, they could easily be the front runners with a more cohesive design

[jjeffeory]

3 hours ago, dureau said:

Yes but why do you ignore the other corps from last night. That, to me, is not cool. If you are going to review a show , review it all. What that always screams, in my estimation, is what DCI’s main problem and point of criticism is. No sense of Parity. You want to see real competition,  introduce rehearsal restrictions and structures, equality of. number of shows performed, money spent on ancillary things like props, parity in tour housing, etc. , bring back scoring based on competence, decrease weighting of general effect, and decrease  level of subjective judging . And many other things to promote parity. 

It was never my intention to give a show review.

I haven't really given a review of anyone's whole show for a very long time, and I didn't ignore talking about the other corps from last night.  Maybe not in that particular post, but my thoughts and opinions are scattered around the various topics.

I noticed the problems with the Cavaliers' show, but I didn't give a rundown of all the corps because I didn't have as much of an issue with them, but I have talked about other corps shortcomings too in other posts.

 

...and that's the whole point at the very top. The judging is subjective. It's not science, it's a popularity contest that settles things between several closely executed  designs. BD is going to win that overall game every time.

...and go ahead and laugh... it's nothing that's going to affect me.

Edited July 21, 2022 by jjeffeory

[Cappybara]

1 hour ago, Incognito365 said:

Some people are just messy. What was the point of bringing someones FB post/comment here, when they probably aren't even members? Does it make you feel good to make fun of a college student? Validation? Some people want to talk about bullies, then want to post stuff like this, react to it with a laughing face. Humility is much needed for several members of this forum. 

Is that you Gabe? 
 

(sorry, had to)

[NakedEye]

32 minutes ago, Photographer Jim said:

I believe this carries over to DCI competitions as well.  I firmly trust that DCI judges are able to focus in the here and now, and evaluate a corps performance accurately for what it is, regardless of performance order,

For some it wasn't that they weren't focusing on the here and now, but that they weren't focusing enough on the RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. 😜