A world without GE

[ediblewaffles]

I saw a post on Reddit where someone decided to see how different scores and placements would have been in the Lucas Oil era (and 2008) if scores were 50% visual score and 50% music score on finals night. Here were his "main" takeaways

 

1. By getting rid of General Effect, the Blue Devils would have won every title in the Lucas Oil era outside of Babylon

2. Felliniesque would still break the scoring record, but the score would be a 99.417

3. Downside Up would fall to 3rd place

4. Inferno and Kinetic Noise would have tied with a 96.875

5. Side by Side and Les Miserable would have tied with a 97 in 2013

6. Tilt would never jump to 2nd

7. Spartacus would still win, this time by 0.125 over the Blue Devils. The Cavaliers with the underrated Samauri would be behind the Blue Devils by 0.208

 

I thought this was an intersting find and goes to show that Blue Devils just max it out from top to bottom

[Jeff Ream]

spot on

[TheOneWhoKnows]

This is actually really interesting

[Hirsbrunner]

Thanks for bringing this over, super interesting data. 

[ftwdrummer]

Hmm.

Something that would be harder to do the math on but might be interesting would be to look at how the numbers look if you shift to an older version of the brass/percussion/visual balance. E.g. something like a modification of the '92 sheets, where the GE balance was 25/15 music-visual, and visual was 20% of the score instead of 30%. You'd have to tweak the math some since those sheets didn't include color guard at all, though.

Something like: GE Visual (averaging the two "visual" judges)--15, GE Percussion (the percussion-based GE judge)--10, GE Brass 15; 20 points for percussion (perc and the percussion-based music analysis judge, averaged); 20 points for brass (brass and the brass-based music analysis judge, averaged); 20 points for visual (proficiency/analysis/guard, averaged).

I get the general sense that most folks here are music-first in their thinking about shows (there's a reason there's a "Music Corps Should Do" thread, after all), and that weighting might adjust things accordingly.

Might sit down with a spreadsheet sometime to work that out.

[Matt_S]

2 hours ago, ediblewaffles said:

Inferno and Kinetic Noise would have tied with a 96.875

Given that, I'm surprised Inferno finished in second because Kinetic Noise was the better show. Yes I will die on this hill.

[TheOneWhoKnows]

15 hours ago, Matt_S said:

Given that, I'm surprised Inferno finished in second because Kinetic Noise was the better show. Yes I will die on this hill.

Just like I die on my hill that I believe technically, Relentless was a better show and could've taken GE from Bluecoats had they kept the original ending. 

[Boss Anova]

18 hours ago, ediblewaffles said:

I saw a post on Reddit where someone decided to see how different scores and placements would have been in the Lucas Oil era (and 2008) if scores were 50% visual score and 50% music score on finals night. Here were his "main" takeaways

 

1. By getting rid of General Effect, the Blue Devils would have won every title in the Lucas Oil era outside of Babylon

2. Felliniesque would still break the scoring record, but the score would be a 99.417

3. Downside Up would fall to 3rd place

4. Inferno and Kinetic Noise would have tied with a 96.875

5. Side by Side and Les Miserable would have tied with a 97 in 2013

6. Tilt would never jump to 2nd

7. Spartacus would still win, this time by 0.125 over the Blue Devils. The Cavaliers with the underrated Samauri would be behind the Blue Devils by 0.208

 

I thought this was an intersting find and goes to show that Blue Devils just max it out from top to bottom

 

 

17 hours ago, ftwdrummer said:

Hmm.

Something that would be harder to do the math on but might be interesting would be to look at how the numbers look if you shift to an older version of the brass/percussion/visual balance. E.g. something like a modification of the '92 sheets, where the GE balance was 25/15 music-visual, and visual was 20% of the score instead of 30%. You'd have to tweak the math some since those sheets didn't include color guard at all, though.

Something like: GE Visual (averaging the two "visual" judges)--15, GE Percussion (the percussion-based GE judge)--10, GE Brass 15; 20 points for percussion (perc and the percussion-based music analysis judge, averaged); 20 points for brass (brass and the brass-based music analysis judge, averaged); 20 points for visual (proficiency/analysis/guard, averaged).

I get the general sense that most folks here are music-first in their thinking about shows (there's a reason there's a "Music Corps Should Do" thread, after all), and that weighting might adjust things accordingly.

Might sit down with a spreadsheet sometime to work that out.

 If we change up the sheets that dramatically, then the likelihood the Corps Show Designers would have simply adjusted their show designs accordingly in preparation for the season is strong. So the shows put together would likely look and a sound a bit different. DCI Corps like the sheets written as is. They voted for them. If they were not happy with the construct of the sheets in terms of distribution of Music, Visual, GE, Brass, Percussion, Guard, captions etc they would request, discuss, approve a different scoring  sheet to be utilized in their performance competition.

[Boss Anova]

 The biggest change I would like to see on the sheets is a return to the addition of a 2nd Percussion Judge to Regionals, and to Championships. It adds more balance to the percussion scores, imo.  Once DCI decided to take Percussion judges off the field and decided it was better for them in their caption to assess drumline battery performance execution levels essentially from a  further distance away rather than closer to the performers, then to no surprise we began to see more volatility in percussion scores from nite to nite. Had DCI chosen however to retain their 2nd percussion judge format at the Regionals and Championships, then perhaps there would have been more balance, imo. Were the quite evident volatility in Percussion scores among the Corps this season a function of percussion performance irregularities from show to show ? Perhaps. Or was it more likely Percussion judges are judging drumline batterys from further distances now, and in tandem with the the elimination of the 2nd percussion judge at big shows, the noticeable volatility now in the percussion shows scores is more a function of the change in how DCI now judges Percussion ? Maybe its a combination though too.. who knows. But I personally would like DCI Corps to vote to return to the 2 Percussion Judge format, especially at Indy. But thats not my call. They will have to decide what changes they want... if any.

[jwillis35]

44 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said:

Just like I die on my hill that I believe technically, Relentless was a better show and could've taken GE from Bluecoats had they kept the original ending. 

Crown 2016 (Relentless) was an amazing show. Certainly one of my favorites. I would have had no problem with them winning. I love the Bluecoats show also and I was glad they did win, but they were not nearly as tight and polished as Crown. Blue Devils 2016 show was pretty fun too, and fairly clean. It was a solid top 3. GE for Bloo was just legendary and that got them the nod. 

 

As for the OP, I don't think I would want to eliminate GE but that is an interesting study to take it out and just look at visual and music. From 1976 - 1986 the Blue Devils were the definition of performance quality. Brass, percussion, guard, and marching execution were their strengths. SCV could match that occasionally but it wasn't until Garfield Cadets changed the game in visual (especially the composition of the visual program) that GE took on new meaning. 

But from 2008 to now the Blue Devils still remain a force in performance captions. They march, spin, play, and drum at a very high level. Many other corps may do this well in 1 or 2 areas and then need a boost from their GE to stay on the heals of BD. For many years Garfield (then CBC, Cadets) were one of the few corps that could match BD in drums, be close in brass, and close or match them in guard, and then if Cadets had a slight edge in GE they could win or be close. It's why they had so many top 3 finishes. Same with Cavaliers during their runs in the 90s and early 2000s. 

This was the thing Boston did so well this summer. They had excellent performance caption strength in guard, brass, percussion, marching, to go along with an excellent overall program design. That's what it takes to jump into the top 3. You may not get to the Blue Devils level, but it gets you in the game.