Lame timpanists? Or lame instructors?

[los]

I saw lots of people playing French grip (the best grip, in my opinion) with good technique. I just didn't see evidence of chops

Could it be possible that some might possibly not truly understand the mechanics behind French Grip?!? I agree, that these players have great technique but just not applying their knowledge.  Here's a sample from J.Cassella and J.Acona's Front Ensemble book UPFRONT : http://www.tapspace.com/music/UpFrontTechnique.pdf  and Don Famularo touches  all 3 match grips("German", "French", and "American") grips in his drumset cyber lessons...  http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

I don't particularly concider myself a user of the "French Grip". I'm not a closed minded and  I think it's important to learn all grips possible but I feel more comfortable using "American grip" for most modern literature and using "French Grip" for peices that require legato strokes and rolls..but that's just me. The strange thing is I play alot of marimba using Steven's grip. I know, I'm strange. 

I noticed a lot at Allentown was most timpanists switched to hard felt mallets when they wanted to play louder and/or with more articulation. This isn't necessary---in fact, it's better to go to softer mallets with larger heads when you need some serious volume...and with good technique you can articulate just fine with a medium mallet.

Yea, I agree. Especially when the leading Front Ensemble arrangers/instructors are preaching "that 2 secrets to sound projection is Mass and Weight" toward their keyboard mallets , but some other instructors are not doing the same toward timp. mallets. Let's not forget that quote from Jeff Lee's , "Velocity, in an audio sense, dictates attack quality (timbre), while volume dictates dynamic presence."

The weight of the stroke is also a factor in procuing sound and projection.

Anyways, I'd love to hear more of you oppinion sometime but if you feel this way about drumcorps than I'd hate for you to hear some of the "average" high school music programs lately. Let us know when things get rolling for you

Edited August 9, 2005 by los

[SWriverstone]

Hi Los...

I think most players understand the mechanics behind French grip...but what they don't get is that to project effectively, you've got to have enormous strength in that fulcrum between your thumb and first finger. You support the fulcrum with other fingers, but you still have to have the strength in the fulcrum itself.

The only way you build this strength is by pinching. Yep, plain ol' pinching---hard! If you're doing it right, it should hurt. If it doesn't hurt, you're not building any strength there. You won't make the fulcrum any stronger just by playing without pinching.

As it happens, pinching is also how to improve articulation (e.g. staccato strokes). Note I'm not suggesting you actually pinch or squeeze tightly all the time when you're playing---I'm making a distinction between a method of increasing strength (pinching) and the overall improvement in volume/projection it results in.

Those tips on the Vic Firth site are pretty good overall...but timpani is a bit of an arcane, "voodoo" artistry. The best way to learn (if you're serious about learning) is to go to the "Jedi Timpani Masters" themselves---the folks who play timpani for full-time, professional symphony orchestras. Nobody knows more than they do, and playing timpani for orchestral music is the most demanding form of timpani there is on the planet, period.

Having said that, I think there is a lot that can be taught via the web or in a book, etc. I'll work on it!

Scott

[los]

Cool man, thanks for the insight. I posted those VF clips just for the "young ones" or non-percussionist to have a reference. (You never know who's reading these things.

I can't wait to see you finished product. You seem like an awesome educator!!! are you going to Pasic? If so, im me and maybe we could hang out.

[JMS0527]

Those tips on the Vic Firth site are pretty good overall...but timpani is a bit of an arcane, "voodoo" artistry. The best way to learn (if you're serious about learning) is to go to the "Jedi Timpani Masters" themselves---the folks who play timpani for full-time, professional symphony orchestras. Nobody knows more than they do, and playing timpani for orchestral music is the most demanding form of timpani there is on the planet, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

w/Stp:

I guess my grip is the French one...

But, I sure as #### don't hold the mallets that close to one another

I wish there was a grip around here that I could play in :(

[CapRegTimp04]

Hi Los...

I think most players understand the mechanics behind French grip...but what they don't get is that to project effectively, you've got to have enormous strength in that fulcrum between your thumb and first finger. You support the fulcrum with other fingers, but you still have to have the strength in the fulcrum itself.

The only way you build this strength is by pinching. Yep, plain ol' pinching---hard! If you're doing it right, it should hurt. If it doesn't hurt, you're not building any strength there. You won't make the fulcrum any stronger just by playing without pinching.

As it happens, pinching is also how to improve articulation (e.g. staccato strokes). Note I'm not suggesting you actually pinch or squeeze tightly all the time when you're playing---I'm making a distinction between a method of increasing strength (pinching) and the overall improvement in volume/projection it results in.

Those tips on the Vic Firth site are pretty good overall...but timpani is a bit of an arcane, "voodoo" artistry. The best way to learn (if you're serious about learning) is to go to the "Jedi Timpani Masters" themselves---the folks who play timpani for full-time, professional symphony orchestras. Nobody knows more than they do, and playing timpani for orchestral music is the most demanding form of timpani there is on the planet, period.

Having said that, I think there is a lot that can be taught via the web or in a book, etc. I'll work on it!

Scott

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hey man, as you can guess...i'm a timpanist, and have been (seriously) for the past two years of drum corps (with capital regiment) and i've got a couple of questions for you

1. about french grip-i've been told both ends of the fulcrum strength are acceptable...in 2004 i squeezed the poop out of the mallets...this past year, less emphasis was placed on the fulcrum strength and moreso on the snap of the wrist...is it just two different schools of thought or what? both techniques required a ton of practice and both hurt quite a bit at points...

2. what are the big differences between "classical" timpani and drum corps timpani?

3. what did you think of my playing, just for kicks? i thought i had a pretty challenging book both years...and quite honestly, if you didn't hear me, you weren't listening :) :P :) because there were some parts where i was hitting the poop out of the drums

hopefully i will be able to continue playing timpani (although it won't be with cap reg anymore) and i hope your insight will better my playing and all that jazz...

[SWriverstone]

1. about french grip-i've been told both ends of the fulcrum strength are acceptable...in 2004 i squeezed the poop out of the mallets...this past year, less emphasis was placed on the fulcrum strength and moreso on the snap of the wrist...is it just two different schools of thought or what?  both techniques required a ton of practice and both hurt quite a bit at points...

Hi CapRegTimp04...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "both ends of the fulcrum strength," but I'm guessing you're wondering which is better---squeezing like crazy? Or being loose and relaxed? The answer is...both!

Playing timpani (like a lot of drumming) is a combination of arm, wrists, and fingers. If you're playing French grip, it requires more finger strength (particularly between thumb and first finger) than any other kind of drumming. Many timpanists don't play French grip because it's harder. Holding the mallets, say, like a tenor player (which is more like German grip) is easier...but I don't think it gives you as effective an "up" stroke and as free a rebound as French grip.

So the following comments are focused on French grip (though there is some overlap with other grip styles).

Every time you play, every part you play, your fingers are constantly tightening and loosening. When you want a more staccato sound, you tighten up. When you want more legato, you loosen up. Same goes for volume---when you're playing quietly (and legato) you loosen up...but when you need to play fortissimo, you tighten up. So there's a continuum of tensions---from loose to tight---that's constantly shifting depending on the music and the sound you're after.

Now here's where "finger chops" come into play: when you want a staccato sound for an extended passage, you've got to squeeze that thumb/first-finger hard! And if you don't have enough strength there, it hurts. More importantly, it's hard to focus on sounding good when your fingers are hurting. so you've got to strengthen that thumb/first-finger pinch.

Finger chops (referring to the thumb/first-finger pinch) are also critical when you're playing long, loud rolls. The louder the roll, the more the mallets travel up and down...and the more force is exerted on that thumb/first-finger pinch.

Alas, no pain---no gain. The only way to strengthen that thumb/first-finger pinch is to work on your chops---exactly the same way a snare drummer would---only you do it with French grip. Back when I was learning, I played a LOT on my knee. :) Almost every second I wasn't actually playing in a rehearsal, I was just doing single strokes and rolls on my leg. And here's a way to make doing that even more effective:

When you're practicing those French-grip single strokes, try to maximize the up/down range of motion of the mallets (using only wrists and fingers---not arms)...while simultaneously playing soft. In other words, look like you're playing loud...but play soft. This puts a huge amount of force and strain on your thumb/first-finger pinch, because with each stroke, it acts like a "brake" on the mallet when it comes down...and then provides the sudden acceleration going back up. It'll be hard at first (and hurt)...but the more you do this on a non-rebounding surface (like your knee), it'll seem WAY easier when you actually play on a timp head (with rebound).

Another way I build strength is to take biggest pair of marching snare sticks I can find---flip them over---and play on a RealFeel pad using French grip. The weight of the butt end of the stick is a good "resistance" training for your fingers.

2. what are the big differences between "classical" timpani and drum corps timpani?

There really isn't any difference...except in dynamic range. On stage, indoors, behind an orchestra, you'll truly play everywhere from "ppp" to "fff." Outdoors in front of a drum corps, you should never actually play below about "mp" because anything actually softer than that would be a silent move, and you'd only be doing it in a silly attempt to convince judges that you're musical.

You'll never play any louder in front of a drum corps than you would on stage with a band/orchestra. (If you don't think you play as loud with an orchestra, then you probably have never played with a good orchestra---because many times I've played (in an orchestra) as loud as I could physically hit the drums!) You will, however, play in the "f-fff" range more often in a drum corps...which is even more reason why you need chops of steel.

3. what did you think of my playing, just for kicks?  i thought i had a pretty challenging book both years...and quite honestly, if you didn't hear me, you weren't listening  :)  :P  :)  because there were some parts where i was hitting the poop out of the drums

Gosh, I hate to say it...but I don't remember your playing! I saw everyone in Allentown...but of course it's hard to remember details when you see 24 corps in two days.

Here's a quick word about volume on timpani---generally, the louder you play, the more you'll bring your arms into the stroke. If I'm gonna play a note "fff" for example, I'll literally start with my mallet (or the head of the mallet) above my head! And I'll try to keep a somewhat looser grip on the mallet (but not so loose I drop it), and let the force come about 70% from my arm, and 30% from my fingers.

You've gotta remember: timpani is a VISUAL instrument---it's not just about sound, it's about the SHOW! A great timpanist GETS INTO IT!

I'll post more later!

Scott

[CapRegTimp04]

hmm....so i guess i wasn't doing anything terribly wrong hahaha

well, my first year they put a lot of emphasis on squeezing the crap out of the fulcrum (which did hurt quite often)

this past year more emphasis was put on snapping the wrist and not squeezing so hard...more legato style i guess...

so it seems that one year was based on more staccato tech and one was more legato tech...hmmm...

one thing i know i'm good at though is tough pedaling passages. this past year i had an absolute ton and a half of changes. i pretty muched played the bari parts hehe...i think i counted 275 (which is probably a little bit low because i did it in my head and i suck at math and counting and stuff like that)

[SWriverstone]

so it seems that one year was based on more staccato tech and one was more legato tech...hmmm...

Yep, sounds like that's what was going on. The reality is that they're both important---and I'd always teach someone both techniques at the same time.

one thing i know i'm good at though is tough pedaling passages.  this past year i had an absolute ton and a half of changes.  i pretty muched played the bari parts hehe...i think i counted 275 (which is probably a little bit low because i did it in my head and i suck at math and counting and stuff like that)

Tuning changes are fun (and challenging)...but in my opinion, pit arrangers (and/or whoever else has a role in the timp parts) are way too carried away with tuning changes. I think a big reason I didn't see timpani players as physically into the parts as they should be is because you guys were all so busy pedaling your butts off!

Here's a radical thought---stand up! Yes, that's what I said---stand and play. I'd never play any other way, unless I absolutely had to sit for a series of rapid tuning changes, but then I'd stand up again. Timpani are a big, physical instrument. You've got to be able to move freely and fast around the drums, and you've got to use your whole body to really play well. Sitting on a stool is just too confining in my opinion.

Now I admit that if you've got 300 tuning changes then standing is tough---but remember, I said you shouldn't have so many tuning changes! Timpani---even in drum corps---aren't a melodic instrument. They provide harmonic support, and are used just to emphasize certain harmonic elements in a piece. To be playing the entire baritone part is overkill, and weakens the impact of timpani. Listen to any symphony by Mahler, and you'll hear exactly what I mean---you don't hear timpani all the time...but when you do hear them, it's electrifying because of the power and impact!

I often hear players say "I'm too tall to stand, and hunching over is painful." I agree! There is a better way to play standing...but it takes conditioning and effort---and pays off bigtime! I'm 6' tall, and I played standing for years and never had back problems. The secret? I stood "ninja-style." Yeah, sounds silly, but I'm very serious. When I played, I kept my back upright, and simply spread my feet/legs and lowered myself---almost a squatting stance. But I was constantly moving from side to side, just like a martial arts expert. This puts a burn into your thighs, and might not feel great in your knees. So you work up to it---over time, you'll develop far stronger quads and muscles supporting your knees. (I've never had a knee problem in my life---I think largely due to thousands of hours of "ninja-style" timpani playing!)

Trust me---if you think you can put your whole body into playing from a stool, you're wrong. You can put so much more movement and energy into your playing while standing---and it looks a lot better from the audience's perspective too! Finally, you'd be amazed at how many tuning changes you can do standing on one foot---not as many as using two feet on a stool...but again---you shouldn't have that many changes!

Scott

PS - There's no better way to get a real understanding of how to write for timpani than by listening to the masters---composers of great symphonic music. Here's a quick list of pieces that have awesome timpani parts...

Any Mahler Symphony (especially 2, 5, and 7).

Copland's 3rd Symphony (movements 1 and 2, especially)

Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste

John Williams' score for the original Star Wars movie (from 1977)

Tchaikovsky's 5th and 6th symphonies

Respighi's "Roman Festivals"

There are lots more, of course...but you can't go wrong with these!

[BlueDevilTimp05]

Scott,

I am interested in what you thought about my playing in Allentown. I play timpani for the Blue Devils. I had individual mics on each of my drums. I am shocked that you did not hear me. Both Percussion Judges were ranting and raving about my sound presence being wonderful and some times to much. I play with French grip.

I would love to see you at a few of our camps to put into action what you are talking about. There are not enough GOOD timpani players out there that are willing to share their knowledge and help us youngsters out.

I had the hardest book I have ever played this past season and felt that I gave everything I could give. If you remember any of my problems, please give me some solutions.

Thanks so much,

Amanda Montemayor

[SWriverstone]

I am interested in what you thought about my playing in Allentown. I play timpani for the Blue Devils. I had individual mics on each of my drums. I am shocked that you did not hear me.    Both Percussion Judges were ranting and raving about my sound presence being wonderful and some times to much. I play with French grip.

Hi Amanda...I remember you! I actually watched you guys practice Friday (on the field right next to the stadium). As I recall, your technique looked solid...but...I think you could have played (at times) with more power.

When I said earlier that I "couldn't hear" timpanists, that wasn't literally the case---I could hear everyone...but I just don't think the volume was enough relative to the output of the rest of the pit, horns and battery.

Please understand that my perspective regarding volume and balance comes from years playing in a large, professional symphony orchestra indoors. In that situation, the volume of the timpani---again, relative to the rest of the orchestra---is much higher than in drum corps. You can hear this by listening to any good recording of a work with big timpani parts (e.g. Mahler, Tchaikovsky, etc.). In the big "hits" (to use a corps term), the sound level of the timpani alone is equal to the entire rest of the orchestra! When the timpani have a big "ff" entrance, you HEAR it (and feel it in the floor of the auditorium)!

That incredibly powerful presence of timpani is what makes it such an intense blast to play in an orchestra. We always joked that the timpanist literally "kicks the orchestra in the butt!"

Now in drum corps, it's obviously a different situation. You're outdoors (sound disappears immediately), you don't have a nice wooden stage to help resonate the sound, and you have one of the loudest musical ensembles on the planet behind you! So...some might suggest that timpani in drum corps can never have the same impact they have in an orchestra. I'd like to think otherwise, which is why I keep saying...more volume! :)

I should also add that my comments come from "live listening," as opposed to recordings. I'm sure when everyone listens to this year's CDs, the timpani will sound great. But that's because there's a big condenser mic right over you! (It would sound very different if they put the mics halfway up the stands!)

I don't know what the music background is of most DCI percussion judges...and I'm sure some have had orchestral experience. But I'd be willing to bet most don't (or at least haven't spent hundreds of hours listening live to professional symphonies). So I don't think their "audio frame of reference" is properly calibrated in terms of volume.

I also think (as I may have mentioned earlier in this thread) that there seems to be an idea amongst judges that timpani are a "finesse" instrument---and that if you aren't "coaxing" the sound out of the head (enhanced by lots of upward follow-through after each stroke) you're not being musical. Again, this is just not an accurate mental image of what timpani really are! All the "coaxing" and "finesse" stuff is valid---but only for beginners who don't know anything but to pound away with no technique. And all that "pull the sound out of the head" stuff goes out the window when you're playing fortissimo and higher.

Saul Goodman---the "father" of all professional timpanists in the US (he taught Vic Firth everything he knows, for example), once said to me (and I quote)..."You've got to BEAT THE #### OUT OF IT!!!" :) His point was there are times when NO finesse is involved in playing timpani---times when you have to give it 110%---absolutely everything you've got, and quite literally try to break the head! If---after a big, loud passage---your heart rate hasn't jumped up to 160 or more, you simply aren't putting enough into it. It's physical. And doing this does not make you "unmusical." It makes you a timpanist.

So in conclusion, I think that timpani could definitely be louder in drum corps---both from players giving it more effort...as well as through more amplification (if necessary).

I would love to see you at a few of our camps to put into action what you are talking about. There are not enough GOOD timpani players out there that are willing to share their knowledge and help us youngsters out.

I'd love to come to a camp---all it takes is money. :) I'm just talking about the cost of the trip, since I live on the East coast. I might be able to figure out a way, and/or perhaps some organizations might be willing to help fund a weekend clinic.

I had the hardest book I have ever played this past season and felt that I gave everything I could give. If you remember any of my problems, please give me some solutions.

Gosh, I'm sorry I can't remember anything that specific. But I will say this---I bet you could have played harder! :) I say that only because in my experience, most timpanists don't ever work enough on pure strength-and-chop-building. I don't say this critically, 'cause you're working hard enough just to get your technique down, to learn the book, work on intonation, etc. I'm sure you did give it everything you had...but imagine how much more you could have given if you had spent (literally) at least 1 hour a day for six months playing French grip, with the butt ends of big snare sticks, on a RealFeel pad until your hands and fingers HURT. :)

I love drum corps and I love timpani...so I'm happy to share the knowledge and experience I was lucky enough to acquire from some of the best timpanists in the world!

Scott