BWise Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 6 hours ago, Cappybara said: In what way was Crown doing something new? The app? Opener starting with percussion for build up and finishing that movement with a drill formation that spread the entire length of the field and a long, resolved chord. Brass never plays below fortissimo for the entire length of the opener (I’ll give Crown credit for starting with the fortissimo brass in the opener of 2019 rather than percussion). They move onto the next movement (that’s always about 2x the length of the opener) with the standard technical double and triple tonguing passages and plenty of gratuitous runs that they’ve been doing for years and years and the movement closes with 3 notes rather than playing a long chord, same as usual. Move onto a majestic sounding ballad where they show off their ability to achieve great dynamic contrast, replaying the same melody over and over. Percussion break right after starting with the pit for a smooth transition and then moving into the battery. Closer with some more technical music but this time with complex rhythmic passages rather than double and triple tonguing finishing off with geometric drill that leads into the crown set. All of which has synth vocals and sounds weaving in and out of the show. On YouTube, there’s a video showing just how similar the closing moments of all crown shows are for crying out loud, down to the b flat major chord. The main difference between crown 2017-2019 and crown 2022 is that they went from abstract and meta show concepts to a very literal one. Adding an app does not all of a sudden make Crown’s show different this year. And that’s fine, ALL corps have a formula. In the 80s and 90s, it was called having an identity. For whatever reason, in 2022 it is seen as a negative thing to put down other corps for You could easily do the same analysis with much more comparative exactitude for the other shows I mentioned and their predecessors .. it is also interesting to me the gratuitous musical moments you mention are now emulated across most corps in the top twelve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 1 hour ago, BWise said: You could easily do the same analysis with much more comparative exactitude for the other shows I mentioned and their predecessors .. it is also interesting to me the gratuitous musical moments you mention are now emulated across most corps in the top twelve. So your argument is now “yeah we are formulaic but others are formulaic-er!” Oh, it’s prevalent among other corps now too, yes, but crown is the king of them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 On 8/20/2022 at 9:21 AM, LabMaster said: Reasoning? A very bold statement so very very early in the season. As many have said, you still have BD to contend with as well as 2 other corps ahead of them. Crown is due for a breakout program. They certainly have and can attract the talent, and they can manage a season. Just have a sense that these recent show design mistakes will not be repeated in 2023. They are due for an E=mc2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 On 8/20/2022 at 10:06 AM, DFA1970 said: They won’t, I said it. Remember our bet? Of course not. I could of course be wrong. Odds are not on my prediction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWise Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Cappybara said: So your argument is now “yeah we are formulaic but others are formulaic-er!” Oh, it’s prevalent among other corps now too, yes, but crown is the king of them Totally disagree .. a very high percentage of I’ll say fans would say Blue Devils run the most formulaic shows in the activity and have really excelled at training the judges to reward that formula. I did not even read 90% of what you wrote because it’s the same stuff regurgitated ad nauseam .. you clearly don’t like what Crown does. I like what they do .. and it’s that simple. I do think Crown did something different this year. It was not groundbreaking and they struggled to execute it. They will remain a top corps. They will recruit just fine and life will go on. And BD .. will keep repeating what they do until the judges decide to reward something else. I don’t like what they do .. it is not interesting to me and that is my prerogative. Crown, from what I have been told, was happy with their season. The kids enjoyed the work they were given. That is a win/win. Crown has not placed below 5th (once) in what? 14 years so I think they are just fine without anonymous DCP honks on their staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 19 hours ago, Cappybara said: In what way was Crown doing something new? The app? Opener starting with percussion for build up and finishing that movement with a drill formation that spread the entire length of the field and a long, resolved chord. Brass never plays below fortissimo for the entire length of the opener (I’ll give Crown credit for starting with the fortissimo brass in the opener of 2019 rather than percussion). They move onto the next movement (that’s always about 2x the length of the opener) with the standard technical double and triple tonguing passages and plenty of gratuitous runs that they’ve been doing for years and years and the movement closes with 3 notes rather than playing a long chord, same as usual. Move onto a majestic sounding ballad where they show off their ability to achieve great dynamic contrast, replaying the same melody over and over. Percussion break right after starting with the pit for a smooth transition and then moving into the battery. Closer with some more technical music but this time with complex rhythmic passages rather than double and triple tonguing finishing off with geometric drill that leads into the crown set. All of which has synth vocals and sounds weaving in and out of the show. On YouTube, there’s a video showing just how similar the closing moments of all crown shows are for crying out loud, down to the b flat major chord. The main difference between crown 2017-2019 and crown 2022 is that they went from abstract and meta show concepts to a very literal one. Adding an app does not all of a sudden make Crown’s show different this year. And that’s fine, ALL corps have a formula. In the 80s and 90s, it was called having an identity. For whatever reason, in 2022 it is seen as a negative thing to put down other corps for Question for you. Do design directors know ahead of time what their “brand show concepts” are, and design them into the program? Or does it just happen by momentum and the reality of their staff talent and opinions on what makes a good show? You and I have talked about this idea for years. After watching it play out at really almost every corps, I now am thinking the designers know full well they are repeating past concepts as a way of defining their brand and sound for recruiting new members. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 (edited) Some corps have had very obvious design themes, most notably Phantom Regiment and in the past, Madison Scouts. You pretty much knew what to expect every season. Phantom still retains many of their expected idioms. Santa Clara Vanguard has usually been symphonic music with highbrow themes. Blue Knights had a consistent musical theme for a decade and then suddenly and purposefully changed it—and look what happened. This has to strike fear into every show designer. Bluecoats had no such concept until Tilt. Then they grabbed onto sound design and went with that momentum into modern and eclectic “fun”. Costuming and set design evolved the idea and now Bluecoats are established as “the cool kids.” Their shows are predictably unpredictable. But if you listen you can hear repeating concepts in their arrangements. BD is likewise predictable in their approach. Their costuming has stayed pretty much the same for a decade at least. Their sound design is virtually identical. Their shows are thematically very similar, and only recently has set design evolved. Musically they repeat many if not all of the same ideas every season—right down to the big ballad to close Act 2 with the corps in a block stage left (or right). As you very succinctly identified, Crown is literally repeating their show designs and simply sliding a different visual on top of them. The brass arrangements are almost identical. These are not stupid people so they have to know they are doing this, right? Edited August 21, 2022 by MikeRapp 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 1 hour ago, BWise said: Totally disagree .. a very high percentage of I’ll say fans would say Blue Devils run the most formulaic shows in the activity and have really excelled at training the judges to reward that formula. I did not even read 90% of what you wrote because it’s the same stuff regurgitated ad nauseam .. you clearly don’t like what Crown does. I like what they do .. and it’s that simple. I do think Crown did something different this year. It was not groundbreaking and they struggled to execute it. They will remain a top corps. They will recruit just fine and life will go on. And BD .. will keep repeating what they do until the judges decide to reward something else. I don’t like what they do .. it is not interesting to me and that is my prerogative. Crown, from what I have been told, was happy with their season. The kids enjoyed the work they were given. That is a win/win. Crown has not placed below 5th (once) in what? 14 years so I think they are just fine without anonymous DCP honks on their staff. All corps have a formula, even Crown. That's just a fact. Klesch is very good at what he does, but his brass arrangements are as formulaic as BD's, all the way down to the 3 note ending he has at the end of every single 2nd movement. Crown's visual design is not as formulaic, but that's only because their visual design team is still finding their identity. All corps have some sort of formula they go to. It is up to us fans to choose which formulas we like and which we don't. I loved Crown's formula pre-2017. I've loved BD's formula ever since 2008, you don't. And that's okay. It's a good thing that all these corps have such distinct identities that allow us to pick and choose which ones we enjoy and which we don't. Maybe one day the current Crown design staff will move into a formula I enjoy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Guns Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 1 hour ago, BWise said: Totally disagree .. a very high percentage of I’ll say fans would say Blue Devils run the most formulaic shows in the activity and have really excelled at training the judges to reward that formula. I did not even read 90% of what you wrote because it’s the same stuff regurgitated ad nauseam .. you clearly don’t like what Crown does. I like what they do .. and it’s that simple. I do think Crown did something different this year. It was not groundbreaking and they struggled to execute it. They will remain a top corps. They will recruit just fine and life will go on. And BD .. will keep repeating what they do until the judges decide to reward something else. I don’t like what they do .. it is not interesting to me and that is my prerogative. Crown, from what I have been told, was happy with their season. The kids enjoyed the work they were given. That is a win/win. Crown has not placed below 5th (once) in what? 14 years so I think they are just fine without anonymous DCP honks on their staff. I don't want to put words in your mouth, I just want to respectfully understand your point of view. Are you saying that BD isn't winning fair and square, they only win cause they have the judges in their back pockets? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 51 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: Question for you. Do design directors know ahead of time what their “brand show concepts” are, and design them into the program? Or does it just happen by momentum and the reality of their staff talent and opinions on what makes a good show? You and I have talked about this idea for years. After watching it play out at really almost every corps, I now am thinking the designers know full well they are repeating past concepts as a way of defining their brand and sound for recruiting new members. I have no clue how far out corps have their show concepts picked out, but they certainly do play to their identity, all of them do. Designers want their product to be recognizable, so that people know "oh yeah, that was definitely designed by that guy" And as I said, we have such a large diversity of identities in drum corps that there's an ideal spot for everyone who auditions for a corps 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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