Orlando Show

[drums4u]

Blue Devils took the number one spot tonight. Congratulations. They have a fun show that the audience (and judges) seems to enjoy. It's your standard Blue crew show: jazzy, lots of incredible brass, and attitude.

But in my humble opinion, I have three words to say about tonights show to explain how I feel: Santa Clara Vanguard.

SCV...yes sir. This is the type of show that brought me to drum corps over 10 years ago. Music in motion. Santa Clara tells a story, and a beautiful one at that. Amazing design, beautiful melodies, and the best drumline in DCI, hands down. Blue Devils just did not do it for me. Too much screaming high brass for my tastes, and not a show I could really get into emotionally.

SCV personified class tonight, and I was totally blown away by what I saw on that football field. As far as percussion, I could not understand the tie between BD and SCV. SCV's percussion (both drumline AND Pit) was on fire. Their drum book is incredibly intiricate and musical. Tenor line...WOW!!! I'm not a judge or an expert by any means, so hopefully someone else with more knowledge of these things can shed some light on the scores, and why BD placed so much higher tonight overall. Yes, BD has "attitude" and lots of jazzy, screaming high brass moments. But SCV seemed so much more musical overall, and their visual program seemed to flow so much better tonight. SCV was intense, musical, emotional, and simply breathtaking.

In any case, thank you Santa Clara for reminding me what drum corps is all about: passion, emotion, intensity, musicianship, tradition, innovation, and excellence. Great music, great story, great show. I wish you the best in Denver!!!

[Navy Crusader]

Any input on how Boston's show was tonight?

Ben

BAC99-00

USS ABE LINCOLN

[jwillis35]

I wasn't at the show, and I certainly appreciate your review of these two fine corps, but all those comments you make about the Vanguard are also accurate for the Blue Devils. It's a shame that many have stereotyped the BD as being one of these corps that just blows your face off with high screaming brass and jazzy sounds. In fact, BD is incredibly musical, they play some of the hardest music year in and out, and their drums are also excellent. Even with the tie in percussion I suspect the big difference between BD and SCV at this point is cleaning. The Blue Devils have been masters at executing their shows at an amazing level even in June. Let's face it, most corps play catch up to BD. That's ok. Let the cards fall as they may. SCV ended up closing the gap in 1999 and tied BD for the title. Could happen again. I have seen the Cadets though and when that show cleans I really think you can hand them the trophy. But I have also seen the Cavaliers and they are AWESOME.

[victrussell]

I'm not a judge or an expert by any means, so hopefully someone else with more knowledge of these things can shed some light on the scores, and why BD placed so much higher tonight overall. 

I think you will be waiting the rest of your life for a reasonable explanation from DCI on how its judges apply (unpublished) criteria to evaluate and score specific drum corps' performances. I think that DCI judging practices are mostly kept secret because DCI knows its practices (such as how it applies judging criteria to a particular performance) will not stand up under scrutiny.

Vic Russell

[TomMoore]

The criteria is published and is readily available from DCI. 1-800-495-7469. You pay for the copies and the shipping.

I got it two years ago because I was curious about the judging criteria (and I got it by doing the very complicated act of picking up the phone), and would very gladly send it to you!

That said, I frequently scratch my head trying to figure out how and why the judges arrive at some of the conclusions they reach. But I don't believe in the backroom intrigue stuff. In fact, at the Huntington, WV show I was in the room when all of the judges arrived to pick up their materials for the night. The arrived separately, though I suspect they could have deliberately done that to throw me off the scent! They sat around for a bit in the air conditioning, gulped a few soft drinks and chatted about their families and their careers. Not a word about the night's compeition. I suppose they could have met in a secret location across the street from the stadium to plot out the night's results, but I doubt it! :)

Edited July 17, 2004 by TomMoore

[denverjohn]

Boston played! They did not talk! Thank you!

[sblez]

I think the previous two points were both aptly made. Couple of things need to be kept in perspective however. One, judging any type of contest of this nature, while certain criteria apply is subjective and still to a certain degree, the judge's opinion. Second, to assume that the judges, at some point do not discuss individual corps performances (perhaps not in a conspiratorial manner) is naive. Third, and finally, regardless of the organization, politics does come into play in some shape, form or fashion and DCI will be no exception. Given the dollars involved from various sources we can assume this brings to bear some fairly substantial poiltial pressure. This is not a "conspiracy theorY" type of assessment only statment of how the world works. It simply comes down to one point and this applies to DCI, Little League Baseball, Girls HS Soccer, etc., etc. If we could keep a young people's event a young people's event things would be great. But then the adults get involved and. . . . .

Just my very subjective opinion

Oh, by the way, my son's corps will be marching in Orlando tonight and from my side of the table I'm sure they will be judged less than fairly as well!

Have a great weekend!

[pags]

Oh, by the way, my son's corps will be marching in Orlando tonight and from my side of the table I'm sure they will be judged less than fairly as well!

Have a great weekend!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nevermind...I was going to say something, but it's pointless.

Edited July 17, 2004 by pags

[Lieut. General Effect]

Sblez :

You have it just about right. Judging Drum Corps competitions has to be one of the the most subjective enterprises, if not THE most subjective enterprises, around. The judges are all great people, and I've known some of them for years. But to be honest....their's is an impossible task. They do it admirably. But some of us will always feel somewhat confused in some of the scoring, because the judges are being asked to compare and evaluate completely disimilar shows. No can do. Sorry, that's just my opinion. ( and the judges scoring is their opinion, because none of this is measureable, nor quantifiable in any way ). We rely on the considerable experience, knowledge, training, exposure of these judges to judge these dissimilar shows. But at the end of the day, their decision is based upon a subjective preference. Most sports have a verifiable comparison. There is even replay so the " judges " get it right. Heck, even figure skating ( gawd, I'm not a fan here, just for illustration purposes ) has a " Compulsory " component where each figure skater has to perform the similar figure 8ths, and so forth, to give at least some meaure of competitive comparison. Drum Corps have no such similar components. Right now, Drum Corps show designers put together shows based upon what they think the preferences of the judges are taste and preference wise. That means there is no pop music, no country, no rap, no march, no Far Eastern, no Rock, no Alternative and so forth type music played. That's because ( smartly ) corps designers have concluded that the judges have a predisposition to prefer Jazz, Blues, 60's Folk, and Classical, Orginal " out there " Compositions and certain other genres over others. Likewise, the visual designs tend to be similar because th visual caption judges ( who tend to be the same 6-8 visual judges or so each year ) have their preferences as well. Right now, visual caption Judges ( for a brief example ) like rectangles, and "V " formations that appear and disappear quickly. If a Corps designer is into straight lines, executed well for a portion of their show, then they do that design format in their show at their own risk. So it's all preference really. It becomes even more difficult when a judge is aked to compare and evaluate ( say ), the SCV, and the Blue Devils. Corps at the highest level of execution standards. Particularly on Finals Night. On Finals Night the booth judges can not hear, nor see, much of these corps performances because of the frenzy of the crowd in fron of them. As such, they simply make a judgement on these dissimilar but extremely well done productions based on preference and perhaps influences beyond that which is in front of them, ( human nature ) or a best guess estimate of the show they can't hear or see totally, on historical factors. As a result, it is no surprise that the winner of the Semi's is essentially the DCI Champion on Finals Night 95 % of the time. How should a drum corps fan deal with this ? Well, one suggestion is to not take the scoring as perfection personified, nor put the judge in an exalted position, yet be sympathetic to the impossibility of their situation. They do the best they can. I leave before the scores are announced. The scores arn't why I go to the shows. Many times, a corps that finishes lower was more enjoyable for me anyway. If I'm a parent, or an alumnus, or have some connection to a particular corps, well then it's understandable why the scores take on a life of their own for some people. That's certainly understandable to me. But people who scratch their head at the scoring or get all worked up over the scores might want to take a fresh look at the impossible task it is to judge a drum corps show with any degree of objectivity or qualitative or verifiable proof as to whose corps or show is " better ". Just my 2 cents worth.

Edited July 17, 2004 by Lieut. General Effect

[manlybandman]

Lieut. General Effect really makes a strong point.......thanks for the judging overview. I know that it must be hard to be a judge, with so many different things happening on the field and so many different 'styles' of show.

Can't say that I'd ever want to be a DCI Judge.....