It’s only fair I come out from under my rock for Mandarins

[Jeff Ream]

18 hours ago, perc2100 said:

I agree, a salary cap would _maybe_ fix a small part of the problem, but I agree that the larger issues with drum and bugle corps in the 21st century.  I honestly don't know what, if anything, is a "relatively easy" fix for the financial problem, and I agree with others this isn't necessarily a 21st century problem: this was problematic in the 80's and 90's, maybe always though now w/likely more expenses (better food, more staff & gear, insurance, etc).

WGI has such a great model, I think, with weekend-only show, localish membership & rehearsal facilities, etc.  It's still expensive for a season (an Independent World org from, say, SoCA is still spending several hundreds of thousands of dollars a year), but maybe this is a more viable model for drum corps in the future.  A radical change, for sure: one that would necessitate a very different performance model, membership model, etc.  But perhaps the most tenable long-term model.

Or not, IDK.  Maybe it's been a long, fun 50+ year ride and reality is _finally_ setting in.  Maybe something like G7 is a viable model, with smaller shows & tour, less corps, more fan-friendly designs + more community engagement maybe, IDK.  This is obviously not an easy problem to solve, but I'm not 100% if the activity has legit tried to solve the problem (or wants to)

i think they all want to but too many conflicting agendas to truly agree on a path forward, because those that have figured out how to capitalize on funding outside of just tour will blow away those that haven't.  And even then there's conflicting agendas in those subsects. 

 

and the fear of "what if this ends up worse?"

[Jeff Ream]

17 hours ago, perc2100 said:

And that's because 1) who does DCI and its member corps actually serve and 2) who actually benefits from its performances and competitions.  NY Phil, CSO, etc. have long traditions of excellence but a symphony isn't anywhere near as niche as DCI.  Not to mention most, if not all, symphonies, have adapted their model to pull in more broader audiences.  Sure, NY Phil may have an esoteric world premier concert that celebrates 21st century music that might not fill the hall, but they'll also have "Star Wars w/the symphony" that will sell out.  DCI is a niche of a niche of a niche entertainment option as it is, and their programming isn't exactly friendly to newbies and folks off-the-street.  At least in the old days (which I agree where not rosy, and in likely many cases worse than nowadays just with more corps) performances included more recognizable and audience-friendly music.  Even if not super-well known, I could show my grandpa a VHS of Cadets 1995 show + populist John Williams movie music (that he wasn't familiar with) mixed with the 'day in the life of a small town prepping to send their boy to war' was a show he could really enjoy.  Madison Scouts Latin show entertained him.  SCV's NOT The Nutcracker, not so much.  That's just a small sample of one year 30 years ago, and arguably shows from the 80's or 70's were even more crowd-friendly than 1990's. 

But I guess what I'm saying is that DCI has moved further away from things that kind of helped balance out their niche entertainment.  Even Bluecoats Beatles show a few years ago mashed so many songs in a short span of time, a die-hard Beatles fan like my mom (OG Beatle maniac she was as a girl in the 60's) was only marginally entertained: vs Bluecoats early 90's Beatles show that she loved.  When we think about it's it's almost bizarrely impressive how DCI hasn't really tried to appeal to a broader audience, and instead if moving further away from broad accessibility . 

Until it does, there is ZERO reason for any big businesses or donors to step up and sponsor corps or DCI: why throw money away on a non-civic non-profit org that has little/no mass-market appeal, doesn't do much for the local community, and isn't really visible in any way whatsoever outside of its rabid tiny fanbase

the problem with moving to a more popular based music scenario jacks up the costs due to licensing.

[LabMaster]

17 hours ago, perc2100 said:

And that's because 1) who does DCI and its member corps actually serve and 2) who actually benefits from its performances and competitions.  NY Phil, CSO, etc. have long traditions of excellence but a symphony isn't anywhere near as niche as DCI.  Not to mention most, if not all, symphonies, have adapted their model to pull in more broader audiences.  Sure, NY Phil may have an esoteric world premier concert that celebrates 21st century music that might not fill the hall, but they'll also have "Star Wars w/the symphony" that will sell out.  DCI is a niche of a niche of a niche entertainment option as it is, and their programming isn't exactly friendly to newbies and folks off-the-street.  At least in the old days (which I agree where not rosy, and in likely many cases worse than nowadays just with more corps) performances included more recognizable and audience-friendly music.  Even if not super-well known, I could show my grandpa a VHS of Cadets 1995 show + populist John Williams movie music (that he wasn't familiar with) mixed with the 'day in the life of a small town prepping to send their boy to war' was a show he could really enjoy.  Madison Scouts Latin show entertained him.  SCV's NOT The Nutcracker, not so much.  That's just a small sample of one year 30 years ago, and arguably shows from the 80's or 70's were even more crowd-friendly than 1990's. 

But I guess what I'm saying is that DCI has moved further away from things that kind of helped balance out their niche entertainment.  Even Bluecoats Beatles show a few years ago mashed so many songs in a short span of time, a die-hard Beatles fan like my mom (OG Beatle maniac she was as a girl in the 60's) was only marginally entertained: vs Bluecoats early 90's Beatles show that she loved.  When we think about it's it's almost bizarrely impressive how DCI hasn't really tried to appeal to a broader audience, and instead if moving further away from broad accessibility . 

Until it does, there is ZERO reason for any big businesses or donors to step up and sponsor corps or DCI: why throw money away on a non-civic non-profit org that has little/no mass-market appeal, doesn't do much for the local community, and isn't really visible in any way whatsoever outside of its rabid tiny fanbase

Until it does, there is ZERO reason for any big businesses or donors to step up and sponsor corps or DCI: why throw money away on a non-civic non-profit org that has little/no mass-market appeal, doesn't do much for the local community, and isn't really visible in any way whatsoever outside of its rabid tiny fanbase

 

There are corps that do have big business making donations. Not fully funded, but significant amounts are donated. That may be the best a corps could expect.  A couple of large donors, a group of smaller donors, small individual donations, bingo, grants, additional fundraisers, paid events, tuitions, volunteers. ALL of that is needed and I believe there are a number of corps doing this   It takes a long time for all of this to come about.  A corps could/should expect at least 10 years of hard work to make it happen.  

Edited November 15, 2025 by LabMaster

[Fred Windish]

perc2100  makes some excellent points here about operational changes that COULD increase the chances of organizational survivability.  I was particularly intrigued by the question "who does DCI really serve."  Beyond the obvious answer (the marching young people) I would answer that would be the DCI uniform and equipment manufacturers.

The current DCI Sponsors List is heavy on this group.  It is this group who really wants to reach the thousands of non-drums corps groups throughout the nation and beyond.  It is the DCI Tour that provides valuable, high level exposure to the DCI Sponsors.  Continuing a DCI tour in some fashion is paramount.

I am reposting my thoughts expressed here back in December

_______________________

 

Hello, all!

I continue to be an avid daily reader of your posts here.  Good stuff! 

Like most, I fear what contemporary outside challenges might mean for DCI's longevity. To expand on the recent 'Cadets' topic, I offer one specific scenario that COULD come into any survival play for the organization. I fully understand it is somewhat 'G7- like' and will be repulsive to some. Cadets were involved back then, but maybe for all their management faults, perhaps they really were a little prescient for their time.

________

Eight (8-10) Elite Touring Groups. Each selected ‘State of the Art’ for what we do in any given year. Obviously, each organization will first be deemed financially capable of participation.

Ten (10) City Nationwide Tour. Each tour stop includes 3-4 full performances over a 2 or 3 day encampment within each city. Separate Matinee and Evening ticketed shows at the same venue. 

In effect, a ‘Broadway National Road Company’ for DCI.

 

Smaller, less established organizations will continue to exist. Every region, in any city of the nation can provide a less ambitious version of similar product as developed naturally within those areas. Such groups take part independently in whatever size and format they design.

A final DCI Championship Multi-Day Convention continues. A variety of other groups may apply to perform.

Drum Corps International, Inc. is independently operated by the 8-10 Elite Touring Groups. It remains available to all others for guidance and limited support, but NOT for actual management, rule making, nor obligation for direct funding of any other groups.

_________

Please slice, dice, call me names at will. I can take it!  More importantly, add your own thoughts. I'll appreciate them!

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all  ! 

 

😀

_______________________

 

(The replies to the above were mostly negative)

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by Fred Windish

 

Edited November 15, 2025 by Fred Windish

[KVG_DC]

6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

the problem with moving to a more popular based music scenario jacks up the costs due to licensing.

Also presents the question of "popular to whom?" us?  (most of us here aren't spring chickens anymore.) Our parents? (seems to be a go to for 'see people don't recognize tunes anymore' for more than a few of us. The marchers? (licensing big bucks for current things in shows, and a fair few of the 'big buyers' of tickets being "I don't recognize any of these songs? Who is this Roan Chappel?") 

[craiga]

For the sake of longevity, I would repeat what someone high up in BAC's management told me the first year out of covid.   "For drum corps to survive, we need to appeal to 20 year old college kids, not 70 year olds."

Sounds like tough love, but as a 65 year old myself, I have to agree. And in Boston's case, I think they have been threading that needle fairly well over the recent years. They have somehow been able to build a broad financial base while simultaneously creating shows with equally broad appeal as well as being obviously competitively successful.

[cixelsyd]

On 11/15/2025 at 2:13 PM, Fred Windish said:

I was particularly intrigued by the question "who does DCI really serve."  Beyond the obvious answer (the marching young people) I would answer that would be the DCI uniform and equipment manufacturers.

That explains a lot.

[Jeff Ream]

On 11/16/2025 at 7:46 AM, craiga said:

For the sake of longevity, I would repeat what someone high up in BAC's management told me the first year out of covid.   "For drum corps to survive, we need to appeal to 20 year old college kids, not 70 year olds."

Sounds like tough love, but as a 65 year old myself, I have to agree. And in Boston's case, I think they have been threading that needle fairly well over the recent years. They have somehow been able to build a broad financial base while simultaneously creating shows with equally broad appeal as well as being obviously competitively successful.

correct, and it's a model DCA learned the hard way to where it's now part of DCI. at 56 i am not the future of the activity. i haven't been. it's why i don't complain about design choices as much as i used to. my kid is 13, and about to be a freshman pitter in HS. I listen to her thoughts for what she likes.....thats the future.

 

Alumni come and go. Some may stay engaged long after their day. many do not. the key is keeping alumni as long as you can without sacrificing the future

[perc2100]

On 11/17/2025 at 1:59 PM, Jeff Ream said:

correct, and it's a model DCA learned the hard way to where it's now part of DCI. at 56 i am not the future of the activity. i haven't been. it's why i don't complain about design choices as much as i used to. my kid is 13, and about to be a freshman pitter in HS. I listen to her thoughts for what she likes.....thats the future.

 

Alumni come and go. Some may stay engaged long after their day. many do not. the key is keeping alumni as long as you can without sacrificing the future

I don't disagree with that concept, but right now it feels undeniable that DCI is catering to a niche of a niche of a niche audience.  Twenty year olds are not exactly known for being huge spenders, though what the BAC management was almost certainly implying was catering to the people paying hundreds of dollars in audition camp fees, buying souvenirs, etc.  Obviously between dinosaur alumni (me!) or modern marching-aged young adults, you go with said young adults 100% of the time.  However, if you're even remotely interested in trying to grow the activity beyond the niche of a niche of a niche current audience base, I don't think that's the viable solution for an activity with ever-growing MAMMOTH costs and minimal revenue streams.

I can't fathom why more DCI corps haven't set up WGI Wind groups to test those waters: given the WGI model, it seems perfect for longer-term financial stability (maybe less housing costs & travel costs given how many local WGI-affiliated circuits & WGI Regionals there are) that would also attract a mostly local-base of membership that could bode better for future fundraising and charity stuff.  If you have a local base & membership & local engagement, it's sure a lot easier getting donations than "yeah I live in Iowa but I'm marching a drum corps in Northern CA and need to ask for donations to help pay the thousands of dollars in tuition fees for a group that won't even be performing in this state this calendar year."  WGI groups aren't cheap to run of course, but a heckuva lot cheaper than a DCI drum and bugle corps

[perc2100]

On 11/15/2025 at 1:49 PM, KVG_DC said:

Also presents the question of "popular to whom?" us?  (most of us here aren't spring chickens anymore.) Our parents? (seems to be a go to for 'see people don't recognize tunes anymore' for more than a few of us. The marchers? (licensing big bucks for current things in shows, and a fair few of the 'big buyers' of tickets being "I don't recognize any of these songs? Who is this Roan Chappel?") 

IDK but as far as costs go I can't imagine there are too many more expensive options than an all-Beatles program and that has been done relatively recently (and very successfully!).

You're right of course, "popular to whom" is a fun debate, but I think one thing we can almost all certainly agree on is that zero consideration is had in design meetings about popular music or accessibility.  I know some competitively successful shows have been designed specifically to 'troll' audiences (hi Star of Indiana 1993!), and I'm pretty sure their designers got their results intended/expected.

That being said: stuff like Beatles is going to be more popular to the average, general, "music theater" ticket-buyer than, say, Steve Reich.  There's a reason why all of the symphonies now-a-days supplement their performances with stuff like "Star Wars w/Symphony playing the musical score live!" or "Cynthia Erivo sings with the symphony!"  I think _IF_ DCI corps are interested in bringing in more mainstream audiences/broadening their fan base it would be wise to perform programs that are more audience-accessible.  Of course, a great overall design can be done with totally unknown/original music that's wildly engaging from both a musical and visual point of view, but "all artistic/all the time" has literally been proven in more mainstream artforms to be not viable than "mix esoteric w/mainstream stuff" w/in a performance season.

And of course the flip of that coin is all of us almost certainly discovered some amazing music thanks to drum corps: some of it more accessible (Pat Metheny, 'Channel One Suite') to the masses than others ('Short Ride in a Fast machine') but all cool nonetheless.  Obviously the key is a really great, cohesive show design which every designer in DCI from the gold medal winner to the last-place Open Class corps strives to do.  And heck, there's no guarantee that changing things up radically to try to appeal to a broader audience would yield such success: and could hurt a corps competitively and/or cause other negative chain reactions.

I guess what I'm really saying is DCI has been an unviable activity for a long time now, and I'm not sure that anyone cares to try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.  Maybe this niche of a niche of a niche thing that started with vets kinda bored at home and wanting to bring back the military parade vibe to those kids today has run its course and is in its last stage before expiring for good or completely changing to something else.  Who knows: my corps folded long ago and I haven't been interested in attending DCI Championships since it permanently moved to Indy/I moved to SoCA (the last I went to was at the Rose Bowl) so I'm not some big money guy or even a die-hard fan or whatever.  Just a causal alum popping in and out occasionally, not too surprised to see "same as it ever was: another popular corps on the verge of going away."  It is amusing that the only thing that's changed is maybe designers going further all-in with their ways but that feels like the natural evolutionary movement of the activity since the 1970's.  Guess it's easier to either think "if it aint broke, no need to change" (which, I'm sure is the case with at least SOME corps in a financially viable situation), or to bury your head in the sand and hope the whole thing doesn't collapse around you.