Per the California Attorney General Vanguard is operating illegally as a non profit

[GBugler]

10 hours ago, DudleytheWest said:

DCI does stupid things that make it impossible for corps to survive and compete, such as increasing the membership numbers, props, electronics, etc.... That stuff ONLY benefits the top corps and hurts the lower tier corps. It has been like this since DCI's inception. That's the problem.

But..."innovation!" 🙄

 

 

[craiga]

10 hours ago, DudleytheWest said:

Yes, people have been saying this since the 70s because it's been TRUE since the 70s. Look at the number of corps that were around in the 70s compared with today. DCI does stupid things that make it impossible for corps to survive and compete, such as increasing the membership numbers, props, electronics, etc.... That stuff ONLY benefits the top corps and hurts the lower tier corps. It has been like this since DCI's inception. That's the problem. They've taken away the level playing field and they've taken away prospective members from the lower tier corps to feed the upper tier corps. The lower tier corps don't have the budgets to put on productions that make them competitive. Heck, the lower top 12 corps don't have the budgets to put on productions that can complete with Bluecoats and BD. DCI is frankly stupid, and the corps themselves are stupid.  

I mean good God every corps has to compete in quarters now because there's not enough corps to allow the top 12 from the prior year to sit quarters out. Every year it's getting smaller and smaller.

People have been saying it's the beginning of the end since the 70s. Vanguard IS the END of the END. We have arrived! Buckle up. It's here. 

I think it has been well established that props, electronics or raised maximum members had nothing to do with Vanguard's fate, especially given the fact that they had well over 300 members on the field last summer with TWO touring drum corps.

[jwillis35]

11 hours ago, DudleytheWest said:

They've taken away the level playing field and they've taken away prospective members from the lower tier corps to feed the upper tier corps. The lower tier corps don't have the budgets to put on productions that make them competitive. Heck, the lower top 12 corps don't have the budgets to put on productions that can complete with Bluecoats and BD. DCI is frankly stupid, and the corps themselves are stupid.  

I mean good God every corps has to compete in quarters now because there's not enough corps to allow the top 12 from the prior year to sit quarters out. Every year it's getting smaller and smaller.

People have been saying it's the beginning of the end since the 70s. Vanguard IS the END of the END. We have arrived! Buckle up. It's here. 

All valid points. I am not wild about the increased membership to 165. I get it from a bus standpoint that 55 seats x 3 charters = 165 so they might as well fill each bus and pull the extra revenue. I don't know that the extra cash really amounts to that much considering you have to feed those additional members not to mention extra space for housing, more instruments (whether it be brass, percussion, pit, or equipment for guard). Yes, it all pays for itself but how much gain is there when you get down to profit? I will leave that to those with better numbers than I have.

My preference is a max size of 150 for each corps. Even that feels too large considering I never had an issue with 128. But going over 150 is starting to feel too large for effective competition at this level. I don't see a problem with leaving a few seats empty on each Bus -- which can be used for other things. If drum corps can't make it work financially with 50 seats filled on each charter bus then they have other issues. If the health of the whole activity is a concern then I do think there should be some care taken with what the best max number should be. 

As a counterpoint to my objections above I can definitely hear some friends of mine saying "If the goal is to grow drum corps then let's fill those charters. Let's get more kids involved so corps outside of the top 12 can also fill those seats." 

As for your comment about Vanguard being the END of the END I certainly hope not. I do think the tides have shifted. The days of just running some bingo and recruiting kids from all over the country may not work anymore. I think building a local base is going to be important. I said this in an earlier post on this thread and I will say it again: I believe the long-term health of the Vanguard Organization will come from their local commitment to the Santa Clara/San Jose region and will be best served through their Cadet corps and other Youth initiatives. 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by jwillis35

[LabMaster]

I hope that comments on how dumb DCI is for what has been happening through the years is viewed with the understanding that there is a distinction for the assigning of the “dumb” characterization should placed on either DCI the org or DCI the corps.  Both can certainly be guilty of “dumb” by not looking at the immediate and long term impact of decisions or chosen direction.  DCI the corps are mostly responsible imo as they choose what benefits the few with little regard for those who are not in a position to join in the arms race, such as membership size, touring schedule and costs, instrumentation, electronics, so on and so forth.  Some have lead the way and been successful and aren’t concerned about the have nots.  Others have found a way, over a long time.  Others just can’t seem to get it together. DCI corps still control it.  DVI org does not.  The corps chose to go to 165 members.  And it doesn’t mean you must.  Can you afford it?  Corps chose giant FE’s, (4) 18 wheelers, huge massive props, expensive staff salaries.  The key word is “chose”.  Could DCI the org stopped them?  Maybe, but likely not.  It’s not their role and DCI the corps, wouldn’t allow it.

My point is, when criticizing or blaming DCI for all the activities ills (and there are plenty),  be sure which DCI is responsible for what is being pointed out.  
 

Now back to regular programming of the failings of SCV.

[cixelsyd]

3 hours ago, craiga said:

I think it has been well established that props, electronics or raised maximum members had nothing to do with Vanguard's fate, especially given the fact that they had well over 300 members on the field last summer with TWO touring drum corps.

What is established is that Vanguard spent faster than they could afford.  Unless props/electronics were supplied, designed, transported and operated completely free of any cost, you cannot say they had "nothing" to do with it.

[JimF-LowBari]

3 hours ago, GBugler said:

But..."innovation!" 🙄

 

 

“Musics Major League” 🤦‍♂️🤪😵‍💫

[Terri Schehr]

3 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Point of fact: neither DCI's nor VMAPA's missions mention youth. Sure it's intended or implied, but technically neither are obligated by their missions to serve youth directly.

This is why mission statements are important.

I’m out of the loop and barely care but the activity used to serve youth. 

[scheherazadesghost]

10 minutes ago, Terri Schehr said:

I’m out of the loop and barely care but the activity used to serve youth. 

Yeah, apologies Terri. I didn't mean for that to read as confrontational as it does.

I 100% agree, it did used to serve youth as its primary directive. I think that's still there, but it's buried under a bunch of buzz word goo and mission creep.

[scheherazadesghost]

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Edited May 18, 2023 by scheherazadesghost

[Terri Schehr]

46 minutes ago, scheherazadesghost said:

Yeah, apologies Terri. I didn't mean for that to read as confrontational as it does.

I 100% agree, it did used to serve youth as its primary directive. I think that's still there, but it's buried under a bunch of buzz word goo and mission creep.

No, I’m just being honest.  I didn’t think you were being confrontational.  I’ve become very ambivalent about the activity.  I guess it’s showing.