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Why do people think G = "Bugles"????


Guest GeorgeD

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Surely there has to be a way to get a compromise between a G hornline and a Bb hornline. Pitch the instruments in Bb/F, but constuct them more like the "bugles." I realize that it is impossible to get the SAME sound, simply because of the acoustics; but is it possible to get a SIMILAR sound? I would like to think it's possible to make a Bb trumpet sound more like a bugle than a trumpet... there has to be some way. I love the distinct "pipe organ" sound of the G hornlines, but I understand the benefits of playing in multi-key. There has to be a happy medium somewhere...

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  • 2 months later...

Being a drumme, this has been an interesting thread. Tome the g horn sounds better, louder and grittier. But i understand and except the switch. But i do think you get more bang for the buck with the bugle.

I think the reason the ghorns are bugles is cultural. A lot of folks played on one or two valve horns and were quite proud to be mastering a bugle rather than a hs band trumpet.

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I honestly wish they would've kept it as two valves and key of G because to me that's what made it drum corps and with 2 valves lots of options yet made it unique and tested arrangers etc.

Also it isn't always about having the best tool which everyone claims Bb does. The G lines had to overcome and there were some that did and some that didn't.

I do agree that now days drum corps and bands are very close but then again don't most performers come from bands? I guess corps are now the professional version.

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  • 3 months later...

I've learned something from instructors of current lines over the past few weekends.

For the Tubas/Contras

It's a Tuba section when they sound alright, Contra section when they sound good.

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I've learned something from instructors of current lines over the past few weekends.

For the Tubas/Contras

It's a Tuba section when they sound alright, Contra section when they sound good.

One of our vis instructors last season in my corp called us tubas when he was upset with us/we did something wrong, and contras when we did something right/he was happy with us.

As for the matter at hand in the thread, it seems to largely a matter of tradition to say that G horns are bugles, and without G, it's not drum and bugle corps.

When I first learned what a drum and bugle corps even was, my understanding was that "Bugle" just referred to the winds all being forward-firing brass instruments. At the time, the only thing I knew was called a bugle was the valveless signalling instrument previously mentioned in the thread. When threads happen upon comparisons like this, I often like to chime in my rookie voice (being relatively new to the activity and so far having marched only one season) and say this: Bb lines, and the drum corps of today, are the drum corps I fell in love with. I haven't heard much in the way of a G line live before, so I lack the personal experience to make a comparison. From my perspective, I sometimes find myself getting a little irked about remarks of G somehow being the superior option or being the "real" drum corps. For those who have the experience to know the tradition, to have experienced it, it's understandable they'd prefer what they know to something newer that isn't an established tradition yet. Like I said, G horns aren't a tradition I experienced, and Bb is thus what I know. However, that being said, I'm not opposed to G horns. If things shifted back to that, I'd also be okay with it. If my corps decided to use G horns, I wouldn't object, I like learning new instruments.

Overall, from what I've seen, it comes down to a matter of perspective and comparative experiences in cases like this.

I'll be getting off your lawn, now.

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I guess a LOT has to do with hearing them referred to as 'trumpets' and 'tubas'. It's like fingers on a blackboard. Corps used to be very distinct and very adamant about that distinction.

Despite what others may think, I still get riled when someone calls them bands. It's not a band, it's a drum and bugle corps. And yes, I can tell the difference between a G horn line vs. a Bb line. But that's just me.

Ray

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FWIW, some of us took pride that we were playing tunes that most marching bands wouldn't. And we played them on more "primitive" instruments.

By tunes, I'm talking Don Ellis's "Chain Reaction" in 13/8 (123, 123, 12, 12, 123)

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OK I'm a drummer but played a Bb valveless bugle as a young kid and trumpet in HS for 9 months(broken arm) I can only relate to what my horn buddies have said that the G horns have a bigger bore making it more "powerful" as opposed to the trumpet which many have told me should stay in the band room!!!! Hey Im a drummer!! .I always wondered though WHY do all the "other " brass instruments in the band ie: French Horns Baritones Tubas etc point upward??

Many of us oldtimers will recall one of the most famous Corps of all who played Bb-F horns in 10 part harmony!! SCOUT HOUSE! They even jhad a specially made Eb horn to augment the brass line.Their Alumni are now still playing 3 valve Bb horns and the crowd loves them where ever they go!

Oh and by the way US MARINE DBC used Bb valve horns as well back in the day when playing with the USM Band then switched to the G-D or later G-F-F# horns when doing their show.The current Corps still plays on 2 valve horns.

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  • 7 months later...

Maybe you missed my point - "G" doesn't really define what makes something a bugle at all - not from a historic perspective - the original real valveless bugles weren't even G

An easy way to think of it is like this... A Trumpet is not a Cornet, a Bugle is not a Trumpet or Cornet. There all distinctively different instruments even though they look similar. Just like a Fife is not a Flute, etc... So, there is some questions about whether a Drum and Bugle Corps is really a Bugle carrying Corps. The Tubas, Mellophones, Baritones and Euphoniums are actually not classified as Bugles because there not Bugles. There Tubas, Mellophones etc... So the question really boils down to the high horns. And Trumpets are not Bugles.

Valves or rotors or slides are just a means of adding chromatic ability to the instrument. They do not define the instrument.

Also the "key" of the instrument has nothing to do with whether it's a Trumpet, Bugle, Cornet etc... The basic distinction lies within the tubing itself (how it's constructed). The more "conical" the tubing (less taper in the lead-pipe and bell) the more "bright" the sound. Therefor a Trumpet will be brighter sounding than a Cornet, and a Cornet will be darker than a Bugle. I's all in the construction of the instrument that determines the type.

As for the whole key of "G" thing... It's pure physics. Darker, lower pitches carry farther (louder) therefor the key of "G" (the lowest pitched) has the potential of producing a louder sound that carries farther. Many examples in nature exist from the Blue whale who's low frequency grunts can be herd a half world away to Howler Monkeys who's low pitched "howls" can be herd for miles. Lower pitches simply carry farther.

In the (military) Bugle world, the Bb Bugles were used primarily for ceremonial uses wheres the G Bugles were mainly relegated for battlefield use. Why? Because as a signaling device (and it's assumed you need the message of charge, retreat etc... to he herd) you want your message to be herd over the noise of the battlefield. Of course, if a G Bugle was not available, they would have obviously used whatever they had, but the overwhelming preference for battlefield signaling, was in "G".

Hope this helps...

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Modern G horns typically are built similarly to their Bb counterparts, except most notably the Soprano. If you put a piston/rotor contrabass next to a concert tuba, you will immediately notice the differences in bore shape and size. My C tuba and my piston/rotor contra are the same height (when stood on the bell) and have a similar diameter bell. The contra has significantly more cylindrical tubing, which allows for greater projection. This construction style is evident even through the two valve era across all voices. So yes, it would be incorrect to call a soprano bugle a trumpet or a contrabass a tuba. Wikipedia has a fantastic name for G horns used in drum corps: Competition Bugles. This shows that not only are they NOT the valveless military bugles of the early 20th century, they are also NOT the multi key horns used by the majority of the activity today. I call Bb "sopranos" trumpets, and Bb "contrabasses" tubas. I've been corrected before by someone saying his horn was a contra, and I asked if it was Bb or G. He said Bb, so I said, "It's a tuba. Not a bugle."

To me, a group playing on multi-key brass is a marching brass band. A brass band has cornets in Eb, trumpets or cornets in Bb, flugelhorns in Bb, horns in F or Eb, baritones, euphoniums in Bb, and tubas in Eb and/or Bb. Todays DCI corps have trumpets in Bb, flugelhorns in Bb (Crossmen this season), horns in F, baris and euphs in Bb, and tubas in Bb. Aside from missing the Eb cornet, instrumentation is nearly the same.

I think there are plenty of great sounding hornlines that use Bb. But there is a certain presence that is missing. The overtone series of G bugles, and their previous styles of construction, allowed for very deep dark chords in the low brass with very penetrating high brass. Almost organ-like. Yes, you can get the same organ-like quality out of a Bb line, but the overtones just aren't there. To me, the most noticeable voice is the baritone. A G baritone has a much warmer sound in an ensemble than Bb. But once you crank up the volume, they get a trombone like quality.

This is the key right here. Differences in manufacturers and evolution of construction aside, bugles are conically-bored, while trumpets (and other true concert instruments) are cylindrical. This means that when you reach the sound production area, the cylindrical instruments have a longer length of "narrow" piping before the bell flares to allow the sound to escape. Conical instruments, on the other hand, tend to have an emphasis on a more gradual increase in bore size, producing a different characteristic sound when the instrument is played properly. A similar difference exists between a trumpet and a cornet - the cornet, when played properly, has a darker and more mellow sound, while a trumpet is designed to ring and pierce orchestra sound veils. Indeed, due to these characteristic sound differences you'll be able to find some earlier concert band arrangements that call for both a trumpet and a cornet part in the same group.

Of course a lot of this has changed over time. When I started marching junior corps (mid 90s), you couldn't really tell much difference between a trumpet in Bb and a soprano pitched in G. I believe the conical bore was still there, but it was vastly under-pronounced. When I marched with the Glassmen in 97, we used a french horn line instead of a mellophone line, as those instruments shared the same distinction (I believe the marching french horns we used were cylindrical, while the standard mellophone is conical) and the french horn was determined to push through the ensemble and produce a better brass choir sound.

Regarding the lower brass, in my experience there is a unique difference in terminology. Nearly every marching baritone I've seen/played on (be that Bb or G) was conically-bored, with a very noticeable widening taper after leaving the valves. Technically, in that respect, they're hybrid euphoniums - the euphonium differs from the baritone in its conical bore, producing a more resonant sound across the range of the instrument. Actual concert baritones are drastically different in construction from their marching counterparts. Part of that is the compactness and bell-front orientation of the horns, but there is also a difference in the tubing diameter. Compare the tubing diameters of a Besson Prestige concert Bb baritone (http://www.wwbw.com/Besson-BE2056-Prestige-Series-Bb-Baritone-Horn-620230-i1447440.wwbw) to this Blessing Bb Marching Baritone (http://www.wwbw.com/Blessing-BM-301-Marching-Bb-Baritone-H71523-i1809932.wwbw) - you can easily see the difference between the cylindrical bore of the concert horn and the conical bore of the marching instrument.

I won't speak to the physics of Bb and G Harmonics, but the poster I quoted mentioned the change in the overtone series that results from changing horn keys.

I apologize if any of this is flat misinformation. Most of my knowledge comes from playing far too many horns across far too many types of ensembles. Please correct me where I am wrong. My personal opinion is that a G line, played by excellent players with a focus on tuning and ensemble sound, can provide a much more visceral experience to the listener at a larger distance than a Bb/F line with the same parameters. This is mostly due to my own anecdotal data, particularly having marched in and attended finals both before and after the switch. Cavaliers '95 felt like they were hitting me square in the chest with their sound during Mars, even from the top row of the NFL stadium we were in. Cadets '08 was really the only corps to replicate that feeling for me, and I think a lot of that was driven by the chip they had on their shoulder over people's criticisms of their narration choices. Of course I was about 60 yards closer to the field at that particular show (Racine, WI), so your mileage may vary.

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