Visual Individual Responsibility

[CrownBariDad]

2 minutes ago, 84BDsop said:

This.

To use an example from a different competitive activity...I'm a sabre fencer.  I also teach, and one thing I do on the strip -- and which i find very difficult to teach -- is the idea of "randomly" moving my blade around so my opponent doesn't quote know where I'm going to attack.  it may look random, but I know exactly where my blade is and can attack wherever I see an opening, especially is my opponent chases my blade.

Watch the first touch from this vid of a team sabre match (2017 worlds).  Hartung (on left) had no idea where Anstett (right) was going to go or when....but Anstett knew exactly what the plan was.   That takes thought and training, even though it looked entirely random. (note...France ended up winning this match 45-44...probably the greatest comeback I've ever seen...and it was only a round of 16 bout....not even quarter finals yet).

 

I love this!!! Fenced in college -- foil but I was an emergency stand-in for sabre when a teammate was sick. Learned a few sabre parries but mostly relied on a point attack which flummoxed more than a few opponents. Being a lefty probably helped, too.

OK -- don't want to derail the topic. Carry on. 

[scheherazadesghost]

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Edited September 1, 2022 by scheherazadesghost

[GUARDLING]

38 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

I know some folks are arguing that scatter drill can be lazy writing, and in some cases it can be. That doesn't mean it always is, BD being the champion example. The "scatter" is still just a moniker for what is very carefully planned and executed. They are some of the obvious masters here. But I think distinguishing between "lazy writing" and careful planning is important.

I still think scatter drill relies less on group effort for the effect, and more on the designers' grand vision. By it's very nature it allows for (or ideally celebrates) more individual expression and virtuosity.

Said another way: group achievement breaks down faster if there are discrepancies among MMs in technique, approach, mindset, or ability/injury... all of those things can be more easily masked by scatter drill. That's something I'd use to my advantage as a designer when needed. Any kind of drill can be made to look amazing under the care and laser focus of BD.

Now your fencing examples are super intriguing to me. If scatter drill is designed to be improvisational (which I didn't experience on the field) then yes, virtuosity and brilliance can really shine in the seeming-randomness. But this is still more focused on individual achievement right? You can't award the group for individual achievement because there's a different judge/rubric for that right? On the other side of things, if scatter drill is fully designed, then there may be less room for individual achievement... it's a only bit more about achieving your responsibilities as they relate the group.

But scatter drill is simply not as difficult to master as unison. By it's very nature it's adaptable and that's an excellent tool for designers, especially those with performers of varying abilities. I think folks here are arguing that scatter drill and unison shouldn't be worth the same on the sheets because, in general, the latter is more challenging than the former, not that's it's not difficult or valuable at all.

Agree with most of what you say till. ( highlighted ) I have designed both, taught both  for a veryyyyyyy long time and to make sense and a purpose of something that may look random is so difficult and to literally go to every performer and plan every pathway, relation of one member to another, communication, etc etc etc. is way harder than looking at a line curve circle and clean in mass. Harder to get a unison looking clean? Maybe not harder or easier maybe just different from one another. Different doesn't have to mean better or not as good either. Different is just different.

I think with some , when this scatter stuff first appeared it was a hot mess and many just said just get to the next set with little planning BUT that's not the same today, Not at all. JMO

Edited August 16, 2022 by GUARDLING

[scheherazadesghost]

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Edited September 1, 2022 by scheherazadesghost

[Hirsbrunner]

2 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Anyway, I'm curious to know your thoughts about Cavies and other corps regarding this topic.

Also, I don't think I put individual achievement and hitting your dot in the same bucket as it seems you do. That feels too competitive to me; and I never understood competition within the corps. In fact, the opposite. I think of hitting your dot as the capacity of each person to commit mentally and physically to group achievement for extended, arduous lengths of time. Same with dressing... the individual must relinquish control to the group whether written on the page or seen in the form.

The dot mindset actually can be the opposite of competition within the corps. When the culture is at its best it means that I will achieve my responsibilities to the highest level of accuracy and trust that those around me will do the same. 
 

To equate it to your jete example, if someone is not getting the same amount of lift or timing as the ensemble, then that is something for the individual to work on as addressed by staff (or self reflection) and adjusted to the desired and defined achievement. The ensemble achievement narrows in just as those that reference each other throughout the season. It is just a more personal journey of achievement, just like musically I wouldn’t always be able to listen across the field to match timing or style when spread out. 
 

Regarding Cavies, I think more towards the 2000s era where the visual intricacies, both individually and ensemble-wide, of those shows were the most successful examples of many of these above visual concepts. (Not a knock on current Cavies, I just don’t know how similar their approach is to then, and the activity is different now).
 

These are all about as far away as you can get from the approach of some other groups. It’s just a different method to the same end of cleanliness. My reason for bringing it up was that I was reevaluating my own thoughts regarding individual achievement vs. ensemble in terms of difficultly/content and how approach was a unique element of that. 

 

Which has since shifted in this thread more into a discussion of the merits of what visual contents should be rewarded. As it stands now, I feel like the groups that are rewarded the most display a variety of skills in both individual and ensemble achievement and don’t put any more eggs in each basket than needed to demonstrate said skill. Not sure how the visual sheets are currently oriented in relation to that. 

[GUARDLING]

37 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

As I was trying to find a cool vid like @84BDsop, I came across one that left me questioning myself and thinking exactly this. Thanks. I'm still on the fence it would appear.

Here's the vid. A masterful study in many things, least of all their use of unison, compliment, contrast, as well as sustained and sudden movements. All of it looks difficult to me.

 

for sure difficult...just a different difficult..Anything done well can look easy to many. BUT far from it

[scheherazadesghost]

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Edited September 1, 2022 by scheherazadesghost

[84BDsop]

2 hours ago, CrownBariDad said:

I love this!!! Fenced in college -- foil but I was an emergency stand-in for sabre when a teammate was sick. Learned a few sabre parries but mostly relied on a point attack which flummoxed more than a few opponents. Being a lefty probably helped, too.

OK -- don't want to derail the topic. Carry on. 

KNEW you'd chime in!

Wish me luck this season...I just aged into Vet 60 and plan to hit all three points events and see how far up the points list I get.  I'm probably not making the vet world team, tho!

[CrownBariDad]

38 minutes ago, 84BDsop said:

KNEW you'd chime in!

Wish me luck this season...I just aged into Vet 60 and plan to hit all three points events and see how far up the points list I get.  I'm probably not making the vet world team, tho!

Of course.

I would be in Vet 70 (sigh!) if I still fenced. I just HATE blade repairs -- I'm no armorer.

All the best this season!!!

[84BDsop]

4 minutes ago, CrownBariDad said:

I just HATE blade repairs -- I'm no armorer.

 

Yeah....that kinda IS one of my main jobs...I wired so many working for another vendor at nationals this year....