Carolina Crown 2024

[Vuitton]

5 hours ago, WarriorWay said:

I think the entire design staff needs to be let go

I'm not so sure about that, but Crown needs an entirely new approach next year. That I know for certain. That is - if they want to win. Is that the objective here? It doesn't have to be. I'm fine with what they are doing on the field. I loved certain parts of their show last night, and not others. I could say that about everyone.  

I just think it's impossible to compete with the other three in terms of design. I'm not being mean or nasty, it just is a fact! This show cannot place in the top 3. With all the subjectivity in judging today, execution takes a back seat to design when you have four corps all executing at the highest levels. Design alone is the tie breaker, and design alone can make the difference between winning GE and/or Visual, and placing 4th in those captions for these four corps.

That being said, I think we have to put things in perspective here. They placed 4th last night and I believe they will place 4th at Indy. FOURTH! My God, we are talking about a 4th place corps. I remember in the 80s when Madison placed 4th in '85 (after three consecutive 5th place finishes) and I was thrilled. All I cared about, competitively, in '88 was placing 4th, because that would likely mean we would beat Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment and Star of Indiana. I would have been elated if we were 4th at finals. I mean I was really elated with the actual outcome, but I would have walked out of that stadium with a huge smile on my face had we placed 4th. If Madison was a 4th place corps today, I would be doing cartwheels down the road. Crown IS in an envious position.

Whether 1st or 4th, Crown is one of the best corps in the activity, and has consistently been. They have also consistently been one of the crowd favorites.

All this is to say, whether Crown is doing well or not depends on how you look at it. If you want them to win, then maybe they aren't doing so well, but if you don't care about scores and placements, then they are doing very well. I would say Crown is doing pretty #### well.

Edited July 17 by Vuitton

[NewArpege]

22 minutes ago, Vuitton said:

I'm not so sure about that, but Crown needs an entirely new approach next year. That I know for certain. That is - if they want to win. Is that the objective here? It doesn't have to be. I'm fine with what they are doing on the field. I loved certain parts of their show last night, and not others. I could say that about everyone.  

I just think it's impossible to compete with the other three in terms of design. I'm not being mean or nasty, it just is a fact! This show cannot place in the top 3. With all the subjectivity in judging today, execution takes a back seat to design when you have four corps all executing at the highest levels. Design alone is the tie breaker, and design alone can make the difference between winning GE and/or Visual, and placing 4th in those captions for these four corps.

That being said, I think we have to put things in perspective here. They placed 4th last night and I believe they will place 4th at Indy. FOURTH! My God, we are talking about a 4th place corps. I remember in the 80s when Madison placed 4th in '85 (after three consecutive 5th place finishes) and I was thrilled. All I cared about, competitively, in '88 was placing 4th, because that would likely mean we would beat Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment and Star of Indiana. I would have been elated if we were 4th at finals. I mean I was really elated with the actual outcome, but I would have walked out of that stadium with a huge smile on my face had we placed 4th. If Madison was a 4th place corps today, I would be doing cartwheels down the road. Crown IS in an envious position.

Whether 1st or 4th Crown is one of the best corps in the activity, and has consistently been. They have also consistently been one of the crowd favorites.

All this is to say, whether Crown is doing well or not depends on how you look at it. If you want them to win, then maybe they aren't doing so well, but if you don't care about scores and placements, then they are doing very well. I would say Crown is doing pretty #### well.

I like the way you explained your perspective.

You hit a nail on the head about an unspoken mission that many of us support in what Crown does.  We want to see music as the center of activity and not wgi design.  We favor preserving marching arts over staging.  Crown stands out from all other top corps because the approach is so different and distinctive, with only a couple corps like SCV and the Cavies showcasing these styles.

Theres a lot of great moments popping up in this show, and more of that is to come. The only thing I’ll disagree with you on that its limit is 4th place.  People said that about Camelot too, and this show has loads more scoring potential than it did.  Crowns show is brutally hard across the board from design to music because it all has to align to a theatrical level storytelling. If Crown does pull all those pieces together just right, the judges will reward them accordingly…and I don’t think there’s a ceiling for that scenario.

We fans just need to brace ourselves.  This show isn’t gonna peak until Finals night. We need to support them while they make this final push….and whatever the placement is, that’s ok as long as they put the best product on the field.
 

 

[TigerBaritone19]

10 minutes ago, NewArpege said:

I like the way you explained your perspective.

You hit a nail on the head about an unspoken mission that many of us support in what Crown does.  We want to see music as the center of activity and not wgi design.  We favor preserving marching arts over staging.  Crown stands out from all other top corps because the approach is so different and distinctive, with only a couple corps like SCV and the Cavies showcasing these styles.

Theres a lot of great moments popping up in this show, and more of that is to come. The only thing I’ll disagree with you on that its limit is 4th place.  People said that about Camelot too, and this show has loads more scoring potential than it did.  Crowns show is brutally hard across the board from design to music because it all has to align to a theatrical level storytelling. If Crown does pull all those pieces together just right, the judges will reward them accordingly…and I don’t think there’s a ceiling for that scenario.

We fans just need to brace ourselves.  This show isn’t gonna peak until Finals night. We need to support them while they make this final push….and whatever the placement is, that’s ok as long as they put the best product on the field.
 

 

For me, I just want to be entertained. Would I love for them to win? Of course! But it’s not the end all be all. If the music is really good (which is usually is) then I will keep listening to it year after year. Crown got 4th in 2019 and it’s one of my favorite Crown shows. The music was fantastic, the closer was electric and it’s just a fun show. This show has the potential, unfortunately it hasn’t happened yet, but I fully believe it will happen by finals, if not before. Allentown last year is when that show finally clicked in all facets. The show this year isn’t supposed to be a direct Prometheus show but it’s still a story show, and it’s just not quite telling the story well enough YET. The outline is there, you can follow it, but the storyline gets muddy in the 2nd movement (for me at least). I know what the second movement is supposed to be, but it’s just not coming across clear enough. Crown has my full support and I look forward to seeing what else they add. If they get 4th, they get 4th. It happens. 4th isn’t like missing finals. 
 

What I don’t get is when other drum corps fans want Crown to do something different, then they do something different (2022) and then those fans want them to go back to the “old” Crown. And the people saying they should stop doing epic shows, and this only the 2nd one since 2016. Crown will be Crown. They will do what they want, as will other corps. Crown doesn’t need to conform to the staging style shows that are popular. I’d much rather watch Crown finish 3 or 4 and run around and play insane music than park and blow and move a ton of props around. Keep in mind, this is a new program coordinator and the synergy will only get better with the existing design staff. The drill needs to be more dynamic, whether that means Sacktig leaves or changes things up next year, but Sacktig is a Hall of Famer for a reason. 
 

All of that to say, keep pushing! Full support from this Crown fan no matter what. Go Crown! 🔥🔥

[Vuitton]

37 minutes ago, NewArpege said:

I like the way you explained your perspective.

You hit a nail on the head about an unspoken mission that many of us support in what Crown does.  We want to see music as the center of activity and not wgi design.  We favor preserving marching arts over staging.  Crown stands out from all other top corps because the approach is so different and distinctive, with only a couple corps like SCV and the Cavies showcasing these styles.

Theres a lot of great moments popping up in this show, and more of that is to come. The only thing I’ll disagree with you on that its limit is 4th place.  People said that about Camelot too, and this show has loads more scoring potential than it did.  Crowns show is brutally hard across the board from design to music because it all has to align to a theatrical level storytelling. If Crown does pull all those pieces together just right, the judges will reward them accordingly…and I don’t think there’s a ceiling for that scenario.

We fans just need to brace ourselves.  This show isn’t gonna peak until Finals night. We need to support them while they make this final push….and whatever the placement is, that’s ok as long as they put the best product on the field.

You're not going get an argument from me on the first paragraph. I like both types of design, but it seems like the Crown style of design doesn't get rewarded as much. Well, it doesn't doesn't just seem like it - look at last night, and 2017-2023. I wish it wasn't that way, because it limits design variation.

People said that about Camelot (finishing 4th) and they finished 3rd, so they weren't too far off. People have also said Crown was going to place 4th in 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2022, and they placed 4th all of those years. Anyway, Camelot was my favorite show last year, and I do think it's better than this year's show. But, in my opinion, what I think kept them out of 4th last year was execution and what kept them out of 2nd was design. To me, Boston and Crown had similar designs in terms of structure last year, and Crown out-executing Boston vaulted Crown to 3rd. I also think design is what kept Crown out of 2nd. We saw last year (and many years before) the judges preferring the designs of Bluecoats and Devils to that of Crown. Do we really think BD and Bluecoats out-executed Crown and Boston? I'm not so sure. I don't think what judges reward has changed this year. What's changed is Boston and their design. They have a design that is on par with Blue Devils and Bluecoats, Crown does not.

After last night, I just don't see any path to Crown finishing higher than 4th. They were 4th in GE, Visual, Brass, Percussion and Music, and 3rd in Guard. I do think it's likely they will finish higher than 4th in brass at finals, and perhaps a possibility they could finish higher than 3rd in guard, but I do not see them higher than 4th in GE and Visual, I don't know much about percussion, and I'm not sure winning brass would be enough to vault them to 3rd. This year, it looks like Devils won't be winning almost all subcaptions, which means more 1s and 2s for Bluecoats and Boston, and the more 1s and 2s they have, the less of an impact Crown's brass scores will have on Crown's overall placement. It's just going to be really, really tough for them to make up enough ground across all captions to medal. Adding in characters and cleaning isn't going to be enough.

Edited July 18 by Vuitton

[NewArpege]

6 minutes ago, TigerBaritone19 said:

For me, I just want to be entertained. Would I love for them to win? Of course! But it’s not the end all be all. If the music is really good (which is usually is) then I will keep listening to it year after year. Crown got 4th in 2019 and it’s one of my favorite Crown shows. The music was fantastic, the closer was electric and it’s just a fun show. This show has the potential, unfortunately it hasn’t happened yet, but I fully believe it will happen by finals, if not before. Allentown last year is when that show finally clicked in all facets. The show this year isn’t supposed to be a direct Prometheus show but it’s still a story show, and it’s just not quite telling the story well enough YET. The outline is there, you can follow it, but the storyline gets muddy in the 2nd movement (for me at least). I know what the second movement is supposed to be, but it’s just not coming across clear enough. Crown has my full support and I look forward to seeing what else they add. If they get 4th, they get 4th. It happens. 4th isn’t like missing finals. 
 

What I don’t get is when other drum corps fans want Crown to do something different, then they do something different (2022) and then those fans want them to go back to the “old” Crown. And the people saying they should stop doing epic shows, and this only the 2nd one since 2016. Crown will be Crown. They will do what they want, as will other corps. Crown doesn’t need to conform to the staging style shows that are popular. I’d much rather watch Crown finish 3 or 4 and run around and play insane music than park and blow and move a ton of props around. Keep in mind, this is a new program coordinator and the synergy will only get better with the existing design staff. The drill needs to be more dynamic, whether that means Sacktig leaves or changes things up next year, but Sacktig is a Hall of Famer for a reason. 
 

All of that to say, keep pushing! Full support from this Crown fan no matter what. Go Crown! 🔥🔥

F*ck yea!  Very aligned.

[NewArpege]

3 minutes ago, Vuitton said:

You're not going get an argument from me on the first paragraph. I like both types of design, but it seems like the Crown style of design doesn't get rewarded as much. Well, it doesn't doesn't just seem like it - look at last night, and 2017-2023. I wish it wasn't that way, because it limits design variation.

People said that about Camelot (finishing 4th) and they finished 3rd, so they weren't too far off. People have also said Crown was going to place 4th in 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2022, and they placed 4th all of those years. Anyway, Camelot was my favorite show last year, and I do think it's better than this year's show. But, in my opinion, what I think kept them out of 4th last year was execution and what kept them out of 2nd was design. To me, Boston and Crown had similar designs in terms of structure last year, and Crown out-executing Boston vaulted Crown to 3rd. I also think design is what kept Crown out of 2nd. We saw last year (and many years before) the judges preferring the designs of Bluecoats and Devils to that of Crown. Do we really think BD and Bluecoats out-executed Crown and Boston? I'm not so sure. I don't think what judges reward has changed this year. What's changed is Boston and their design. They have a design that is on par with Blue Devils and Bluecoats, Crown does not.

After last night, I just don't see any path to Crown finishing higher than 4th. They were 4th in GE, Visual, Brass, Percussion and Music, and 3rd in Guard. I do think it's likely they will finish higher than 4th in brass at finals, and perhaps a possibility they could finish higher than 3rd in guard, but I do not see them higher than 4th in GE and Visual, I don't know much about percussion, and I'm not sure winning brass would be enough to vault them to 3rd. This year, it looks like Devils won't be winning almost all subcaptions, which means more 1s and 2s for Bluecoats and Boston, and the more 1s and 2s they have, the less of an impact Crown's brass scores will have. It's just going to be really, really tough for them to make up enough ground across all captions to medal. Adding in characters and cleaning isn't going to be enough.

What’ll happen, will happen.  Placements aren’t as important to me as being entertained and keeping with the unspoken mission I laid out.  I’m super happy with this season.  Not a single show that I dislike, and the top 7 are f’n fire. As a broader drum corp fan, we already won this year with really great shows across the board. 

[Vuitton]

8 minutes ago, TigerBaritone19 said:

For me, I just want to be entertained. Would I love for them to win? Of course! But it’s not the end all be all. If the music is really good (which is usually is) then I will keep listening to it year after year. Crown got 4th in 2019 and it’s one of my favorite Crown shows. The music was fantastic, the closer was electric and it’s just a fun show. This show has the potential, unfortunately it hasn’t happened yet, but I fully believe it will happen by finals, if not before. Allentown last year is when that show finally clicked in all facets. The show this year isn’t supposed to be a direct Prometheus show but it’s still a story show, and it’s just not quite telling the story well enough YET. The outline is there, you can follow it, but the storyline gets muddy in the 2nd movement (for me at least). I know what the second movement is supposed to be, but it’s just not coming across clear enough. Crown has my full support and I look forward to seeing what else they add. If they get 4th, they get 4th. It happens. 4th isn’t like missing finals. 
 

What I don’t get is when other drum corps fans want Crown to do something different, then they do something different (2022) and then those fans want them to go back to the “old” Crown. And the people saying they should stop doing epic shows, and this only the 2nd one since 2016. Crown will be Crown. They will do what they want, as will other corps. Crown doesn’t need to conform to the staging style shows that are popular. I’d much rather watch Crown finish 3 or 4 and run around and play insane music than park and blow and move a ton of props around. Keep in mind, this is a new program coordinator and the synergy will only get better with the existing design staff. The drill needs to be more dynamic, whether that means Sacktig leaves or changes things up next year, but Sacktig is a Hall of Famer for a reason. 
 

All of that to say, keep pushing! Full support from this Crown fan no matter what. Go Crown! 🔥🔥

That 2019 show was great. One of my favorites, if not my favorite, from the season. 

Question for you - What do you think was so different about RHRN compared to Crown's other offerings? I'm not being facetious. I am asking because you might be able to open my eyes to something I am missing. To me RHRN was a misguided attempt to try and boost GE scores (or so it seemed). But, it terms of visual structure and drill, I really don't see any difference any year from 2017 to today. All of their visual packages look the same or very similar year over year. Now, in fairness, you can say this about a lot of corps today. But, the reason I'm bringing it up is if the objective is to win, then Crown needs to do something different as it's been proven they can't win doing what they are doing.

[Vuitton]

3 minutes ago, NewArpege said:

What’ll happen, will happen.  Placements aren’t as important to me as being entertained and keeping with the unspoken mission I laid out.  I’m super happy with this season.  Not a single show that I dislike, and the top 7 are f’n fire. As a broader drum corp fan, we already won this year with really great shows across the board. 

Yep and that's great. I love listening to Crown brass, but I could mute Flo and just watch the guard, in silence, the whole show with a big smile on my face.

[NewArpege]

Just now, Vuitton said:

Yep and that's great. I love listening to Crown brass, but I could mute Flo and just watch the guard, in silence, the whole show with a big smile on my face.

I absolutely cannot wait to hear this book played with Crown brass at their best. It’s going to magical.  And guard is killing it. They have some cool tricks in there. 

[TigerBaritone19]

1 minute ago, Vuitton said:

That 2019 show was great. One of my favorites, if not my favorite, from the season. 

Question for you - What do you think was so different about RHRN compared to Crown's other offerings? I'm not being facetious. I am asking because you might be able to open my eyes to something I am missing. To me RHRN was a misguided attempt to try and boost GE scores (or so it seemed). But, it terms of visual structure and drill, I really don't see any difference any year from 2017 to today. All of their visual packages look the same or very similar year over year. Now, in fairness, you can say this about a lot of corps today. But, the reason I'm bringing it up is if the objective is to win, then Crown needs to do something different as it's been proven they can't win doing what they are doing.

It was different because they focused solely on audience participation. I went to one of their camps before Covid and they mentioned it was something completely different and never done in the activity before (at that point the app wasn’t announced). I agree the visual package was similar but the aspect of the show was so different from what Crown had done before. It didn’t work (for many reasons, not just the app not catching on as well as they had hoped) and they went to a more traditional style show and got 3rd the next year. To me, it just seems that whatever Crown does year to year, people will want them to do the opposite. Not everyone, but some will say Crown needs to do X y and z if they want to compete with Bloo or BD but they still do compete with them. Almost got Bloo last year and those shows could not have been more opposite from each other. There are aspects that Crown could do to modernize their designs a little bit. I think more integration of props but not to the extent of Bloo because Crown wants the brass to play a lot and having the members push props around for half the show probably isn’t what they want to do. If they think they can win with the shows they are putting out, then that’s fine. I’d rather them keep doing their thing than conform just to win gold.