DCA PERC RULES REVIEW

[MikeD]

Not to mention that in todays visual age, the judge doesnt have the benefit of being able to stand there and count ticks. You gotta be runnin with the battery if your talkin about evaluating the leg line out on the field. even in a "park and play" situation, any intelligent listener should know that alot of things sound dirty if your way out of position. For example, if 9 snares, 4 quads, and 5 bass drums are playing a unison passage from a long diagonal, and your positioned in front of the snareline, its not gonna sound good. If you dont know that, you shoudl stop judging. Also, if your a judge who only evaluates snarelines (like so many out there do) you should put the pencil down and stop judging.

Not to mention the whole other half of the score which is the front ensemble. They dont just play unison passages, so unless you know the written book your not gonna know where the tics are.

Ticks sort-of worked in the day when percussion consisted of snares, tenors, basses, and cymbals...they rode up and down the 50 the entire show in one blob.

Adding in timpani and more so marching mallets made the tick system obsolete.

Today's visual designs...with percussionists spread all over the place constantly on the go at incredible speeds...plus the pit....makes any use of something like the tick system impossible.

Not to mention that it is a woefully inadequate vehicle for the measurement what makes up a complete performance.

Battery and fronts are so intertwined these days that this attempted segregation makes no sense to me....not to mention the point discrepancy between the two captions in the presentation.

Ticks were not objective...they were totally subjective...was the event a tick or not? If it was, how many ticks should be assessed in a group error situation?

[drumnman2004]

Ticks sort-of worked in the day when percussion consisted of snares, tenors, basses, and cymbals...they rode up and down the 50 the entire show in one blob.

Adding in timpani and more so marching mallets made the tick system obsolete.

Today's visual designs...with percussionists spread all over the place constantly on the go at incredible speeds...plus the pit....makes any use of something like the tick system impossible.

Not to mention that it is a woefully inadequate vehicle for the measurement what makes up a complete performance.

Battery and fronts are so intertwined these days that this attempted segregation makes no sense to me....not to mention the point discrepancy between the two captions in the presentation.

Ticks were not objective...they were totally subjective...was the event a tick or not? If it was, how many ticks should be assessed in a group error situation?

Actually, my thoughts on the bottom of page 3 simply give the judge a 'counter/clicker' to use in one hand while commenting (as he/she always does) on the tape recorder and keeping the same point allotments.

I don't agree that adding timpani and keyboards disolved the 'tic' system ! The performers can still NOT play together ie: accessories to keyboard, keyboard to keyboard, timp to keyboard, front ensemble to batterie, etc., while getting high musicallity scores !

In DCA (especially) the drills aren't that demanding ! The top 3 I believe have 100+ set drills with 'medium difficult' movement at best. Remember, DCA has alot less time to clean in the summer having only weekends while the Juniors are on the road for 2 to 3 weeks at a time and rehearse 8 hours a day...with a performance 4 out of 7 days of the week !

Even with the current system, the judge has to sample ie: snare segment, tenor segment, bass segment, cymbals, entire batterie, pit to batterie, keyboards, accessories to keyboards, timp to keyboards, etc...or at least he/she should be ! When the judge just stands back and listens to the entire ensemble all the time and only focuses on the ensemble...you'll have your victory ! Just move the sheet upstairs and add it to music ! Hey, you won't even need a percussionist to judge your caption ! Won't that be KEEN !!!

[MikeD]

Actually, my thoughts on the bottom of page 3 simply give the judge a 'counter/clicker' to use in one hand while commenting (as he/she always does) on the tape recorder and keeping the same point allotments.

I don't agree that adding timpani and keyboards disolved the 'tic' system ! The performers can still NOT play together ie: accessories to keyboard, keyboard to keyboard, timp to keyboard, front ensemble to batterie, etc., while getting high musicallity scores !

Yup...we disagree...the sheets I started judging with were broken down by section...and instuments like timps and mallets were just part of the big 'other' category. Ading in all of the other stuff in today's pit and it's just impossible to be using tics..nor does it provide an accurate evaluation of the musical performance.

I think the drum guys were the last to give up on the tics....I for one am glad they did finally....took way too long IMO.

In DCA (especially) the drills aren't that demanding ! The top 3 I believe have 100+ set drills with 'medium difficult' movement at best. Remember, DCA has alot less time to clean in the summer having only weekends while the Juniors are on the road for 2 to 3 weeks at a time and rehearse 8 hours a day...with a performance 4 out of 7 days of the week !

As compared to the older tic era...they are waaay more 'on the go' and spread out over large distances.

[Jeff Ream]

I have taken the time to read and digest all of the discourse of this thread. What seems simple to me is that both / all parties are arguing for the same thing: quality and consistency of adjudication. The point that most are missing is that the variable doesn't lie within the system *the judging system is actually a good blend of technique, musicality, demand considerations (as well as simultaneous responsibility - which for the older guys simply means the demand of the visual as it relates to the performers ability to play, listen, etc... while moving and while doing more than just drumming) AND execution. Mark Thurston (the reason why percussion in both WGI and DCA is more about playing the instrument together as an ensemble (not just drumming - front ensemble, too in the name of music afterall). The system and sheets (believe it or not) are right on. The variable my friends is the subjectivity of the individual adjudicators.

I have been involved most recently in DCA from 2002 as a member of the Brigs Championship line (snare). I know full well, as a member of that group wherein I had the pleasure (or displeasure) to distinguish many moments when the snare line won the performance....tenors where somewhat inconsistant at time and bass drum took a while to get there - now bear in mind, each section played really well, just not as always together. Whenever I go back and listen to 2002 Brigs, I always remember the good time, but I also hear the mistakes - lots of them. But the snare line was #### clean at finals, and that is all that mattered. I have been on the staff at Brigs since 2003 (most recently as captionhead this past season). I am well versed with critique and the sheets, what questions to ask the judges, when to raise a question in disagreement - shoot, even a moment or two when I was out right angered by a judges seeming lack of ability to effectibvely distinguish quality from fluff. But each time I went back and listen to tapes, at most junctures when an error occurred I heard an appropriate comment or something close. Sometimes you hear things on a tape that a judge was not specifically paying attention to that may be terrible and go unnoticed - likewise that may be marvelous and may go unrewarded because the judge just wasn't watching for that section or whatever.

The caliber of judges in DCA needs to improve. It has come a long way since 2002, but it still needs to be a community of percussionists (not just drummers - which excludes myself since I am just a drummer) who have a vocabulary relevenat to the times, an ear open to intonation, articulation, pitch, accuracy, and eye able to distinguish what LOOKS BAD from WHAT SOUNDS BAD, and a willingness to put down a number that might #### some people off. Thurston is great when he judges because he lays it out - either it was good or it sucked. If it sucked too much, you won't get anymore than "it wasn't very good" becasue at that point, is there a point is talking about musicality and technique, etc... if its just a heaping pile of poo? Conversely, if the perform was terrific, I have heard Mark (and other judges - of which Tom Rarick, Neil Sylvia among others as well) articulate accurately and in detail the highlights and low point of the performance. No performance is perfect. The tick system starts with perfection - That premise itself is inherently flawed and means as ealry as the first sound, a group must have a tick somewhere...because no one is perfect. If we send our judges in search of errors, when will they be able to be on the lookout to reward achievement. ACHIEVEMENT IS THE SYSTEM FOLKS. Teach your lines to play well, to play rhythms with quality and accuracy together, not just "clean" . . . "Clean" is not an achievement, accurate is. Rhythm accuracy is a wonderful term which, in DCA, there is far too little of. Teachers need to teach better. Adjudicators are on the right track...but they need to figure out NUMBERS. Point spreads are a mess in DCA and often too exaggerated.

Accountability for adjudicators on their point spreads. AND they must write commentary on the sheets, if they don't, their score shouldn't count.

Teachers, stop trying to "compete" with each other and compete with yourself to produce a higher quality group year after yaer, to educate the members on how to achieve accurately, and advise them and your staffs that reward will come when achievement is realized, not before, and not undue. The cleanest line will always win... but clean isn't reserved for the batterie. The pit is an equal (if not more important) entity to the entire package. The batterie is just the fun stuff, and we focus too much sometimes on that which is enjoyable, often choosing to focus on IT instead of our short comings...which could use a fix more often than not.

You want my ideas for a DCA percussion revolution? Keep the concepts, they work. Field batterie judge, Field front ensemble judge, box perc. ensemble / effect judge. That way, the three entities of the activity are covered equally and constantly are critiqued, scores are averaged, and the highest overal average score is the winner that night. That would work best for me. The tick system was flawed, so it was canned. 15" slingeland snares drums were all the rage once, too... they have also been canned. Were they replaced arbitrarily? or where they swapped out for a new and improved model? For me its obvious: do away with a narrow minded archaic approach in favor of one that is multli faceted (like the activity has become) in order to more accurately determine the excellence of one group as it relates first to itself and then to the other groups. That seems to be what we done. If you can't be successful within the system where other groups are flourishing to their heights...figure it out.

Chris Perna

can i buy you beer?

[Jeff Ream]

Actually, my thoughts on the bottom of page 3 simply give the judge a 'counter/clicker' to use in one hand while commenting (as he/she always does) on the tape recorder and keeping the same point allotments.

I don't agree that adding timpani and keyboards disolved the 'tic' system ! The performers can still NOT play together ie: accessories to keyboard, keyboard to keyboard, timp to keyboard, front ensemble to batterie, etc., while getting high musicallity scores !

In DCA (especially) the drills aren't that demanding ! The top 3 I believe have 100+ set drills with 'medium difficult' movement at best. Remember, DCA has alot less time to clean in the summer having only weekends while the Juniors are on the road for 2 to 3 weeks at a time and rehearse 8 hours a day...with a performance 4 out of 7 days of the week !

Even with the current system, the judge has to sample ie: snare segment, tenor segment, bass segment, cymbals, entire batterie, pit to batterie, keyboards, accessories to keyboards, timp to keyboards, etc...or at least he/she should be ! When the judge just stands back and listens to the entire ensemble all the time and only focuses on the ensemble...you'll have your victory ! Just move the sheet upstairs and add it to music ! Hey, you won't even need a percussionist to judge your caption ! Won't that be KEEN !!!

the last time i saw a field guy stay on the sideline was 3/4 years ago when it rained at finals.

sure some may take a look from there at points, but i rarely see anyone park there

[drumnman2004]

the last time i saw a field guy stay on the sideline was 3/4 years ago when it rained at finals.

sure some may take a look from there at points, but i rarely see anyone park there

I was just making a point that since drills are so difficult and drumlines are spread all over the place...taking the judge off the field is the next step in our evolution.

We'll be ACHEIVING ourselves right 'off the field' and land on a 'music sheet' that's judged upstairs by non-percussionists.

[Storkysr]

I have taken the time to read and digest all of the discourse of this thread. What seems simple to me is that both / all parties are arguing for the same thing: quality and consistency of adjudication. The point that most are missing is that the variable doesn't lie within the system *the judging system is actually a good blend of technique, musicality, demand considerations (as well as simultaneous responsibility - which for the older guys simply means the demand of the visual as it relates to the performers ability to play, listen, etc... while moving and while doing more than just drumming) AND execution. Mark Thurston (the reason why percussion in both WGI and DCA is more about playing the instrument together as an ensemble (not just drumming - front ensemble, too in the name of music afterall). The system and sheets (believe it or not) are right on. The variable my friends is the subjectivity of the individual adjudicators.

The caliber of judges in DCA needs to improve. It has come a long way since 2002, but it still needs to be a community of percussionists (not just drummers - which excludes myself since I am just a drummer) who have a vocabulary relevenat to the times, an ear open to intonation, articulation, pitch, accuracy, and eye able to distinguish what LOOKS BAD from WHAT SOUNDS BAD, and a willingness to put down a number that might #### some people off. Thurston is great when he judges because he lays it out - either it was good or it sucked. If it sucked too much, you won't get anymore than "it wasn't very good" becasue at that point, is there a point is talking about musicality and technique, etc... if its just a heaping pile of poo? Conversely, if the perform was terrific, I have heard Mark (and other judges - of which Tom Rarick, Neil Sylvia among others as well) articulate accurately and in detail the highlights and low point of the performance. No performance is perfect. The tick system starts with perfection - That premise itself is inherently flawed and means as ealry as the first sound, a group must have a tick somewhere...because no one is perfect. If we send our judges in search of errors, when will they be able to be on the lookout to reward achievement. ACHIEVEMENT IS THE SYSTEM FOLKS. Teach your lines to play well, to play rhythms with quality and accuracy together, not just "clean" . . . "Clean" is not an achievement, accurate is. Rhythm accuracy is a wonderful term which, in DCA, there is far too little of. Teachers need to teach better. Adjudicators are on the right track...but they need to figure out NUMBERS. Point spreads are a mess in DCA and often too exaggerated.

Accountability for adjudicators on their point spreads. AND they must write commentary on the sheets, if they don't, their score shouldn't count.

Teachers, stop trying to "compete" with each other and compete with yourself to produce a higher quality group year after yaer, to educate the members on how to achieve accurately, and advise them and your staffs that reward will come when achievement is realized, not before, and not undue. The cleanest line will always win... but clean isn't reserved for the batterie. The pit is an equal (if not more important) entity to the entire package. The batterie is just the fun stuff, and we focus too much sometimes on that which is enjoyable, often choosing to focus on IT instead of our short comings...which could use a fix more often than not.

You want my ideas for a DCA percussion revolution? Keep the concepts, they work. Field batterie judge, Field front ensemble judge, box perc. ensemble / effect judge. That way, the three entities of the activity are covered equally and constantly are critiqued, scores are averaged, and the highest overal average score is the winner that night. That would work best for me. The tick system was flawed, so it was canned. 15" slingeland snares drums were all the rage once, too... they have also been canned. Were they replaced arbitrarily? or where they swapped out for a new and improved model? For me its obvious: do away with a narrow minded archaic approach in favor of one that is multli faceted (like the activity has become) in order to more accurately determine the excellence of one group as it relates first to itself and then to the other groups. That seems to be what we done. If you can't be successful within the system where other groups are flourishing to their heights...figure it out.

Chris Perna

A few points:

1. Agreed- quality, accountability and consistency of adjudication must improve.

2. Where on the current sheets do you find the "demand considerations" that you refer to?

3. Your suggestion of a Field batterie judge, Field front ensemble judge and a box perc. ensemble / effect judge is more similar to my proposition than what is currently used by DCA, but you will have the added cost of an additional judge-not popular.

4. Mean spirited sarcasm is always helpful LOL.

As you said, nothing is perfect. I will continue to research ways to improve the system, including education and communication of judges and instructors and clarification of the sheets and the rule book.

[Jeff Ream]

I was just making a point that since drills are so difficult and drumlines are spread all over the place...taking the judge off the field is the next step in our evolution.

We'll be ACHEIVING ourselves right 'off the field' and land on a 'music sheet' that's judged upstairs by non-percussionists.

i doubt it. even dci went back and added an upstairs guy for big shows, but night in and night out the have a guy on the field