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This is a topic that quite frankly, gets me quite angry at times.

I have marched 3 years div I and 2 years PIW indoor. I also have been writnig drill and helping visual programs for a few years. In most high school situations I would say form. But we are not talk ing about high school here. We are talking about drum corps. With that in mind, I am 100% behind marching dots. Here's why.

Personal Accountability

Each performer should know their stuff like their were born knowing it. Marching forms tends to allow individuals to coast along on other people's hard work. To many times you have guys in the snare line who only know how to "dress center". When you make the cleanliness of the drill dependant on other people, you make the performers dependant on others. And that is dangerously close to laziness and leeching off of others talent and work. Someone told me that there is no such thing as a "line player." Meaning, if you can't play the notes by yourself, you can't play them with the line. You are either contributing to the ensemble or you are hurting it. And when you rely on others to march the drill well while you just follow along, you are not contrinuting.

Consistancy

When you march forms, you will never do the same thing twice. It is as simple as that. The step size you had in rep #7 during visual block will not be the same as rep #3 or #9. Or what you do in the run through. And who knows what might happen during the show. The whole point of practicing is to make something happen the same way EVERY time. And when you have so many people all looking to someone else to figure out what is right, it will always be a mess. Even with dress points, it only takes 1 brain fart or missed direction/change to ruin the drill for 30+ people.

Worry about your own job

Along the same lines, if you march dots, you only have to worry about your own show. You don't need to think "Is Steve the mello player going to do it right today? Or is he going to take to small steps and screw me over?". Just know your show, and march it well. If Steve flubs his drill, the staff will see it and take care of it.

Elimination of "Junior Staff Members"

And it should be just the staff taking care of it. Or at most, section leaders. With forms, people are notorious for being "junior instructors". People who always tell others to adjust to them. Of course they are never wrong. You might be inclined to call these people "dot nazis". Well everyone should be a dot nazi. If they are on their dot, get on yours and the drill will be fine. If they are wrong, get on your dot and they will look wrong. And the staff will fix them. Just worry about your own show and let others worry about theirs.

It's how we play music

When you learn music in drum corps. Do you just follow the people next to you? Or are you supposed to know the notes, articulation, shaping, ect yourself? We have sheet music. You are supposed to memorize it. This is true for every ensemble out their. I do not know of one group that does not stress the acccuracy of the written show. Sure there are times when the horns listen to the battery for time, or the snare match heights. But if 1 trumpet comes in early, is the rest of the section supposed to jump the gun with him? If the center snare drops a stick and is out for a bar, is the whole line supposed to stop playing? No. You play your own book like the arranger wants.

Cascade Failure/Effect

One of the worst problems with marching forms. What might be a small mistake to 1 person in 1 set might completely screw someone else over a few sets later. If you are suppsed to dress down a line and the guys on the end make it to shallow or their intervals are too small, what happens 2 moves later when you had a set that was suppsosed to be a 4 to 5 but is now impossible? Stuff like that happend to me all the time when I marched. A guy on the end would have really small steps, so he wouldnt really concentrate on his drill for that move. While people on the other end, end up paying for his mistakes by having to make massive and awkward, sometime impossible corrections. The drill is written so everyone can perform it. We all learned in math class that the farther away from the starting point of a line you get, the bigger the changes in the angle are. So if you are lining a field and your where you start painting is off by 1 inch where you are, it might set the line off 5 feet on the other end of the field. That same stuff happens in drill. And when you have 20+ baritones who are all human beings relying on the 2 guys at the end with small steps, it is a recipe for disater. I know I have been screwed over more times than I can count from just that kind of thing. Good luck trying pass throughs when people are just dress intervals that are too small.

You don't solve a problem by creating more

We have all been in those drill rehearsals. The ones about halfway through tour, when drill is getting changed and people are starting to get on each others nerves. You are on the field and 1 set just isnt hitting the way it should. You raise your hand to ask if it can be fixed, but the vis guys want to move on. So when you say, "my dot is 3.5 outside the 35B and 8 behind the front hash", they just yell and say "I don't care what your dot is, the judge doesnt have your drill, just get in the form."

I ask you, what did that fix? Nothing. The source of the problem is still there. And it will keep happening until the guy who is causing the problem get's his head out of his ### and checks his dot book. But if you march dots, this situation would not even occur. Everyone just gets on their dot and the one guy who is spacing out looks wrong, and the vis techs fix it. When you rely on others to march your drill, when they do something wrong, every one else needs to do something wrong to "fix" it. But it's still wrong. And 2 weeks later, when they ask why that form is so off, you can't just tell the staff it's because they ignored the problem 12 days ago and it just kept getting worse every time the line "adjusted".

Does all this mean that the members should just stare at the ground and ignore the rest of the corps? No. But I belive that far to many ensemble who start out with dot books and mark things off abandon it too quickly in favor of quick fixes. Near the end of the season, the emphasis should be on form. But only when the corps is good enough with their dots so that the biggest correction is maybe .5 to 1 step. And in visual block, when checking a form, it should ALWAYS be dots. The last saturday morning you should still have your dot book out their. Of course by then you should have it memorized so well you can tell the vis staff what page the the grass stains or scribble marks are on without looking at it. Too many ensembles don't force their members to memorize their dots, and it just causes more problems in the end. In a performnace and in practice you should always be aware of what is going on around you. To not do so is dangerous. But that is never an excuse to abandon what you should have been practicing the same way all day.

We all know doing something differnt in a show is what causes the most amount of problems. So why teach a method that casues that by it's very nature?

Edited by G-Cym
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G-Cym nailed it perfectly. I've marched and taught under both systems, and dot marching has turned out the best results in the long run. The guy next to you on the field might be an idiot. So why worry about an idiot's mistakes when you can clean your own house, and let the staff deal with it when they see the dude 5 yards out of the form. Right there you solved a single problem, instead of a problem involving 20+ people.

Think about your music. You are handed a sheet of music, and you play it just fine yourself. But when you get in a group, the dude next to you is playing everything down 1/2 step. Following the guiding philosophy in drill, you should start playing the same wrong notes. It does no good. Drill is the same as music. Both have to be executed to the same standard.

I'm not saying guiding is bad, some groups do just fine under it. Dot marching for me has eliminated many of the problems that come with guiding, and really has not brought in many new ones.

If your band or corps has a solid understanding of step size, takes even size steps to dots, and memorizes their dots, you will have no problem with dot marching.

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G-Cym nailed it perfectly.  I've marched and taught under both systems, and dot marching has turned out the best results in the long run.  The guy next to you on the field might be an idiot.  So why worry about an idiot's mistakes when you can clean your own house, and let the staff deal with it when they see the dude 5 yards out of the form.  Right there you solved a single problem, instead of a problem involving 20+ people.

Think about your music.  You are handed a sheet of music, and you play it just fine yourself.  But when you get in a group, the dude next to you is playing everything down 1/2 step.  Following the guiding philosophy in drill, you should start playing the same wrong notes.  It does no good.  Drill is the same as music.  Both have to be executed to the same standard.

I'm not saying guiding is bad, some groups do just fine under it.  Dot marching for me has eliminated many of the problems that come with guiding, and really has not brought in many new ones. 

If your band or corps has a solid understanding of step size, takes even size steps to dots, and memorizes their dots, you will have no problem with dot marching.

If the guy marching next to you is an idiot, he will have problems marching to the form or to the dot. B)

If your band or corps has a solid understanding of step size, takes even steps to dots and memorizes their forms AND the correct PATH to those forms, then and only then will you begin to have consistant success.

To tell you the truth, I have read these dot versus form arguments for a while and have always wondered where I stood on the debate, until now, I think. Bear with me because this argument was non-existent when I was involved in the activity.

If I understand correctly, marching to form does not incorporate coordinates (dots)?

Like the Blue Devil example with the acetates showing say an arc with a beginning and end without plotting each individual persons spot in the form. (By the way, that is also the way Pete Emmons wrote and taught his drills). Or is it that you do have dots at the beginning and end of each set and if there is a problem during transitions, dressing the form takes precedence over landing on your dot?

And marching by dot plots out everyones beginning and ending spot yet while you march from dot to dot you ignore everyone else and just focus on your own responsibilities of step size and path and hitting your dot when you're supposed to?

If I have these definitions right I can honestly say that I would never try to say that one is right and the other is wrong or even that one is better than the other. They are BOTH neccessary tools of a successful marching program.

When I wrote drill I charted every beginning and ending dot for every person for every set (form or page of drill) in the show. It was a very tedius and painstaking process but I wanted and needed to know that perfection was possible and I knew that if I could draw a perfect picture with perfect intervals and distances then all I would have to do is teach it and clean it and it COULD be perfect. I never gave up on using those dots to confirm whether or not the corps was achieving success. I guess that makes me a dot guy, right?

The problem is I couldn't chart every single step of the transitions, heck, for many of the transitions I didn't even know how I wanted them to look until I saw them marched several times. The transitions are the hardest part of teaching and cleaning drill because they are not charted, therefore you must use dressing and memorizing spatial relationships to make them look the way you want them to.

My method was to make each person responsible for one interval and or distance and one spatial relationship in each transition. Which interval or which distance is determined by which direction you are dressing, therefore when a problem arises it is easy, as well as indisputable to know who to correct and explain why it was their responsibility and not someone elses. This makes me a form guy.

Some forms, especially changing the angles of straight lines such as with block rotations, I taught by focusing totally on step size and individual path only and the achievement came as a direct result. (Dot guy)

But I came to realize that even with 128 human beings trying to do their best, each nights show was a living, breathing work of art that would never be the same twice, and that’s when you have to allow for the knowledge of what the form should LOOK like to take precedence over the dot. The judges don’t know where your dot is argument. (Form guy)

So what does all this make me. I guess I’m a dot/form guy.

Edited by Russellrks
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You have a dot. That is point A. Your next dot is Point B. Guiding to the form is what you do between Point A and Point B.

I agree....other wise you see more individuals marching to a spot rather than a group.

The ultimate goal is to hit your dot or spot on the field....but like George Zingali once told a member from Star, "If the form takes you to McDonalds, then go to McDonalds.....if it takes you to Burger King, then go there and have a Whopper!"

The only problem I have encountered with groups that stick to forms only is it posed a problem between elements. For example, one group was guideing to the form while another group guided to that group. The problem was they all were off by 10 yards and the guard could not get to their equipment and next set in time!

I've always stressed, go to your dot but stay with the form getting there.

Edited by Malibu
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If the guy marching next to you is an idiot, he will have problems marching to the form or to the dot. B)

Yep...G-Cym did nail it. But this point above is an important one. A dot-focused system, I feel, is not appropriate for 99% of high school marching bands (maybe not 99% of the kids, but 99% of the bands). Dots are all about math and taking an analytical approach to moving about what is basically a massive x/y grid...in 3 dimensions, over time, while playing music, and god knows what else. So that 14yo freshmen clarinet player who doesn't know their ### from a hole in the ground just isn't going to grasp dots it is too cerebral. Their only shot at success is to stay between two people. You have to write and teach to the lowest common denomiator.

M

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Now you are changing the comparison in an effort to get the outcome you are looking for, which is to get me to admit that form/interval errors in a dot system are more "evident" than form/interval errors in a form system.  I will not admit that because it is not true.  A form/interval error is the same in either case.  A spade is a spade, in any light.

M

My question to you is, how could you possibly know that a field placement error is in fact an error unless you have prior knowlege of where it's supposed to be? Unless you've seen the drill charts I really don't know how anyone can tell that a field placement error is there at all. However, it doesn't take prior knowlege of the "correct" form to be able to identify a form/interval error. My legally blind grandmother could have been able to tell me "that line isn't straight", but if a clean-looking form is a step or two off I doubt there are many who would be able to tell.

Personal Accountability

Each performer should know their stuff like their were born knowing it.  Marching forms tends to allow individuals to coast along on other people's hard work.  To many times you have guys in the snare line who only know how to "dress  center".  When you make the cleanliness of the drill dependant on other people, you make the performers dependant on others.  And that is dangerously close to laziness and leeching off of others talent and work.  Someone told me that there is no such thing as a "line player."  Meaning, if you can't play the notes by yourself, you can't play them with the line.  You are either contributing to the ensemble or you are hurting it.  And when you rely on others to march the drill well while you just follow along, you are not contrinuting.

Worry about your own job

Along the same lines, if you march dots, you only have to worry about your own show.  You don't need to think "Is Steve the mello player going to do it right today? Or is he going to take to small steps and screw me over?".  Just know your show, and march it well.  If Steve flubs his drill, the staff will see it and take care of it.

Elimination of "Junior Staff Members"

And it should be just the staff taking care of it.  Or at most, section leaders.  With forms, people are notorious for being "junior instructors".  People who always tell others to adjust to them.  Of course they are never wrong.  You might be inclined to call these people "dot nazis".  Well everyone should be a dot nazi.  If they are on their dot, get on yours and the drill will be fine.  If they are wrong, get on your dot and they will look wrong.  And the staff will fix them.  Just worry about your own show and let others worry about theirs.

I like how the dot system forces personal responsibility. And Junior Drill Instructors really are annoying, everyone worrying about themselves and letting the staff worry about the ones who aren't getting is a very good thing. But does that dimish the amount of "doing it for the guy next to you"? Back when I marched, if there was some mistake I was making in the drill, and it effected other people, I wanted to make sure I fixed it so that they wouldn't have much to say about it. I never marched in a dot system so I can't speak from experience.

It's how we play music

When you learn music in drum corps.  Do you just follow the people next to you?  Or are you supposed to know the notes, articulation, shaping, ect yourself?  We have sheet music.  You are supposed to memorize it.  This is true for every ensemble out their.  I do not know of one group that does not stress the acccuracy of the written show.  Sure there are times when the horns listen to the battery for time, or the snare match heights.  But if 1 trumpet comes in early, is the rest of the section supposed to jump the gun with him?  If the center snare drops a stick and is out for a bar, is the whole line supposed to stop playing?  No.  You play your own book like the arranger wants.

Yes, you're supposed to know the notes, articulation, shaping, etc. yourself. You should be able to perform it all yourself without the rest of the ensemble playing with you. However, if you play music with "earplugs" on and don't listen to those around you, that is just wrong. You simply cannot play in tune without listening, you can't balance without listening, you can't play in time without listening. You can't match articulations without listening. Yes, some of this changes when you get on the field and get spread out, but you don't LEARN the music in that environment. You learn it in closer quarters, in the arc, where you can listen to each other and hear how your individual part fits in with the MUSIC. Hearing how your part fits in increases your understanding of it and then usually helps you perform your part better.

And when errors happen like center snare dropping a stick or mellophone player playing a quarter tone flat, good aural skills and common sense will help a musician know when to adjust to other performers, and when to ignore them completely.

Cascade Failure/Effect

One of the worst problems with marching forms.  What might be a small mistake to 1 person in 1 set might completely screw someone else over a few sets later.  You don't solve a problem by creating more

We have all been in those drill rehearsals.  The ones about halfway through tour, when drill is getting changed and people are starting to get on each others nerves.  You are on the field and 1 set just isnt hitting the way it should.  You raise your hand to ask if it can be fixed, but the vis guys want to move on.  So when you say, "my dot is 3.5 outside the 35B and 8 behind the front hash", they just yell and say "I don't care what your dot is, the judge doesnt have your drill, just get in the form."

We all know doing something differnt in a show is what causes the most amount of problems.  So why teach a method that casues that by it's very nature?

Dealing with individual errors in music, as I said in my above paragraph, can be the same as dealing with individual errors in drill. If someone who is a dress point misses a stepoff, common sense would dictate that that person be ignored until they get themselves back in. In the case of an angle being set wrong by a few people up front being a centimeter off of their dot, throwing off people in the back by several steps, well a solution to this could be to have everyone in the angle responsible for knowing the angle, rather than following what they see like sheep. In other words, be more "dot oriented" in that set. If people aren't all at least in the ballpark of hitting their dots, then guiding will cause some major problems.

I highly doubt that any corps or band that guides to the form does so 100%. Even when I marched and guiding to the form was stressed, we sometimes had to go for dots. We were required to know our dots, particularly yardline relationships. I'm not doubting that a visual program with a dot-emphasis doesn't work, obviously it will if everyone is mature enough and believes in it. But just like in music how a musician peforms musically much better when he or she understands how his/her part fits in with the greater whole, I believe that a performer marches the drill better when they understand how their dot fits in with the whole picture.

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My question to you is, how could you possibly know that a field placement error is in fact an error unless you have prior knowlege of where it's supposed to be?  Unless you've seen the drill charts I really don't know how anyone can tell that a field placement error is there at all.  However, it doesn't take prior knowlege of the "correct" form to be able to identify a form/interval error.  My legally blind grandmother could have been able to tell me "that line isn't straight", but if a clean-looking form is a step or two off I doubt there are many who would be able to tell.

Right--there really isn't any question about this. I'm not debating which type of error is more 'noticable'...that's not the issue. Perfect performer spacial relationships are just that, regardless of where the arc is formed and how that relates to the drill chart. It doesn't matter if it happens within a dot system or a form system, perfect is perfect, and flaws are flaws, either way. My issue is in the stupid comparison of perfect spacial relationships in a form system to imperfect spacial relationships in a dot system, and which is more 'noticable'. The system doesn't matter in this comparison. The comparison is fundamentaly flawed and skewed to favor the form system.

Am I the only one who sees this?

:blush:

M

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Right--there really isn't any question about this.  I'm not debating which type of error is more 'noticable'...that's not the issue.  Perfect performer spacial relationships are just that, regardless of where the arc is formed and how that relates to the drill chart.  It doesn't matter if it happens within a dot system or a form system, perfect is perfect, and flaws are flaws, either way.  My issue is in the stupid comparison of perfect spacial relationships in a form system to imperfect spacial relationships in a dot system, and which is more 'noticable'.  The system doesn't matter in this comparison.  The comparison is fundamentaly flawed and skewed to favor the form system.

Am I the only one who sees this?

:blush:

M

Perhaps the point of this discussion (within this whole thread) was that you're more likely to see a form/interval error in the dot system, while more likely to see a field placement error in the form system. And if the form/interval errors are more visible... well you get the idea...

In theory it makes sense. In practice, that may be a different story.

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It's "consistency," GCym. Just to be consistent.

Topic? We in the Knights were always told "Don't be a form hero." Meaning, I guess, stay with the corps when there's a form that doesn't quite hit. But just make sure it hits first. That was nearly 20 years ago, and I'd reckon marching and drill have chjanged a bit since then.

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If your band or corps has a solid understanding of step size, takes even size steps to dots, and memorizes their dots, you will have no problem with dot marching.

One problem with a pure dot system is how you handle the movement from the dot on page 6 to the dot on page 7. Unless you understand the form, you can end up with two VERY sharp and clear sets (pages 6 and 7) and a WHOLE lot of 'fuzz' in between. "Gee, I hit my dot...what is the problem?"

In rehearsal with the band I work with, we do use dots as destination points page by page, but we make sure the kids know 1) what the form is and 2) how we progress from dot-to-dot, form-wise.

Mike

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