Why do people think G = "Bugles"????

[bluestarsmello]

I've noticed on this thread that most people are only taking in consideration the whole Bb Trumpet/G "Bugle" thing. Couple comments. The original version of the trumpet was a bugle w/o valves, so performers would carry a bag of "crooks" that they would use to lengthen the tubing and put the trumpet in whatever key they needed. Supposed they were playing Beethoven's "Eroica" Symphony, which is in Eb Major. They would then put in the appropriate crook to make the trumpet in the key of Eb (also used for c minor). Beethoven had already taken care to only write notes for the trumpets (and horns, for that matter) that were part of the overtone series. No valves, so only partials were available for the performer's use. So, in essence, trumpets have been available in whatever key you would like them to be in for hundreds of years. It was only in later years when valves were added that composers began to write notes outside the overtone series, and typically for either Bb or C Trumpet (which is typically used in symphonies today). Interesting to note-there are also bass trumpets (pitched in Bb, I think) which play in the same register as baritones. They're pretty funny looking (kinda like a baritone but more stretched out like a trumpet) and they have a much brighter tone. I think today's valved Eb trumpets are called soprano trumpets, piccolo trumpets are in Bb (but sounding an octave high), and I have no idea what key tenor or alto trumpets are in. Could be wrong about some things stated in the last sentence. Trumpets are called trumpets, no matter what the key, because of the shape, timbre, etc. (qualities that ar unique to the family of trumpets). So I don't think that the G Soprano could be called a G Trumpet by any means. It's not even a bugle, really, because I'm pretty sure that in the academic music world (taking no note of whatever dictionaries may pretend to know of the subject), bugles are horns without valves, period.

Also, what about mellophones being called bugles? Is a mellophone technically a marching french horn that is keyed in G? I think not, since there are worlds of difference between the mellos and marching french horns, aside from the key (they are only a major second apart). Honestly, I think sopranos, mellophones, baritones (maybe not, don't know enough about them), and contras are instruments that are in a family all their own, although readily compared with and similar to many instruments outside the family. They evolved to a different species because of the need to project while outside, spread all over a field (other reasons, too, having to do with arranging and playability I think). That's pretty unique circumstances. I don't know what to call them. Maybe somebody should come up with an official classification of drum corps horns!

*whew* I'm done.

[Orpheus]

Of course, one thing people seem never to mention on threads like this is that while the G soprano and Bb trumpet are substantially different in construction ... the mellos, baris, euphs, and contras/tubas are practically the same instruments no matter whether they're in G or in Bb/F. The "bugles" and the "marching horns" differ by only a few inches of tubing here or there. I played both a Dynasty baritone in G and Dynasty baritone in Bb (in college band). The only difference was the length of the lead pipe. Is that really enough to make them project less than the G horns? I remember noticing no difference in that regard.

The only argument I've heard that makes much sense to me is the one about the mellophones -- that while the Bb horns are higher in pitch than their G cousins, the F mello is lower in pitch ... tending to make their sound get a little lost in the ensemble. I certainly don't think that the multi-key lines are any less "impactful." <ahem> Is that even a word? LOL

At any rate, this is a great topic. Keep it going.

[contrasteve2001]

2.  The quality of sound from DCI hornlines has improved by LIGHT YEARS since 2000.  If you disagree then your mind was probably already made up that you wouldn't accept the new horns so you have blocked your brain from even appreciating it.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I accept B-flat horns completely, however I don't see how you can say that the quality of sound has improved. I prefer G horns because of the tone they produce. Although it does matter how you play the horn, B-flat horns tend to have a brighter, brassier qulaity, whereas the G horns tend to be more mellow sounding. That's a personal preference in what you like to hear. But are you implying that hornlines have more quality because they are using B-flat horns? I should say not. If they have more quality, it's because they have decided to work at sounding better, not because they got a new horn slapped in front of them.

Sorry Glen I have to disagree, the G horns provide a "brighter ,crisper " tone ,where as the Bb

has a mellower warmer tone , the G horn sound travels farther and has been a staple in drum corps for so long that I guess that is why it is labled as traditional , also that fact of playing a completely different instrument than what you play in your band and orchestra adds to the mystique of the experience,

[Screeaamer]

There isn't any use trying to argue the point.

I like Brass... all brass... even if they allowed Trombones into Corps I wouldn't mind. I would mind if Woodwinds were allowed.

I think the name thing is a tradition more then anything else... Because as a Soprano you name that group as the Highest section in a Brass Choir.

All Drum Corps really did was raise the key by a Minor 3rd... nothing more... I know some lines are using F mello's and such but still...

I heard the arguement about the Timbre's being differnet so mixing a Bb line with G didn't work so hot.

I still feel as my teachers have taught me:

"Sometimes it's the Plumber... not the Plumbing!"

I really enjoy playing a G Kanstul Powerbore Sop... but if marched Bb I would gladly bring out my Bach 42 XLbore, Reverse tuning slide heavey weight bell custome Bb Trumpet!

Just give me a horn and tell me where to stand!

Now if Dyansty invents a "Wedge Bugle" I'll laugh my ### off!!!!!!!!

As I think I have made the Dynasty people unhappy many times, "I refuse to play on this crappy dynasty anymore! Wait... Crappy Dynasty... isn't that a redundancy?" lol Sorry Deg people...

Anyway... BRING IT ON!!!! Where's my horn? *looking franticlly*

Cullen

Edited November 22, 2002 by Screeaamer

[JeromeyBush]

There have been valved trombones in drum corps.Madison,of all corps used them.They sounded like ###,but they did use them (1979).

As for the person who said G horns sound "mellower" than Bb.I completely disagree.G horns(espescially DEG G horns) are so bright ,you need sunglasses to hear them.If you dont believe me,take a quality instrument,in both keys ,and just play a note on each,at above a forte.High c is good.Your teeth will rattle on the g horn,and your ears will produce an abundance of ear wax,whereas that will not happen as much on a Bb.

[bfhdznr]

G = better because drumcorps fans generally have preconcived notions they refuse to let go and be introduced to something new.

I noticed thi when i went to see blast II with some corps freinds. I was the only person to have ever played a woodwind and the only one who could get over the woodwind in blastII. woodwinds = bad, but harmonica citar and piano are acceptable alternative instrumentation. they just refused to get over theri preconcived notions of what corps is and blast arising from star, they insited it should be corps, could not accept that it wasnt.

Just get over all your hangups on what corps is supposed to be and have an open mind.

Its not that G or Bb is superior but just gettin over your unwavering definition of what corps is supposed to be. cavie and BD and SCV are still corps and they play Bb!

Don't Tradition and define Drum corps into extinction.

[Puppet]

George:

You offer a fascinating argument that deserves to be explored further. Might you or anyone else be able to come up with the facts of what other keys drum corps "bugles" used to be in, when we adopted "G" as our "home key," and (this one fascinates me the most) if anyone back "then" complained that moving to the key of "G" turned the instruments into something "less" than "bugles." My heavens, that would be fun thing to throw out in the "Fanfare" column.

I've got to check this out in Steve Vickers' wonderful new "History of Drum Corps" book. (Someone just gave me one as a gift, and I can only say "wow." If you folks don't have one yet, treat yourself for Christmas. It's quite comprehensive and a real treat. Check out the Drum Corps World website for ordering information.)

Anyone up to the task? (Of course, you would be credited until the cows come home.)

And incidentelly, this is my first new post with my new custom avatar, courtesy of the aforementioned George. (Now don't all go running to him. I was a particularly desparate and helpless/hopeless case.)

Gee, Michael - and I know it's been years since you wrote this post - I wish I could answer coherently and even take you up on the challenge. If we had a forum such as this back when whatever people were playing before I picked up my first French Horn in G (not discounting the one I played in Orchestra (F/Eb) there would be a far more interesting conversation. I'm afraid however, most of those guys from days then are gone. Great ad for Steve's book, BTW.

As to sound improvement since the turn of the decade...probably has a lot to do with the quality of the players, don't you think? There are more polished and older players (ages 18+ with 5 or more years on their instruments these days versus 12+ with about 4 to 6 months experience BITD) as

I'm also thinking that it's a little easier to sound better when you have 60-80 horns who don't have to push as hard for volume.

As you know, I am "died-in-the-wool-old-school-cadet-style-we-need-color-presentation-and-for-God's-sake-young-people-back-in-the-activity" kinda guy.

Never gonna happen.

So let's just get Star Of Indiana back to show every other Drum Corps how to put a whole show on the field again. Which would make Phantom step up and even TRY a show like (no matter how much an epic fail it was) the Red Violin.

Because no matter what, the activity will not have people filling up the back stands again no matter what brass instruments are played unless some one corps takes it to another level.

(Oh yeah - singing and synths) time to go!

Just saying as always,

Puppet

[Dash Fieldpaint]

I look at it like this: If my 3 valve Dynasty G baritone and my Kanstul G euphonium are called bugles, then my 3 valve Yamaha Bb marching baritone has every right to be called a bugle as well.

As far as the sound: Modern drum corps are usually more in tune than the pre-2000 corps. The volume is probably about the same. I personally think the multikey lines sound better than pre-2000 hornlines.

What I miss is FEELING a hornline. I have yet to feel a multikey line hit me like a G line did back in the 90s. I feel bad for the people who never felt that, and never will.

and wow.. I just realized this thread is 9 years old...

Edited June 18, 2011 by Dash Fieldpaint

[Puppet]

Perhaps someone could comment on this, but here is my ASSUMPTION of the differences. I haven't checked my data here, so please comment.

The bugle, even in its 3 valve state, is designed differently than any other valved instrument (sop to keyed trumpets). It's bore size and taper in the bell make it more suited for PROJECTION than other trumpets. It's intonation difficulties are inhearent to the design. In my experience, this is not the case with C, Bb, Eb trumpets. Projection was very noticable to me at DI quarters. I sat almost at pressbox level on the 45 and projection hit a wall at PR. Cavs quality of sound and intonation was amazing, thusly it carried, but not everyone has the staff or talent of that particular hornline. To me, this was the advantage for smaller corps using G's, and why I think large hornlines who stay have a more impactful sound. Perhaps this impactful sound is what needs to be left behind or evolved from, but its what got me into the activity.

Anyway, I don't really have any firm facts about this so chim in.

I have said something about this on other threads but perhaps not as succinctly. The way Bb horns are built ( I think) which use more tubing and smaller bores need many more constituents to make an equal sound of a line who uses G instruments. I might add this whole thing of pointing the horns up is just a silly affectation that does not result in louder (Hey! Designer guys and gals ... a horn bell is created to throw out sound in an almost perfect 200 degree arc - point it up and much sound bounces off the stupid roof of the Lucas indoor dumb hall which makes for poor sound need I go on about that, either!) And has anyone mentioned that Drum Corps is an outdoor activity? Someone might say something about the ambient reflection of playing to the back stands and how some really smart horn arrangers used that to great advantage.

Puppet

[Navillus WP]

In some ways, the reaction to the end of the G-bugle era of Drum Corps is actually an "opinion in search of a justification."

That is, "drum corps traditionalists" (of which I am one) mourn the day when bugles became three-valved marching band instruments, because it signaled that Marching Bands had morphed into what we considered Drum Corps.

I don't believe tonality or quality of sound was the most-broadly-felt concern. Heck, Preston Scout House played Bb valve/rotary horns in the 60's and 70's, with no gripes in the Lower 48.

We "Drum Corps Traditionalists" were (and remain) proud that we were very distinctive from the marching bands - in fact, many of us joined DC to get away from marching band music, dancers, forming choreographed shapes, shuffle-stepping and running, costumed figures, theatrical field shows....

We miss the Back-in-The Day "straight" drum corps: marching from off-the-line to off-the-field. Marching all drums, bugles and equipment onto the field, then carrying it off into the end zone. Everyone and everything fit into three school buses and a old mail truck. People wore uniforms, not costumes. Local kids, loyal to the organization through thick and thin. Family traditions of siblings following each other up thru the ranks of the local unit.

In sum, the G-bugle vs. Bb-bugle issue is - for some of us - a symptom of a larger opinion about the nature of the drum corps changes.