Explain VK scores to a brass guy.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I agree with VK's placement. I was there in 1992 (man, I'm old) and it was my first exposure to drum corps. I had nothing to compare it to, but now, looking back on '92, it was one of the most amazing, magical years in drum corps history. I seemed like EVERY corps had a great show. In another year, maybe VK places better, but not in '92.

We can only dream that 2006 is as good as 1992.

Why doesn't DCI set up a scoring system to ensure it? Then we wouldn't have to dream about it. We could expect it.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Although an entertaining a show, it wasn't the most difficult or challenging show and it wasnt the cleanest on the field that summer.

Yet, with a scoring system that recgnizes that kind of entertainment, the corps playing the "difficult or challenging" shows would design more to the entertainment value as well. It would be additional to the complexity, no dumbing down. And guess what, under that system, the cleaner corps doing complex stuff will still win. The only difference is that the fans will win too. Audience sizes will increase faster than they are now and TV audiences will rise as well to the point where ESPN will pay DCI to put it on.

But, no. Let's just keep our elitist view of what drum corps should be and simply keep demanding it is right

[perc2100]

Yet, with a scoring system that recgnizes that kind of entertainment, the corps playing the "difficult or challenging" shows would design more to the entertainment value as well. It would be additional to the complexity, no dumbing down. And guess what, under that system, the cleaner corps doing complex stuff will still win. The only difference is that the fans will win too. Audience sizes will increase faster than they are now and TV audiences will rise as well to the point where ESPN will pay DCI to put it on.

But, no. Let's just keep our elitist view of what drum corps should be and simply keep demanding it is right

I don't know. I think Bridgemen proved you can be entertaining, and as long as you're clean you can compete. It's not like VK's hornline was Blue Devils caliber, and it's not like their drumline was Cavaliers caliber (I think Cav's won drums that year), and it's not like their drill was really clean. Honestly, that '92 show never did a ton for me. I thought it was worthy of their placement, but I never thought they were 'robbed,' or deserved to place any higher. I look at that show as a good 10th place show in a year that was above average as far as DCI Finalist corps/shows are concerned. It will always be a part of what I thought was a VERY solid year for drum corps.

I never thought VK should get the free pass on cleanliness just because they were "entertaining." They obviously had their performance issues. They were good, and like I said they won a place in Finals in a strong year. But they were scored about right, IMO.

--

doug

[MUSICandCHARACTER]

I don't know. I think Bridgemen proved you can be entertaining, and as long as you're clean you can compete. It's not like VK's hornline was Blue Devils caliber, and it's not like their drumline was Cavaliers caliber (I think Cav's won drums that year), and it's not like their drill was really clean. Honestly, that '92 show never did a ton for me. I thought it was worthy of their placement, but I never thought they were 'robbed,' or deserved to place any higher. I look at that show as a good 10th place show in a year that was above average as far as DCI Finalist corps/shows are concerned. It will always be a part of what I thought was a VERY solid year for drum corps.

I never thought VK should get the free pass on cleanliness just because they were "entertaining." They obviously had their performance issues. They were good, and like I said they won a place in Finals in a strong year. But they were scored about right, IMO.

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doug

Now I didn't say they should have won. I did say, that I have watched the DVD several times. The horns are good, very good. The percussion I cannot say much about. The feet were pretty clean. They used the two tone uniforms similar to the 2005 Cadets that Mr. Hopkins said took a lot of work to clean and that they actually made practice pants for. The turning from red to white is effective. Sure the drill is not like the 2002 Cavies. But for 1992 it is solid drill. You got the story line quite easily without narration. It was effective.

So as a see it -- it was very solid drill, very solid brass and very entertaining (that should count for some GE). Nobody said they should get a free pass. They did thumb their noses at the judges a bit. Did the judges laugh with them or take it personal?

BTW, I watch the 2002 Cavies show over and over also. It has been labeled one of the most precise shows ever done. I would agree. I don't think VK should have won -- I think from what I can see and hear (again, I have a trombone degree, I know little about percussion) it was better than some 5th/6th place shows in some years. Perhaps not 1992 -- I don't remember (I think I only attended one show that year).

Jim

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I don't know. I think Bridgemen proved you can be entertaining, and as long as you're clean you can compete. It's not like VK's hornline was Blue Devils caliber, and it's not like their drumline was Cavaliers caliber (I think Cav's won drums that year), and it's not like their drill was really clean. Honestly, that '92 show never did a ton for me. I thought it was worthy of their placement, but I never thought they were 'robbed,' or deserved to place any higher. I look at that show as a good 10th place show in a year that was above average as far as DCI Finalist corps/shows are concerned. It will always be a part of what I thought was a VERY solid year for drum corps.

I never thought VK should get the free pass on cleanliness just because they were "entertaining." They obviously had their performance issues. They were good, and like I said they won a place in Finals in a strong year. But they were scored about right, IMO.

--

doug

While this is true, many corps have proven that you don't NEED to be exciting. That is something I would like to see changed.

[arrangerx]

Now I didn't say they should have won. I did say, that I have watched the DVD several times. The horns are good, very good. The percussion I cannot say much about. The feet were pretty clean. They used the two tone uniforms similar to the 2005 Cadets that Mr. Hopkins said took a lot of work to clean and that they actually made practice pants for. The turning from red to white is effective. Sure the drill is not like the 2002 Cavies. But for 1992 it is solid drill. You got the story line quite easily without narration. It was effective.

So as a see it -- it was very solid drill, very solid brass and very entertaining (that should count for some GE). Nobody said they should get a free pass. They did thumb their noses at the judges a bit. Did the judges laugh with them or take it personal?

BTW, I watch the 2002 Cavies show over and over also. It has been labeled one of the most precise shows ever done. I would agree. I don't think VK should have won -- I think from what I can see and hear (again, I have a trombone degree, I know little about percussion) it was better than some 5th/6th place shows in some years. Perhaps not 1992 -- I don't remember (I think I only attended one show that year).

Jim

Jim,

You've still yet to say who '92 VK should have been ahead of.

If your argument is whether or not "entertaining" can be successful. . . look no further than Phantom Regiment or Madison Scouts this year.

"Funny" isn't the only kind of "entertainment".

VK was never really fall-down laughing "funny". They were quirky, and caught you off-guard at times. They flaunted an 80's West Coast attitude that was "fun". . . but not funny.

Bridgemen finished as high as 3rd place with an East Coast "quirkiness". . . but were also not fall-down laughing "funny". They made you smile, or scream (Bette Midler enticing the soprano player in 1980 is still priceless), but not laugh. But, unlike VK, Bridgemen could play with the best at their peak. Winning drums 3 years in a row is no small feat (the 3rd time they did it, the corps was in 8th place!).

I had a very influential person in my life, a DCI Hall of Famer, once say "You've got to be good to be funny, and they ain't funny". Nevermind the specifics. . . the statement is true.

VK was very good in 1992. . . but they were the 10th best corps that year overall.

Impulse. . . well. . . sorry. . . nice efforts. . . but really just a pale immitation of what Bobby Hoffman was able to do. No offense intended. . . who could live up to that genious level that Bobby breathed daily?

Jersey Surf has fun programming. . . and are conceptually ahead of Impulse, Chops Inc., etc. in understanding flow and pace of an audience-pleasing, quirky show. But, they too have performance issues based on the amount of time they can practice, the age of the group, etc.

The Bridgemen had the gift. . . of taking music that wasn't funny (is "In The Stone" really funny??) and superimposing gags over the top of it. Only at the end (1984) did they go with the "kill the judge" routine, and that show just wasn't performed very well -- in addition to other issues internally that had lead them elsewhere.

VK's vision was to involve the music more completely into the concept by picking music from sources associated with humor (David Lee Roth videos. . . cartoons. . . ), and to start to tell stories that ran the length and breadth of the show. But they never marched or colorguarded or played their brass instruments at a top 5 level (pick a year since 1984). They DID drum for a couple of years.

I always go back to "You have to be good to be funny". VK ripped the stadium apart that night in 1992. But they didn't do it consistently all summer. Watch the entire Finals from 1992 when you can. . . it's a riot. . . the whole night just kept getting better and better.

best,

Chuck Naffier

[Ryan H. Turner]

I want to debate what Chuck said and complain about it and moan....

but I can't. He's right. I can't argue with right.

[Leland]

Do you think there was any bias because they thumbed their noses at the judges and did a "fun" show instead of a serious show?

Nah -- they were doing the same in '87 when they tied Star at Finals for 6th. Only difference was they marched & played cleaner that year.

'92 VK was a really good show, but it wouldn't have placed any better without really stinkin' good execution.

[DerrickSCV87]

Do you think there was any bias because they thumbed their noses at the judges and did a "fun" show instead of a serious show?

Nah -- they were doing the same in '87 when they tied Star at Finals for 6th. Only difference was they marched & played cleaner that year.

'92 VK was a really good show, but it wouldn't have placed any better without really stinkin' good execution.

This is right on. There was no "nose thumbing" at all from that corps. The show was designed to be "entertaining" AND competitive. The judges loved the coprs and judged them fairly all year long (evevn having the beat the Cadets in field vis at a show!)

The VK was never known for thier execution and that is the only reason they placed where they did.

Out.

D

[brentwood]

I have a friend that I have known for many years. A while back the topic of Drum Corps came up. She said, "I went to a drum corps show one time, back in 1985." Long story short, she remembered only one corps, Velvet Knights. She remembered lots of things about the show actually. The name of the corps, a shark, a beach ball, red sneakers, and fun.

I just happened to be marching Velvet Knights that year, pretty cool that she saw me perform and now we are best friends. But I digress.

My point (there is one here, I promise) is that discussion of placements, execution, etc. is almost moot when discussing VK. The Velvet Knights were cool for over a decade, but highly competitive for only a few years. Which is more valuable? To me, and probably most other VK vets it's just that we had a great time, gave a lot a people some entertainment, and worked real hard at being as good as we could be, every year.

Why did VK place 10th in 92? I don't know. However, I was on VK staff in 87, argueably one of the best few years in VK history, and I can say that even with the high placements of 87-88 we spent more time figuring out how to make em laugh than anything else.

I hope this offers some insight into the world of the Velvet Knights. I'm sure this posting is highly influenced by the time I just spent reading the breaking news about VKYAO, good luck to them btw. Sounds like a good idea, long overdue.

Brent