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When does it end with SCV??????


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27 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

agree. and hopefully staff did discuss things before hand. also WGI retreat is chaotic, and staff isn't always right there like at DCI. DCI you have 12 corps spread out over a football field. in WGI you have 30 groups crammed onto an arena floor. i'm not excusing Infinity members at all, and not totally absolving staff. i know i've seen WGI groups told flat out at warmups no partying before retreat. Sadly, kids will do stupid things. yeah Infinity was excited...first time beating one of the icons of the genre. United had every reason to be ###### losing to MCM ( look at the recap), but they held it together. But no matter what staff did or didn't do, the kids should know better too. 

I'm definitely not diminishing individual responsibility. I know and care for alum who made bad, youthful decisions when we were younger.

It just doesn't strike me as good leadership to place greater accountability on the young adult member than the full adult staffers, especially when safety was at risk. Are we seriously saying everyone nearby on staff thought the grocery cart was a good idea or somehow just didn't see it at all?

Either way, accountability goes beyond training and most corps could use a thorough update to their substance use violation policies and protocols. The activity has quite a legacy on the matter and continuing to shuffle accountability never helps.

Edited by scheherazadesghost
changed golf cart to grocery cart
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11 hours ago, gbass598 said:

There is this:

and multiples rumors of being highly intoxicated, which is generally the fuel for such behavior to occur. I'm sure WGI wasn't going to address that in their statement to draw attention to it.

You can be extremely good at something and still be an a**hole. If members are just a**holes who chose to get sh*tfaced after the final performance, all you can do it ban them from coming back the next season at that point.

I think Bluecoats had similar issues during Mike McIntosh's final season (2008) and that ultimately led to him resigning because the attitude of the members was frustrating for the staff from what I recall. I could be wrong but I heard a lot of those members were real jerks.

Infinity is certainly not the first to act like this and probably not the last but not everyone is smart. Just remember that some of these members also probably march drum corps.

Adding to @gbass598 post, here's video from the awards ceremony.  Infinity has the guy in the shopping cart with MCM to their right.  In my opinion, ridiculously unacceptable behavior. 🤦‍♂️

 

     

Edited by keystone3ply
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Interesting thread. I know none of the players involved. Apparently a lot of inappropriate behavior probably fueled by “John Barleycorn.”  If the person being cited by the OP was in some position of responsibility for that group then she should be accountable for it. And that would be the tie to SCV, who apparently has brought her on board?  Responsibility is a funny thing. You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you. If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else.  Those are not my words. That’s from Hyman Rickover. If you are not familiar with him I invite you to look him up. 

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I do not see what this has to do with SCV.  

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47 minutes ago, HockeyDad said:

Interesting thread. I know none of the players involved. Apparently a lot of inappropriate behavior probably fueled by “John Barleycorn.”  If the person being cited by the OP was in some position of responsibility for that group then she should be accountable for it. And that would be the tie to SCV, who apparently has brought her on board?  Responsibility is a funny thing. You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you. If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else.  Those are not my words. That’s from Hyman Rickover. If you are not familiar with him I invite you to look him up. 

She has been with the org for a while now. I won't personally defend her here cause I have zero connection, but I get the sense that many alum would. Specifically for her role last season.

That said, I literally can't paint a clearer picture of Vanguard's legacy of risking staff and member safety (substances included or not, take your pick) without being censored. Everywhere. The board has never been held accountable for this, nor staff, because there is no governing body with drum corps in its jurisdiction.

Thus, retaining a staffer who directed a group that is now on 2 years' probation for risking their own and others' safety requires a closer look at policy and procedure everywhere. At least, that's what any responsible leader's reaction to this should be. If she enthusiastically complies with all required training, that's a great first step.

Again though, the video training doesn't prepare anyone for dynamic, real world scenarios. Period. That's not what they're designed for. Are staffers prepared to pull a star performer who violates policy? Is there a written policy and procedure for what to do in that case no matter the location? Are all staff and members informed of this policy? Does the org have signed agreement of said specific policy? Etc.

Future Vanguard members deserve at least that. I personally argue they deserve more, given our history.

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2 hours ago, keystone3ply said:

Adding to @gbass598 post, here's video from the awards ceremony.  Infinity has the guy in the shopping cart with MCM to their right.  In my opinion, ridiculously unacceptable behavior. 🤦‍♂️

 

     

I don't follow WGI, so I'm looking for information.

Does anyone know if there's "bad blood" between the 2 groups ?

Infinity's reaction also seems a bit "over the top" for a 4th place finish .

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, HockeyDad said:

Interesting thread. I know none of the players involved. Apparently a lot of inappropriate behavior probably fueled by “John Barleycorn.”  If the person being cited by the OP was in some position of responsibility for that group then she should be accountable for it. And that would be the tie to SCV, who apparently has brought her on board?  Responsibility is a funny thing. You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you. If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else.  Those are not my words. That’s from Hyman Rickover. If you are not familiar with him I invite you to look him up. 

At first Pentagon job we were in Crystal City across street as Pentagon was being renovated; building we were in was same one Adm Rickover had used.  
 

His philosophy could be summarized as ‘The buck stops here’.  

Edited by IllianaLancerContra
Clarity
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I just watched the video above and I agree, the shopping cart was in bad taste as well as a potential hazard to the member in it as well as members around it, but the underlying thing that I can't help but note....

 

Back when there used to be a full retreat at every show, members were taught early how to maintain proper decorum during retreat. That seems to be missing these days.

 

Yes, we all remember flying elbows during the pass through, but the shenanigans ended on the track. Once you were back on the field, all games came to an end. The staff wasn't on the field to police your actions, the veteran membership did that.

 

Now, the veteran members don't even know how to act. Perhaps full retreats should be occurring more often? Perhaps regional should have full retreats so that the members start learning what is expected of them before they get to finals??

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3 hours ago, ECJ94 said:

 

 

Yes, we all remember flying elbows during the pass through, but the shenanigans ended on the track. Once you were back on the field, all games came to an end. The staff wasn't on the field to police your actions, the veteran membership did that.

 

Our shenanigans on the track were to increase interval so our file was as long as Phantom, Madison, etc.  Us contras were in the back so it fell on us to ensure this happened. 

Edited by IllianaLancerContra
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Same problem, different resource: https://thecpsu.org.uk/media/445556/web_cpsustandards.pdf

Code of ethics, linked procedures spelled out for staff... this is all stuff I've been harping on about for the last year.

And yes, I'm aware this is a resource that pertains to minors. The pageantry arts must do a better job of customizing their safeguarding strategies because they serve hybrid age groups.

College and pro athletes have pretty strict conduct to follow and, because more money is on the line, stricter penalties. Teams and coaches are culpable for their rowdy individual team mates. Or... the military has this down to a science, even if imperfect. And while none of these systems will apply to drum corps apples-to-apples, they're all further along in development and no one has to reinvent the wheel to drive improvements.

It starts at not placing full blame on the individual member. Ultimately, they're still the young customer who violated policy and they should have been fully informed of exactly what would happen as a result. However, the staff also have a responsibility to act in the best interest of member safety immediately and always. Why weren't these members pulled? Wasn't that in the policy and procedure?

So sure, they can either comply to requiered training or show they've done it themselves. At this point, video training is rock bottom minimum, given the industry's history.

Better to seek the advice of those with real world safeguarding experience than rely on canned training videos. Ya know, like some of us who have been blowing the whistle or others who express concern to me more quietly. I'm waaay not the only one. Just from Vanguard alum alone.

Employers should seek this skillset out and prospective or current employees could both benefit professional development in this area. More importantly, the members benefit.

Personally, I wasn't worried for my safety at retreats. We were often cat called in 04 by other corps though. Staff just let it happen, it seems.

Edited by scheherazadesghost
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