Seedings, "Slottings", and order of appearance.......a perspective.

[BG984]

Personally, I have never liked any kind of "seedings" determining order of appearance at any show. Seedings, IMO, should be completely eliminated.   I liked 1988, when nobody knew prelim scores, or prelim placements....just who made finals, and the corps that were in the top 6 in prelims and the corps that were 7-12.  That was all.  IMO, this added to the excitement.  Judge can tweak scores and their placements now throughout the show, and can refine before turning in their final numbers, so that eliminates all numbers management problems.  So, what am I suggesting?

1.  There should be a "drawing session" before the start of the season.  After determining who is appearing in each show,  order of appearance should be drawn for.  This also creates a fairer schedule for all.  If a particular corps is always one of the last 3 corps on, and someone else is always one of the first 3 on....in a 5 show period that equates to 15 additional hours for the group always on late.  This will disappear.  The corps can also fine-tune their schedule before even the first show, as all will know what time they are going on for every single show, and can plan accordingly.

2.  At Championships.,  All prelim scores are withheld.  The only thing announced at the end of quarterfinals is who has advanced to semifinals...no scores.  At the end of semifinals, all that is announced is who has advanced to finals.  The scores from 23rd to 13th will be read in order, before announcing the names of the finalists.   The directors will draw for positions for the order of appearance at finals.

I do feel (and I am coming from some experience here) that these changes will encourage more "free thinking" in the judging community (especially in the highly subjective GE caption)....last night, last week, last month, and the last 20 years, should all be irrelevant......"that night, that show" should always be the priority.  Some will complain that you could possibly have the top ranked corps going on early or first, and the 24th ranked corps could go on right after them.  So be it.  

I had a seminar with a "judging guru" who started one day with how bad he hated 1988.  When I asked why, he said, "because you didn't get to see the top 2 corps back to back to make a call.  I raised my hand... "what if the 4th place prelim corps does the job of the night"?  I basically was stating that in some years, you might have more than two corps with a very real chance at winning.  Indeed, there have been years where there wasn't a clear cut favorite, and perhaps 3-5 corps could possibly step up and take it all. (2008 comes to mind, with Phantom seeded only 4th going into championships)  However, I could tell that the "guru" didn't like that.  There was silence, and then he completely changed the subject.  He put his foot in his mouth more than once that day.  He justified giving "perfect 10's" in a caption, during the days when all scores were turned in after each performance.  However, he did stress numbers management and "leaving room".  So, utilizing his procedure, the only corps that could be given a 10 would be the last corps on.  Real fair, right??  So, he was constantly contradicting himself.  I once gave a 7th place prelim corps (so 6 corps on after them) a first place finish in my caption at finals.  I did "follow guidelines", and there were indeed 6 numbers left that were available to score higher....but nobody did....and reality is I wanted to give them a higher number.  They did win the caption (two judges), and the corps went from 7th to 4th.  I also had a year where I had a class A corps (on the same sheets) in 6th place overall (ie including the open corps) in the caption.  To this day, my question to myself is if they should have been maybe 5th or 4th.  Still, they beat the 3rd place overall open corps in the caption, and I am sure there was some cursing with my name in the sentence over that......and I'm fine with that...lol.

I highly doubt that there will ever be any significant changes involving seedings/order of appearance.....and IMO, that's a shame.

[Jeff Ream]

seeding makes no sense in todays world because of technology.

 

judges can hold numbers in competition suite and/or adjust as they go. rank then rate right? there ya go. an old school TOC show, where its the top guns performing in whatever order means with Comp Suite, if you need to make adjustments you can. it's possible Jeff didn't throw down the 10's for Boston til after Bloo performed and he adjusted it. ( not saying he did, saying it's possible.) 

 

now for huge shows...like SA the only remaining all day regional, prelims or semis, i get that holding it all can be a tabulators and contest administrators worst nightmare. but it's possible. i judged band championships the last few years with 20 bands in a class.....we held numbers til they were done. i admit i made adjustments as the day went. but then i got it where i felt it needed to be. mine were mostly minor adjustments to avoid ties, and Comp Suite alerts you to ties. using pencil on your tote is also strongly recommended.

[dcifanforlife]

This is a perfect example of what is wrong with DCP.  You have a poster who makes reference to an event that took place 38 years ago and has no idea  what the current order of appearance/seeding is.  What he is proposing is  currently happening.  The current order of appearance is based on  corps  placement at Semi;s for shows before San Antonio.   Many Executive Directors use order of appearance to determine what shows to attend early in the season.    How many times do you want to go head to head with your closest rivals. Order of appearance is reset  twice again before prelims.   Do well and you are hopefully rewarded with a favorable prelim spot.  When you are running a multi million dollars organization  working every angle is important.

[greg_orangecounty]

It's fine as is. 

[IllianaLancerContra]

2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

seeding makes no sense in todays world because of technology.

 

judges can hold numbers in competition suite and/or adjust as they go. rank then rate right? there ya go. an old school TOC show, where its the top guns performing in whatever order means with Comp Suite, if you need to make adjustments you can. it's possible Jeff didn't throw down the 10's for Boston til after Bloo performed and he adjusted it. ( not saying he did, saying it's possible.) 

 

now for huge shows...like SA the only remaining all day regional, prelims or semis, i get that holding it all can be a tabulators and contest administrators worst nightmare. but it's possible. i judged band championships the last few years with 20 bands in a class.....we held numbers til they were done. i admit i made adjustments as the day went. but then i got it where i felt it needed to be. mine were mostly minor adjustments to avoid ties, and Comp Suite alerts you to ties. using pencil on your tote is also strongly recommended.

Devil’s advocate - If the judges are so experienced and knowledgeable as DCI states before they are introduced at every show, then why would they need to go back in Competition Suite and adjust numbers?  If they are experts, shouldn’t they know a 7.7 vs a 7.6 when they see it?  

Edited January 31 by IllianaLancerContra

[BG984]

6 hours ago, dcifanforlife said:

This is a perfect example of what is wrong with DCP.  You have a poster who makes reference to an event that took place 38 years ago and has no idea  what the current order of appearance/seeding is.  What he is proposing is  currently happening.  The current order of appearance is based on  corps  placement at Semi;s for shows before San Antonio.   Many Executive Directors use order of appearance to determine what shows to attend early in the season.    How many times do you want to go head to head with your closest rivals. Order of appearance is reset  twice again before prelims.   Do well and you are hopefully rewarded with a favorable prelim spot.  When you are running a multi million dollars organization  working every angle is important.

You need to re-read......I don't think that you understood at all.  38 years ago, for just the 1988 season,  no prelim scores at nationals were released...just who advanced.....and no order of finish released....for finals, they did do top 6/bottom 6...but you had no idea if you were 6th or 1st, or 7th or 12th.  So it was entirely possible that the 12th place prelim finisher could have gone on back to back with the winner of prelims.  What I am proposing is currently happening???  What show did I miss!   I propose NO SEEDINGS AT ALL......Order by random draw.  At ALL SHOWS.  This has never been done before.  This also has nothing to do with who is in the show....Even in a 5 corps show, the procedure would be the same....draw for order, plain and simple.  It will never happen.  Those who always go on late want to keep it that way, and that is the way it will be.  "What is wrong with DCP"??   I am simply proposing going to a random order of appearance.  That is all.  If you hate the idea, no problem.

[BG984]

3 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Devil’s advocate - If the judges are so experienced and knowledgeable as DCI states before they are introduced at every show, then why would they need to go back in Competition Suite and adjust numbers?  If they are experts, shouldn’t they know a 7.7 vs a 7.6 when they see it?  

Not all that long ago, all scores for each group had to be turned in immediately after a corps' performance.  Ties of any numbers is frowned upon.  Let's say you give one group a 7.6 as you say.  Another group comes on and they are ever so slightly better, so you give them a 7.7.    The show is long.  Five corps later, a corps comes on.  They are ever so slightly better than the first group, but still not as good as the 7.7 group in your opinion.    You now have an issue, because maybe at that time you could not go to the hundreths.  You are "boxed in".  Today, however,  you have an easy tweak.....you bump the best of the 3 to a 7.8, and you have a 7.6 and a 7.7.  In fact, today, a judge can use hundreths if they truly feel that 2 or more corps are very, very close.  With the current method, the judge can reflect throughout the show and tweak the numbers, so that at the end of the day, they are confident that the rating is accurate, with appropriate spreads, and the ranking is accurate as well.  Also, in the old days, this problem could occur.....let's say a group comes in and they are phenomenal in the caption that day, and you give a 9.7 out of 10 in the caption, but there are 7 groups remaining.  Those 7 groups are going to gripe, because your number says that all 7 groups have zero chance at beating the group...only 3 do.  So, the procedure was you "leave room", and give a lower number.  Not really fair to the group that just turned out a job.  Now, you can give the number that you feel for a group, and can tweak later if need be.  In regards to your 7.7 vs 7.6.....no.  This is a subjective "sport".  Now, if I don't know the difference between a 9.4/10 and a 7.2/10, I shouldn't be out there.  The numbers are in boxes....1-5, and even there, you have low box, middle box, and high box.  First importance is you should easily be able to determine the right box, and there are descriptions.  It is definitely important to have people in the right box/range in evaluating their performance.  Then you have the tougher job of determining where in the box, and their ranking compared to other performances.

[BG984]

6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

seeding makes no sense in todays world because of technology.

 

judges can hold numbers in competition suite and/or adjust as they go. rank then rate right? there ya go. an old school TOC show, where its the top guns performing in whatever order means with Comp Suite, if you need to make adjustments you can. it's possible Jeff didn't throw down the 10's for Boston til after Bloo performed and he adjusted it. ( not saying he did, saying it's possible.) 

 

now for huge shows...like SA the only remaining all day regional, prelims or semis, i get that holding it all can be a tabulators and contest administrators worst nightmare. but it's possible. i judged band championships the last few years with 20 bands in a class.....we held numbers til they were done. i admit i made adjustments as the day went. but then i got it where i felt it needed to be. mine were mostly minor adjustments to avoid ties, and Comp Suite alerts you to ties. using pencil on your tote is also strongly recommended.

I have always disliked seedings, and I would love to see them try random order/draw for appearance....even if just for a season, and see how it goes.  It will never happen though, as people are hell-bent on the seedings, and unfortunately the slotting that sometimes comes with that.........they also like their additional 3 hours on every show day, which IMO is blatantly unfair.....competition suite can easily handle the holding of all numbers until the end.  It is important that everything get "proofed", especially at championship shows, but easily done if everybody follows set procedures.  Band/guard/indoor shows with 35 or more groups can be a bit slow....but certainly no slower than when everything was sheets and pencils.....you are also right that Technology can (and sometimes will) fail, and I agree that it is a good idea for every judge to have a manual tote, just in case of disaster.  

[IllianaLancerContra]

1 hour ago, BG984 said:

Not all that long ago, all scores for each group had to be turned in immediately after a corps' performance.  Ties of any numbers is frowned upon.  Let's say you give one group a 7.6 as you say.  Another group comes on and they are ever so slightly better, so you give them a 7.7.    The show is long.  Five corps later, a corps comes on.  They are ever so slightly better than the first group, but still not as good as the 7.7 group in your opinion.    You now have an issue, because maybe at that time you could not go to the hundreths.  You are "boxed in".  Today, however,  you have an easy tweak.....you bump the best of the 3 to a 7.8, and you have a 7.6 and a 7.7.  In fact, today, a judge can use hundreths if they truly feel that 2 or more corps are very, very close.  With the current method, the judge can reflect throughout the show and tweak the numbers, so that at the end of the day, they are confident that the rating is accurate, with appropriate spreads, and the ranking is accurate as well.  Also, in the old days, this problem could occur.....let's say a group comes in and they are phenomenal in the caption that day, and you give a 9.7 out of 10 in the caption, but there are 7 groups remaining.  Those 7 groups are going to gripe, because your number says that all 7 groups have zero chance at beating the group...only 3 do.  So, the procedure was you "leave room", and give a lower number.  Not really fair to the group that just turned out a job.  Now, you can give the number that you feel for a group, and can tweak later if need be.  In regards to your 7.7 vs 7.6.....no.  This is a subjective "sport".  Now, if I don't know the difference between a 9.4/10 and a 7.2/10, I shouldn't be out there.  The numbers are in boxes....1-5, and even there, you have low box, middle box, and high box.  First importance is you should easily be able to determine the right box, and there are descriptions.  It is definitely important to have people in the right box/range in evaluating their performance.  Then you have the tougher job of determining where in the box, and their ranking compared to other performances.

Part of the problem is that scores are greatly inflated across the board.   But that is a separate issue. 

[Quad Aces]

This is exactly what BOA does for Grand Nationals.  They don’t release Prelims, Semis, or Finals scores until the very end.  And from looking at the Prelims and Semis scores after Finals each year, Grand Nationals seems to have more flip flops in placements then DCI has.

Having gone to DCI Championships and BOA Grand Nationals both for many, many years, I really like the way BOA does it much more than DCI, where you pretty much know Finals placements once you see the scores from Prelims.  WAY more exciting in BOA.  For that matter, some years in DCI you know some of the Finals placements after each corps’ first performance of the season.

Edited February 1 by Quad Aces