DO the current mm's in DCI worry about it's possible demise as much as veterans do?

[Terri Schehr]

27 minutes ago, olddrummer34 said:

This is just not true. There are TONS of alumni at shows. Come on Terri, don't fall into the negativity. 

I went to Lisle, IL, Nashville, Mason, Centerville, Canton, Indy.  The only show that I saw a lot of millennials was Canton.  The Bloo alumni of that generation are very supportive.  I mostly see older people like me and lot of high school kids at the Ohio shows. Tons of high school kids at Mason and Centerville especially.

I don’t think I’m being negative.  I spend  thousands of dollars supporting the activity that I’ve been in or as a spectator or in many other capacities.  The time will come though,  probably in about ten years if I’m still on this mortal coil, that we won’t be able to go to shows. I would like for someone to be there to take my place. 
 

[Jeff Ream]

22 minutes ago, olddrummer34 said:

This forum could be handed the strongest competitive season in decades and half the posters would still trip over themselves trying to write the activity’s obituary.

There is a reflex here; see a challenge, inflate it into a collapse narrative, repeat until it sounds profound. It’s not analysis anymore; it’s a hobby. And it’s exactly why the people actually teaching, designing, and marching couldn’t care less about what gets said here. This place has zero credibility with the people doing the actual work.

If the goal were really “saving the activity,” this space would look very different. What it actually does is perform outrage and pessimism for an audience that already agrees.

At some point the doom-posting says more about the posters than it does about drum corps.

competition results means ZERO when it comres to the sustainability of the activity. we are losing corps. corps are having to take a season off. alumni aren't staying engaged, and in some cases as we've seen play out on here, they're at war with each other and the corps itself. There's fewer shows, which means there's fewer chances to hook fans in.

I'm in an area with a ton of competitive bands, and alumni from several corps. we used to have a show, be it DCI or DCA within a 2 hour drive EVERY week, sometimes more than one. Now we have 2 all age shows, Allentown, depending on your zip code Delaware or Annapolis and maybe the central jersey show. oh and an Open Class shows now dumped on tuesday with 3 corps signed up. guess what night many bands rehearse in the summer? Tuesday.

and with just an all age corps within that footprint, and they go more East than West, how is this market going to get hooked again? the alumni base is aging.....the alumni of an all age corps that used to be here are all 50's and 60's now, and the corps ceased competing in 2001.

 

while DCi is smart to target the BOA stongholds and Cali, other markets are being left behind. 

 

 

[olddrummer34]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

competition results means ZERO when it comres to the sustainability of the activity. we are losing corps. corps are having to take a season off. alumni aren't staying engaged, and in some cases as we've seen play out on here, they're at war with each other and the corps itself. There's fewer shows, which means there's fewer chances to hook fans in.

I'm in an area with a ton of competitive bands, and alumni from several corps. we used to have a show, be it DCI or DCA within a 2 hour drive EVERY week, sometimes more than one. Now we have 2 all age shows, Allentown, depending on your zip code Delaware or Annapolis and maybe the central jersey show. oh and an Open Class shows now dumped on tuesday with 3 corps signed up. guess what night many bands rehearse in the summer? Tuesday.

and with just an all age corps within that footprint, and they go more East than West, how is this market going to get hooked again? the alumni base is aging.....the alumni of an all age corps that used to be here are all 50's and 60's now, and the corps ceased competing in 2001.

 

while DCi is smart to target the BOA stongholds and Cali, other markets are being left behind. 

 

 

This post is a perfect example of speaking about the inner workings of DCI with total confidence while clearly having no access to them.

You’re presenting anecdotal regional frustration as if it’s a comprehensive business analysis of a national organization. It’s not. It’s a snapshot of your zip code, filtered through nostalgia and inconvenience, then inflated into a verdict on the entire activity.

“Competition results mean ZERO” is the kind of absolute statement people make when they want to sound structural without actually understanding structure. Results don’t guarantee sustainability, but they absolutely drive brand value, media visibility, sponsorship interest, recruiting momentum, and donor confidence. To pretend competitive relevance is irrelevant to sustainability is fantasy economics.

Yes, some corps have folded. Others have taken seasons off. That’s been happening for 60+ years. What’s different now is why: legal compliance, health standards, insurance, staffing, transportation, and duty-of-care costs that simply didn’t exist at modern levels 20–30 years ago. That’s not decay, that’s professionalization. You may not like the consequences, but don’t confuse them with neglect.

Your alumni argument is also built on a romanticized model that no longer exists. Alumni engagement today is digital, episodic, and national, not dependent on whether there’s a show within 90 minutes of your house every Tuesday night. The idea that fans can only be created by weekly in-person exposure from a VFW parking lot tour model is outdated by about two decades.

And the Tuesday Open Class show complaint? That’s not a strategic indictment, that’s a scheduling conflict. Bands rehearse every night in the summer. There is no night that doesn’t inconvenience someone.

As for “markets being left behind”: DCI is following participation density, financial infrastructure, educational pipelines, and ticket demand. That’s not favoritism, it’s basic survival strategy. You don’t plant growth where the soil is exhausted and then act shocked when nothing grows.

You’re frustrated with change. That’s fair. But frustration is not the same thing as insight, and right now this reads far more like loss of personal proximity to the activity than any real understanding of how it’s being operated.

[Jeff Ream]

21 minutes ago, olddrummer34 said:

You don’t magically “run out” of alumni because the total number of corps dips. You generate new alumni based on participation volume and visibility, not nostalgia math from 40 years ago. World and Open Class still produce thousands of alumni every single season. All-Age is expanding. 

Also, alumni disengaging over time isn’t new, and it isn’t fatal. That’s been happening since the 1960s. The difference now is that younger alumni engage differently, digitally, socially, financially, and episodically instead of showing up to VFW halls every Friday for 50 years.

Fewer shows doesn’t equal fewer future alumni. And fewer legacy pipelines doesn’t equal collapse. It just means the engagement model is changing, whether people here like it or not.

The real danger isn’t a shrinking alumni pool. It’s pretending the only valid supporters are the ones who came up in 1985.

do you get math? fewer corps means fewer alumni. 100 corps say 35 years ago with 100 member is 10,000 alumni. What now there's......45? with say 120 members is 5,400 alumni. and alumni disenagement is more obvious now because there's fewer corps to be an alumnus of. fewer shows means fewer opportunities to get people sucked in. seeing it live pales in comparison to watching on Flo or Youtube.

[olddrummer34]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

do you get math? fewer corps means fewer alumni. 100 corps say 35 years ago with 100 member is 10,000 alumni. What now there's......45? with say 120 members is 5,400 alumni. and alumni disenagement is more obvious now because there's fewer corps to be an alumnus of. fewer shows means fewer opportunities to get people sucked in. seeing it live pales in comparison to watching on Flo or Youtube.

Yes, the math is simple. The conclusion you’re drawing from it is not.

You’re interpreting everything through a boomer-era pipeline: live show → local exposure → lifelong alum → permanent donor. That model made sense in 1988. It is not how Gen Z discovers, consumes, or commits to anything in 2025.

The actual customer base of this activity right now does not get “hooked” primarily by stumbling into a local show. They get hooked on YouTube, FloMarching, TikTok clips, Instagram reels, and algorithm-driven exposure. That’s not a theory, that’s literally how most current members found drum corps. Many of them had never seen a live show before auditioning. Some had never even heard a live brass line in person.

So no, fewer local shows does not automatically mean fewer future fans. It means the conversion funnel has moved online, where the reach is exponentially larger than any parking-lot tour model ever was.

Your alumni math also assumes that alumni are only created by the quantity of corps, not the scale, visibility, and media footprint of the ones that exist. That’s outdated. A single World Class corps today has more digital reach in one season than ten mid-sized corps had combined in the 90s. Alumni engagement is now national, digital, episodic, and brand-driven, not tied to who lives within 90 minutes of a gym.

And saying “seeing it live pales in comparison to Flo or YouTube” is exactly backwards for Gen Z. For them, Flo createsthe desire to see it live. That’s the order now. Digital first. Live later.

What you’re really lamenting isn’t alumni math. It’s the loss of a world where the activity was geographically dense and culturally local. That world is gone, not because DCI failed, but because media, youth culture, and entertainment discovery have fundamentally changed.

This isn’t an extinction problem.
It’s a you’re still using a 1985 engagement model to judge a 2025 audience problem.

[Jeff Ream]

3 minutes ago, olddrummer34 said:

 

This post is a perfect example of speaking about the inner workings of DCI with total confidence while clearly having no access to them.

You’re presenting anecdotal regional frustration as if it’s a comprehensive business analysis of a national organization. It’s not. It’s a snapshot of your zip code, filtered through nostalgia and inconvenience, then inflated into a verdict on the entire activity.

“Competition results mean ZERO” is the kind of absolute statement people make when they want to sound structural without actually understanding structure. Results don’t guarantee sustainability, but they absolutely drive brand value, media visibility, sponsorship interest, recruiting momentum, and donor confidence. To pretend competitive relevance is irrelevant to sustainability is fantasy economics.

Yes, some corps have folded. Others have taken seasons off. That’s been happening for 60+ years. What’s different now is why: legal compliance, health standards, insurance, staffing, transportation, and duty-of-care costs that simply didn’t exist at modern levels 20–30 years ago. That’s not decay, that’s professionalization. You may not like the consequences, but don’t confuse them with neglect.

Your alumni argument is also built on a romanticized model that no longer exists. Alumni engagement today is digital, episodic, and national, not dependent on whether there’s a show within 90 minutes of your house every Tuesday night. The idea that fans can only be created by weekly in-person exposure from a VFW parking lot tour model is outdated by about two decades.

And the Tuesday Open Class show complaint? That’s not a strategic indictment, that’s a scheduling conflict. Bands rehearse every night in the summer. There is no night that doesn’t inconvenience someone.

As for “markets being left behind”: DCI is following participation density, financial infrastructure, educational pipelines, and ticket demand. That’s not favoritism, it’s basic survival strategy. You don’t plant growth where the soil is exhausted and then act shocked when nothing grows.

You’re frustrated with change. That’s fair. But frustration is not the same thing as insight, and right now this reads far more like loss of personal proximity to the activity than any real understanding of how it’s being operated.

you actually have no idea what i know internally and don't. 

 

and it's not this region alone. the northeast in general, not just central PA has lost a ton of shows over the last decade, and corps also. looking at the tour model, when they head towards allentown, which then you turn left and head to Indy to wrap up, several corps end up having to head 7 hours further north to get a show in for Boston. trust me, internally, it's not popular, but they don't want to hang boston out to dry either. DCI has had several great competitive seasons recently. yet corps aren't full, corps have dropped by the wayside. Indy is going to sell tickets for finals night. semis and prelims maybe. Allentown will usually be a better crowd Saturday because it's easier to get into town than Friday. Atlanta isn't drawing what it did at the old dome, especially with a smaller line up.

 

if alumni engagement digitally was that great, then corps wouldn't be begging for alumni to get involved...and they are. a few corps have some good things going, but not all. especially the corps viewed as a stepping stone to the bigger corps.

 

and the tuesday open class show...it could have still been on friday looking at the schedule. DCi chose to not do it. the host wasn't in favor of the move. But hey looking how they handled that Ohio show, is one surprised?

 

and the soil WAS planted. it WAS growing flowers. DCI chose to dig it out.

 

again...you think i don't know things. you'd be very surprised.

[olddrummer34]

“Corps aren’t full”? Seriously? Which ones? Last I checked, there’s zero public data to back that up. In reality, corps are fuller than ever, Open Class is expanding, and new corps keep getting added. Sounds more like wishful thinking than facts.

[Boss Anova]

 Enjoyed reading the comments.

 My take.. a few bullets points:

..... No, I don't think today's audition participants think beyond the next few months, nor should they be required to, imo

..... there is evidence to support that current alums dont support their former corps financially, as previous generation's marchers once did. That could be problematic long term, imo. 

.....A larger percentage of today's marchers are choosing a career path in education that is not generally known to be a lucrative career path, despite being a noble one. That likewise can be problematic long term as marchers pay off college loans and enter non business careers for a larger percentage than earlier generations that marched and have both loyalty and the finances to give back....but that can also be potentially problematic as these alums pass on.

..... On a more optimistic note. DCI Corps still with us survived an unprecedented shut down as a result of world wide pandemic.  The resiliency  is really quite remarkable, imo. If anything could have killed off DCI, the recent pandemic should have done it. But it didn't. The numbers of Corps is pretty close in numbers today as they were pre pandemic. Maybe a little down in numbers, but not what many expected  in loss numbers when the deadly virus first hit our shores and ran amok.

..... DCI has responded to the post covid years with shortened seasons, less shows, and other cost cutting. Likely more has to be done, imo

..... Cost to march is of course a challenge. College athletes are now being paid ikn the NIL era. Don't see DCI doing anything along these lines. But I do think corporate sponsors of DCI Corps that profit from the sale of items to the Corps could sponsor individual marchers whe might be strapped for cash, but have perhaps marched a year already. I think Corps need to find more ways to lower costs. DCI Corps need to find better financial resources than the dying bingo operations. I dont see future generations lining up to play bingo like today or in the past, but that assessment is from a guy like me  that doesn't play bingo, and doesn't buy lottery tickets, so who knows.

[cixelsyd]

31 minutes ago, olddrummer34 said:

As for the historical data: yes, tuition has lagged behind total operating costs. That does not mean the market has rejected the value of the experience. It means the activity deliberately chose an access ceiling to avoid collapsing its participant base. There’s a difference between “what something costs to produce” and “what the consumer market can sustain.” Every nonprofit arts organization in the country lives in that tension.

Your conclusion assumes that if families truly valued the modern experience, they would simply pay whatever is required. That’s not economics, that’s a thought experiment with no income brackets attached. Price sensitivity isn’t philosophical. It’s measurable. And drum corps is already operating very close to the upper limit of what its demographic can bear.

So no, that’s not my “final answer.” The real answer is that drum corps is expensive and still price-capped by basic demand elasticity. You can acknowledge that reality and discuss diversified revenue like an adult nonprofit, or you can keep chasing a tuition-only solution that the last 20 years have already disproven.

If you could read and recall my past posts, you would know that I am not "chasing a tuition-only solution".  Frankly, I am more concerned about where the show revenue went.  And I still think both revenue and costs need to be looked at... but that is for another time.

So you say the price sensitivity is measurable.  Okay, then - how much headroom is there?

[Jeff Ream]

22 minutes ago, olddrummer34 said:

 

Yes, the math is simple. The conclusion you’re drawing from it is not.

You’re interpreting everything through a boomer-era pipeline: live show → local exposure → lifelong alum → permanent donor. That model made sense in 1988. It is not how Gen Z discovers, consumes, or commits to anything in 2025.

The actual customer base of this activity right now does not get “hooked” primarily by stumbling into a local show. They get hooked on YouTube, FloMarching, TikTok clips, Instagram reels, and algorithm-driven exposure. That’s not a theory, that’s literally how most current members found drum corps. Many of them had never seen a live show before auditioning. Some had never even heard a live brass line in person.

So no, fewer local shows does not automatically mean fewer future fans. It means the conversion funnel has moved online, where the reach is exponentially larger than any parking-lot tour model ever was.

Your alumni math also assumes that alumni are only created by the quantity of corps, not the scale, visibility, and media footprint of the ones that exist. That’s outdated. A single World Class corps today has more digital reach in one season than ten mid-sized corps had combined in the 90s. Alumni engagement is now national, digital, episodic, and brand-driven, not tied to who lives within 90 minutes of a gym.

And saying “seeing it live pales in comparison to Flo or YouTube” is exactly backwards for Gen Z. For them, Flo createsthe desire to see it live. That’s the order now. Digital first. Live later.

What you’re really lamenting isn’t alumni math. It’s the loss of a world where the activity was geographically dense and culturally local. That world is gone, not because DCI failed, but because media, youth culture, and entertainment discovery have fundamentally changed.

This isn’t an extinction problem.
It’s a you’re still using a 1985 engagement model to judge a 2025 audience problem.

if that model made sense, and was stopped, and we see things where they are....was the change from that model really wise?

and not everyone knows about Flo. i don't see marketing for it. i don't see marketing. and Flo creates the demand to see it live....if there's places you can actually see it live. i'm glad you think whats happening is working. the reality is drum corps isn't growing.