It’s only fair I come out from under my rock for Mandarins

[Tim K]

10 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

Your post touches on some key issues that deserve discussion.  For instance:

I agree, in both cases.

Nothing controversial there.

This is where your remark about vision not being 20/20 resonates with me.  While they did try to create something of benefit to some number of corps, it is possible that they did not see how damaging the haves vs. have-nots nature of the system would be.

That is a popular misconception, but the timing does not quite line up.  I will return to this in more detail below.

Here are several popular misconceptions bundled together.  

There are plenty of youth activities that have maintained themselves through changing times and increasing options.  Take baseball as one example with comparable longevity... it remains strong because it has not raised its costs a hundredfold like drum corps has.

School music programs and drum corps have helped each other over time.

The only valid cause I see in your list is costs.  And you nailed it there.  The early years of DCI (and frankly, a few of the preceding years too) saw a three-pronged explosion of costs gladly (and naively) undertaken during decent economic times.  There was an absolute spree of equipment additions, not just the G-F bugle but also the armada of heavy percussion instruments that would prove burdensome in more ways than just cost.  At the same time, the idea of touring achieved previously by one corps (Troopers) was extended to a wider population of corps on a perennial basis.  On top of that, the prototypical corps grew substantially in size in all sections over the same period.  Unfortunately, DCI retained the primary flaw of their predecessors - that the model for making it all logical and practical was still only offered to the highest-placing corps.  Win or die trying.

And that is precisely what transpired.  DCI improved the situation for the top corps (i.e. top 12) so much and so fast that by 1975, corps at that level could not only adopt all that previously described growth and expansion, but also achieve a level of stable perennial operation never seen before.  Things were looking great for a few years, but then in 1978-1983, the attrition rate for the have-nots (and even the "associate members" placing 13-25 at DCI) jumped sharply upward.  Full 20/20 vision should have accounted for the down cycles of an economy, for one thing... and perhaps more importantly, how cannibalistic these changes were.  Top corps, having by then left the local circuits and their release rules behind, too often filled their growing ranks with experienced marchers from those local corps you speak of.  The local corps persisted, but it gets harder to swim upstream with fewer members.  So some chose the "win or die trying" route, where several did win but most died trying.

The reason I say the corps at the lower end were dying about the time DCI was founded probably has more to do with the local drum corps scene in my home state (Massachusetts). In the early 70's there were three thriving circuits in Massachusetts: CYO which featured bands, drum corps, and drill teams, Eastern Mass which featured drum corps, drill teams, and a handful of bands, and Mayflower which had drum corps and a handful of drill teams. In the early 70's CYO had a senior division of Senior A and B for bands and drum corps and one senior division for drill teams, two Prep (A and B) for bands and drum corps, one for drill teams, one division for bands, drum corps, and drill teams for juniors. Finals were a two day event. By the mid 70's nearly half were gone and finals was a full day event. By 1980 it was a mid afternoon and evening event. By 1985 the circuit was gone. I believe Mayflower was gone too. Eastern MA held on the longest but there were only a few competitors. Defenders and North Star were gone after 1982, 27th in 1986. It wasn't just Massachusetts and New England. By 1980 most of the New Jersey and Pennsylvania corps were gone. I'm not saying big, bad, DCI was to blame, and adding A and A/60, later Divisions II and III gave lower tier corps opportunities for serious competition, but it's too bad the situation was not realized sooner.

[cixelsyd]

11 hours ago, Tim K said:

The reason I say the corps at the lower end were dying about the time DCI was founded probably has more to do with the local drum corps scene in my home state (Massachusetts). In the early 70's there were three thriving circuits in Massachusetts: CYO which featured bands, drum corps, and drill teams, Eastern Mass which featured drum corps, drill teams, and a handful of bands, and Mayflower which had drum corps and a handful of drill teams. In the early 70's CYO had a senior division of Senior A and B for bands and drum corps and one senior division for drill teams, two Prep (A and B) for bands and drum corps, one for drill teams, one division for bands, drum corps, and drill teams for juniors. Finals were a two day event. By the mid 70's nearly half were gone and finals was a full day event. By 1980 it was a mid afternoon and evening event. By 1985 the circuit was gone. I believe Mayflower was gone too. Eastern MA held on the longest but there were only a few competitors. Defenders and North Star were gone after 1982, 27th in 1986. It wasn't just Massachusetts and New England. By 1980 most of the New Jersey and Pennsylvania corps were gone. I'm not saying big, bad, DCI was to blame, and adding A and A/60, later Divisions II and III gave lower tier corps opportunities for serious competition, but it's too bad the situation was not realized sooner.

There was also the Greater New England circuit, which sprang up in 1975 and operated through 1980.

Anyway, to be more precise... when I said "things were looking great for a few years", that was if you were looking at it from a DCI perspective.  Overall, number of corps was declining throughout the 1970s as one would expect after the baby boom peak.  But around 1978, not only did that trend accelerate sharply, it also started picking off a number of higher-profile corps.  The "associate membership" conferred to the 13-25 placing corps at DCI Championships did not spare those corps from such attrition.

[Jeff Ream]

14 hours ago, Slingerland said:

If the non WC corps told DCI's voting membership, point blank, "give us votes in the room, or we're bagging on Indy", it would carry some weight. Bluntly, DCI needs all of those Open Class butts in the seats on Saturday night.

no honestly it wouldn't. OC and all age needs WC more than WC needs them. they are not going to draw enough fans to pay the bills on their own to make up splitting from Indy. All Age already proved that, and OC is drawing small crowds Monday and Tuesday while WC corps are drawing big crowds in Ohio on their way to Indy

[Jeff Ream]

12 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

There was also the Greater New England circuit, which sprang up in 1975 and operated through 1980.

Anyway, to be more precise... when I said "things were looking great for a few years", that was if you were looking at it from a DCI perspective.  Overall, number of corps was declining throughout the 1970s as one would expect after the baby boom peak.  But around 1978, not only did that trend accelerate sharply, it also started picking off a number of higher-profile corps.  The "associate membership" conferred to the 13-25 placing corps at DCI Championships did not spare those corps from such attrition.

corps were starting to drop off before DCI too. DCI didn't help, but it's not the sole cause

[Jeff Ream]

people who have experience have been digging into the financial documents available to the public. things like grants received, loans from board members......and still a negative book value. bingo did ok for years and then at the end it dodn't....BD took over the operations, and of course BD being BD, they are making money. i have a hunch the events center is nowhere close to paying for itself.

[Sh0uldN0t]

As usual, some of the memories here aren't complete. It's not the national touring model that killed all those corps. What killed all those corps through the 70s, 80s and 90s was demographic, economic, social and other changes in the communities that previously populated and supported those corps. These were by and large community corps. And those communities underwent changes large and small through the first three decades of DCI. At the same time, changes in our communities allowed national touring corps to continue. Until some of them couldn't. You know the score.

But that's history. And the question today is: What will DCI be going forward? The only part of the answer that I know is DCI won't be the same because it never is. One reason why is the people who populate and support it never stay the same.

 

 

[Sh0uldN0t]

A few more thoughts.

Someone mentioned youth baseball as an example of an activity that has managed to maintain low costs. Okay. It's possible to have a youngster in a relatively low-cost baseball program IF your child only plays in the basic local league. If your child has talent, however, the cost of "travel" baseball is enormous. It's the same with nearly every youth activity. Drum corps isn't unique in this regard. Eight weeks of summer camp for a kid? Drum corps is a bargain by comparison. 

Boards of directors... What's the saying? Success has many fathers. Failure is a lonely orphan. Struggling boards know well the difference. Failure doesn't mean there wasn't diligence. Or good ideas. I know first-hand that some good ideas can't be implemented because the resources - financial, talent or even just volunteers - aren't there. I've been in the room. I've seen board work up close. Sometimes failure happens despite their best efforts.  

Now someone is going to say in both respects that corps should spend less. It's a reasonable impulse. It's just not so easy to pull off. Staff move to higher paying corps and take stronger talent with them. Transportation costs have risen many-fold over the past five years even as the tour shortened by two weeks. Competition rewards what is on the field, not the savings on spreadsheet.

Yes, drum corps should cost less. But what would that look like? A more local tour? There was one World Class show in New Jersey last year and perhaps three Open/All Age. Some states have zero. What would that local tour be? No mics? While high school bands continue to explore electronic possibilities? Drum corps is supposed to be the ultimate in the marching arts experience.   

[Boss Anova]

On 10/31/2025 at 9:11 AM, OldCorpsGuy said:

So I guess we just stand by while these guys destroy the activity for good? I’m not being snarky, I’m serious. What do we do? 

 

[Boss Anova]

4 minutes ago, Boss Anova said:

 

[cixelsyd]

13 hours ago, Sh0uldN0t said:

Someone mentioned youth baseball as an example of an activity that has managed to maintain low costs. Okay. It's possible to have a youngster in a relatively low-cost baseball program IF your child only plays in the basic local league. If your child has talent, however, the cost of "travel" baseball is enormous. 

Yet the local leagues are still there, because we did not materially change the game in a dozen expensive ways.

Quote

Now someone is going to say in both respects that corps should spend less. It's a reasonable impulse. It's just not so easy to pull off. Staff move to higher paying corps and take stronger talent with them. Transportation costs have risen many-fold over the past five years even as the tour shortened by two weeks. Competition rewards what is on the field, not the savings on spreadsheet.

Yes, drum corps should cost less. But what would that look like? 

As you have pointed out in this quote, the only effective way to stop costs from escalating would be for a central drum corps rulemaking entity like DCI to have responsible leadership evaluating proposed changes from the viewpoint of what is best for all, not just the few top corps, and therefore willing to say (like your screen name) "no, we should not".