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Carolina Crown 2023


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No one who understands the scoring and the judging sheets would claim that percussion alone is the make or break of placement. This is an extreme interpretative position of the point. Using Crown 2013 to try to demonstrate or de-emphasize the importance of having a consistent championship contending percussion sections is disingenuous. This win represents a marginal example and does not highlight the center of championship winning or contention in the activity overall. 

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2 hours ago, Drum Corps Is Now a Bust said:

No one who understands the scoring and the judging sheets would claim that percussion alone is the make or break of placement. This is an extreme interpretative position of the point. Using Crown 2013 to try to demonstrate or de-emphasize the importance of having a consistent championship contending percussion sections is disingenuous. This win represents a marginal example and does not highlight the center of championship winning or contention in the activity overall. 

You were talking about winning a championship so I looked up the year they won the championship and reported the results.  Then you got mad and called me flippant, extreme and disingenuous.  

I’m not your slave.  If you don’t like the highly relevant example I selected, then do your own #### research.  

Perhaps a good test would be this:

Over the last 15 years (the time period they have been in the upper half of the top 12) how many times would the second place percussion score (using that as a proxy for an average championship contender) have been enough to earn them a gold medal?  

If the answer is they would have had a lot more gold medals, then I think most of us would concede your point.  If the answer is more like one more, then it would seem you are overstating a point that most everyone is already aware of and has been discussed in the context of a more accurate magnitude of relevance.

P.S.  This isn’t a set up.  I have no idea what the actual answer to the above question is.  You may have a strong point for all I know, but I think we need to see the research to back it up, and that’s on the person making the claim.  

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1 hour ago, skevinp said:

You were talking about winning a championship so I looked up the year they won the championship and reported the results.  Then you got mad and called me flippant, extreme and disingenuous.  

I’m not your slave.  If you don’t like the highly relevant example I selected, then do your own #### research.  

Perhaps a good test would be this:

Over the last 15 years (the time period they have been in the upper half of the top 12) how many times would the second place percussion score (using that as a proxy for an average championship contender) have been enough to earn them a gold medal?  

If the answer is they would have had a lot more gold medals, then I think most of us would concede your point.  If the answer is more like one more, then it would seem you are overstating a point that most everyone is already aware of and has been discussed in the context of a more accurate magnitude of relevance.

P.S.  This isn’t a set up.  I have no idea what the actual answer to the above question is.  You may have a strong point for all I know, but I think we need to see the research to back it up, and that’s on the person making the claim.  

There are a couple of things interesting about your reply. (1) You seem to be getting overly upset about a comment that didn't even address you personally. If I had wanted to address directly, I would have referenced a comment. I'm not sure what that's about. I guess I just hit a nerve with you for some reason. (2) You are making a faulty assumption about an outcome that rarely if ever happens on this platform, namely that if I present the right evidence and interpret such evidence in the right way, that a lot of people will agree with me. This simply is not the case and rarely will be because evidence to subject to interpretation and many people on this platform don't want to examine evidence that just want to consume drum corps for entertainment purposes. (3) This is related to the second point. Don't assume what someone else will do. You stated: "I think most of us would concede your point." In other words, you speak for yourself but not others. 

I actually not trying to be offensive here, but to present a situation where my points may be conceded if I simply provide evidence is a far stretch because interpretation isn't that simple and neither are the conclusions reached from such evidence. 

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4 hours ago, Drum Corps Is Now a Bust said:

No one who understands the scoring and the judging sheets would claim that percussion alone is the make or break of placement. This is an extreme interpretative position of the point. Using Crown 2013 to try to demonstrate or de-emphasize the importance of having a consistent championship contending percussion sections is disingenuous. This win represents a marginal example and does not highlight the center of championship winning or contention in the activity overall. 

the crazy thing with 13 was MA saved them. had that sheet been doubled like today, it could have gone otherwise, because judges with a brass background were far more likely to overlook the percussion issues

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18 minutes ago, Drum Corps Is Now a Bust said:

There are a couple of things interesting about your reply. (1) You seem to be getting overly upset about a comment that didn't even address you personally. If I had wanted to address directly, I would have referenced a comment. I'm not sure what that's about. I guess I just hit a nerve with you for some reason. (2) You are making a faulty assumption about an outcome that rarely if ever happens on this platform, namely that if I present the right evidence and interpret such evidence in the right way, that a lot of people will agree with me. This simply is not the case and rarely will be because evidence to subject to interpretation and many people on this platform don't want to examine evidence that just want to consume drum corps for entertainment purposes. (3) This is related to the second point. Don't assume what someone else will do. You stated: "I think most of us would concede your point." In other words, you speak for yourself but not others. 

I actually not trying to be offensive here, but to present a situation where my points may be conceded if I simply provide evidence is a far stretch because interpretation isn't that simple and neither are the conclusions reached from such evidence. 

Uh huh.

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7 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

the percussion caption is IMO the deepest caption in all of DCI. Literally any of the top 10 percussion sections are incredible. And with the math used for scores, it alone is not going to call the overall placement. I mean if it didn't in 2013, it won't now

I'm not saying it will, but you have to be consistent across the board to compete for a top 3 spot. Having a 6th place percussion in a less competitive top 6 in 2013 can't compare to the current competitive environment.

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I would like to say that, again, I wasn't stating that having a better percussion score would have won a title for Crown in any year. I was simply stating that more focus on percussion is just as needed as with the design. Not sure when it turned into a better percussion will win a championship.

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3 hours ago, Drum Corps Is Now a Bust said:

There are a couple of things interesting about your reply. (1) You seem to be getting overly upset about a comment that didn't even address you personally. If I had wanted to address directly, I would have referenced a comment. I'm not sure what that's about. I guess I jus....

what the heck, lol?

So, Crown 2023.  Cannot wait to see the music choices, but for the first time, I'm even more intrigued by what they're going to do visually.  Hoping for something really bold and maybe even a little risky.  

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Now that’s what  I’m talkin’ ‘bout: folks baggin’ on CrownPERC! 

Crown faithful know that’s the third rail ‘round here. We’re painfully aware that it’s been a weak spot for a long, long time. Fact is, it’s exceedingly unlikely that anybody contributing to this thread has any kind of juice to bring about any change.

Oh, we all hope like h@ll or some of the empirical types among us lean toward laws of probability that next years’ battery and front ensemble will vault to Sanford levels, but to paraphrase 2017, it is what It Is.

I’m not saying that the critiques aren’t valid, it’s just that there’s nowhere else on DCP that you’ll find fans that are more aware of the issue.

Now, how about that CrownGUARD in ‘22?! 

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4 hours ago, ZTWright said:

I'm not saying it will, but you have to be consistent across the board to compete for a top 3 spot. Having a 6th place percussion in a less competitive top 6 in 2013 can't compare to the current competitive environment.

true but Bloo and Boston had sub boxes in 4th too. it's the 5ths, especially in GE that are more of an issue than the drum sheet

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