Jeff Ream Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 29 minutes ago, Hook'emCavies said: True, but I would rather take the person who has heart and at least an ounce of talent. The longevity is better. As an example, i'm currently working with a kid that went down the WRONG path. I thought he looked familiar from the news, but it's not my business to look into his life as I have land tobpay for. Today he admitted to me that he did some stupid things in his life, went to jail multiple times, and just wants his GED, a good job, and some good money to live on for the rest of his life. The kid just turned 19... Don Warren, I believe, would have given him a shot. Yes, he would have needed to study, rehearsed, watched, and learned how to be better.... but what else is new to The Cavaliers or DCI? More or less, it's not about championships or placements.... it's about education. Teaching someone to be the best they can be is the greatest mission... I mean money funding you can come up with. placement is the over riding focus of most of the corps 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) . Edited June 12, 2023 by scheherazadesghost grammar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said: What a waste of an immensely precious learning experience for all. Lost to, ick, competition. Competition is valuable. It's the animating energy of the activity. The members love it because they love trying to be excellent, and competition is a natural way to promote excellence. Competition is rooted in human nature and we respond to it. And it works; the excellence on the field today is unquestioned. Like anything else, it is best enjoyed in moderation. As with many other elements of life, the culture around competition can be healthy or unhealthy. It unlocks hidden skill and confidence within some people, but it also unleashes insufferable egos and narrowed vision in others. It leads some to conclude that if you're not Top 12, you're not "successful." It's okay in my book for this thread to ask "who makes the Top 12?" because that's the system we have. Twelve has become a mythic number in this activity, for reasons that have been discussed at length in about nine million threads. It's also okay in my book to ask, "why do we even have finals at all?" because I believe the competitive energy of the activity that pushes performers toward personal excellence (personal excellence is what corps sell to students) does not require the artifice of a showcase of exactly twelve corps on the second Saturday of August. But that's another thread, not this one. I'm as happy as anyone else here to speculate on who makes Finals in 2023. I have my own expectations on it. What depresses me with unfailing annual regularity is the be-all value placed on it. Edited February 10, 2023 by 2muchcoffeeman 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scheherazadesghost Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: Competition is valuable. It's the animating energy of the activity. The members love it because they love trying to be excellent, and competition is a natural way to promote excellence. Competition is rooted in human nature and we respond to it. And it works; the excellence on the field today is unquestioned. Collaboration and empathy are also equally as rooted in human nature and they, potentially more than competition, are what built complex, lasting societies. Competition is simply not needed for excellence. 21 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: Like anything else, it is best enjoyed in moderation. As with many other elements of life, the culture around competition can be healthy or unhealthy. It unlocks hidden skill and confidence within some people, but it also unleashes insufferable egos and narrowed vision in others. It leads some to conclude that if you're not Top 12, you're not "successful." Is the healthy competition worth the downsides of toxic competition? The only thing competition unlocked in me (and too many others of my corps) was exploitation and lasting physical pain. Whether we were "winning" or "losing." 21 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: It's okay in my book for this thread to ask "who makes the Top 12?" because that's the system we have. Twelve has become a mythic number in this activity, for reasons that have been discussed at length in about nine million threads. It's also okay in my book to ask, "why do we even have finals at all?" because I believe the competitive energy of the activity that pushes performers toward personal excellence (personal excellence is what corps sell to students) does not require the artifice of a showcase of exactly twelve corps on the second Saturday of August. I didn't sign up to build personal excellence. Gross. I wanted to be on the field, working hard with a bunch of others of varying talent, toward the goal of completing a beautiful, rich, and powerful performance for ourselves and the audience. And I simply don't think that one member's healthy competition is worth the many downsides of toxic competition that have been described to me by victims from my own corps over the last 8 months. Of course, the question is totally fine to ask and never meant to imply otherwise. (I assume most folks just scroll past my thoughts anyway!) It's just, I'm clearly not the only one in this thread who has the freedom to express, "who cares? they're all great! The game is made up and the points don't matter!" And, despite the highest placing corps I was in getting 3rd, I never enjoyed the competition part: it was a means to and end. Ultimately, to me, it devalued both the artistry and the education that drum corps can provide while simultaneously driving our staff/leadership to push us too hard (with no oversight.) Then there are stories of old SCV staffers repeatedly punching the sides of our buses over scores they disagreed with... so there you have it. 21 hours ago, 2muchcoffeeman said: But that's another thread, not this one. I'm as happy as anyone else here to speculate on who makes Finals in 2023. I have my own expectations on it. What depresses me with unfailing annual regularity is the be-all value placed on it. Relying on a competitive model also means easy buy-in for the drum corps community, and perfectly mirrors our fast-paced, dog-eat-dog society. I totally get it. I also get that competitively-minded folks crave that competitive structure to fully engage. It's just... a little crude to me, and always has been. Perhaps sitting on the bus with a first-placing JONZ all tour affected me: they never talked about competition. Ever. And they never complained about carrying the rest of the corps to our bronze finish, which they undoubtedly did. Not once. Isn't that curious? Competition is also the way they organize which corps get how much ticket sales after shows, right? Can't forget that part. I know that every corps I see will leave me in awe of the performers' hard work no matter what their placement. And there are "low-placing" corps that will always blow the big dogs out of the water for me. Do I have to pick which lucky corps will take my sleeping corps' place while we're down and out in order to participate in this thread? Edited February 11, 2023 by scheherazadesghost After looking more closely into our alumni factions, I've chosen to stop glorifying JONZ. My point about competition still stands. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Anova Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 My enjoyment level of a Corps performance and show has never been predicated on placements . Lots of shows placed low with judges but that I enjoyed , and vice versa. Agree with the sentiment that competition does drive excellence , but it needs to tempered and understood that scores and placements are but one aspect of what can be derived in the learning experience . It’s not the end all and the be all . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 13 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: placement is the over riding focus of most of the corps Back when I marched we members seemed more interested in scores/placements than staff was. In retrospect in my advanced age, the discipline and work ethic the staff forced on us was what was really important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Holland Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, Hook'emCavies said: True, but I would rather take the person who has heart and at least an ounce of talent. The longevity is better. As an example, i'm currently working with a kid that went down the WRONG path. I thought he looked familiar from the news, but it's not my business to look into his life as I have land tobpay for. Today he admitted to me that he did some stupid things in his life, went to jail multiple times, and just wants his GED, a good job, and some good money to live on for the rest of his life. The kid just turned 19... Don Warren, I believe, would have given him a shot. Yes, he would have needed to study, rehearsed, watched, and learned how to be better.... but what else is new to The Cavaliers or DCI? More or less, it's not about championships or placements.... it's about education. Teaching someone to be the best they can be is the greatest mission... I mean money funding you can come up with. right. and that all looks great on paper. and it was great in 19... 20... right. It looks great when you apply for grants. and if you can prove you somewhat do that, you'll get at least some of that grant. welcome to 2023. This is "marching music's major (insert pun)". Those ideas are GREAT for open class, and necessary. They may even be necessary for those who placed 17-xx. But that's not what's happening. Certainly not in the top 6, likely not in the top 10, and honestly, very rarely in the next 5-6 groups as depending how many showed up to auditions, can do the work, and can afford it. This is a touring experience sold to high level talent first, and educational programming second. Read the sheets, look at the ads corps place throughout the year. Its design driven, talent chasing, broadway on a fake grass field, aimed towards talented performers under the age of 22. The only differences between auditioning for a top 12 corps or auditioning for RWS entertainment (who staffs cruises, amusement parks..etc) is that one charges you to show up. And it needs you to show up and pay, or it ceases to exist. Edited February 10, 2023 by C.Holland 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSnareDrummer Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 3 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said: Back when I marched we members seemed more interested in scores/placements than staff was. In retrospect in my advanced age, the discipline and work ethic the staff forced on us was what was really important. At least they wouldn't come right out and say it, let alone harp on it. That's what I thought anyway until I went on staff. Then every other thing said in private settings (which for us was usually over a 12-pack after Critique) was "How in the F did we lose to those knuckleheads?". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 11 hours ago, Boss Anova said: My enjoyment level of a Corps performance and show has never been predicated on placements . Lots of shows placed low with judges but that I enjoyed , and vice versa. Agree with the sentiment that competition does drive excellence , but it needs to tempered and understood that scores and placements are but one aspect of what can be derived in the learning experience . It’s not the end all and the be all . Agreed. My 4 favorite shows last year placed 9-12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook'emCavies Posted February 11, 2023 Share Posted February 11, 2023 7 hours ago, C.Holland said: right. and that all looks great on paper. and it was great in 19... 20... right. It looks great when you apply for grants. and if you can prove you somewhat do that, you'll get at least some of that grant. welcome to 2023. This is "marching music's major (insert pun)". Those ideas are GREAT for open class, and necessary. They may even be necessary for those who placed 17-xx. But that's not what's happening. Certainly not in the top 6, likely not in the top 10, and honestly, very rarely in the next 5-6 groups as depending how many showed up to auditions, can do the work, and can afford it. This is a touring experience sold to high level talent first, and educational programming second. Read the sheets, look at the ads corps place throughout the year. Its design driven, talent chasing, broadway on a fake grass field, aimed towards talented performers under the age of 22. The only differences between auditioning for a top 12 corps or auditioning for RWS entertainment (who staffs cruises, amusement parks..etc) is that one charges you to show up. And it needs you to show up and pay, or it ceases to exist. Smh..... kid, you have a lot to learn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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