LancerFi Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Mike I would ventured to say it was 27th Lancers who first started doing it. A friend of mine marched in the flag line from '78-'80. She taught me how they tossed in the fall of '78. The first year was 1977 if I remember correctly, but I'll need to go back to the video. We grounded our rifles and the flag line also tossed over the horns to us. We were still doing that little diddy (was very easy) in 1980 in the OTL however it became a 1 revolution toss rather just a straight one. I'll need to look back to see if they were also tossing thruout the show. In 1978 we did a file on the 50 where the sabers were in the middle and the flags tossed over which in 79 became the rifles in the middle as so many others did.... I'll need to think back or look back at 76.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancerlady Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 (edited) The first year was 1977 if I remember correctly, but I'll need to go back to the video. We grounded our rifles and the flag line also tossed over the horns to us. We were still doing that little diddy (was very easy) in 1980 in the OTL however it became a 1 revolution toss rather just a straight one. I'll need to look back to see if they were also tossing thruout the show.In 1978 we did a file on the 50 where the sabers were in the middle and the flags tossed over which in 79 became the rifles in the middle as so many others did.... I'll need to think back or look back at 76.... Didn't 27 invent the term "Trick Flag", at least that's what Patty B. told me that she and Peggy Twiggs did. What's the difference between that and a toss? (I'm just a horn player).. :P Edited December 1, 2006 by Lancerlady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancerFi Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 27th's flag line did a toss at the end of "Overture to Rocky" in 1977. The "trick flags" did indeed start in the early 70's with 27th. Not sure who came up with the term "trick flag", but it was probably "Ike" Ianessa. The camera work did do a good job of showing the 77 toss over the horn line after we grounded our rifles. Your memory is a good one! Jim, I just wanted to add that our 50 yard line toss began in 78 with the sabers under the flags rather than the rifles. And I do believe Ike, after seeing Peggy spinning her flag said you, you and you - hand picking who would be the 6 tricks....they wore lime green and they had all black on, he wanted to make sure you could see them even when standing next to the rifles in red.....I believe you can see that in the 72 video Malibu mentioned! The trick flag line..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancerFi Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 The pulleys were first used in 1975 to convert from single to double silks (identical silks).The two silks were always "exposed" at the top of the flag (watch the DCI videos carefully to see this). The pulley system brought the second silk from one end of the pole to the other, creating the "Double Silk". It's so funny to see the flags that were in front during concert in 75 & 76 going backfield pulling their string/pully to get the 2nd flag to the top. The sleeve worked so much better. I loved that even the sleeve work was executed. Leave it to Peggy to have the sleeve work be clean..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancerFi Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Head choppers and "leg" choppers - wow. I remember those. 27th's maces did a fake hop over the mace in 78. The illusion was that they did like a jump rope once over the mace, but they actually let go for a split second (again, see video). Almost definitely not the first guard to do this. I remember numerous winter guards (St. Anthony's Everett, among them) doing this. Jim, was that at the end of Can Can with sabers in 77? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A27Lancer Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Jim, was that at the end of Can Can with sabers in 77? Yup - you can see Marie F. Right-o on the toss over the sabres in 78. Everybody else had hand flags. I remember when they handed them out to the horn line, and Dig Me taught the moves. NONE of us were into holding the hand flags. I can only pick out Peggy (2nd from right) in the trick flag photo. Do you know who the others are?? Nance, there's a "Xmas is for Children" party at the Legion on Saturday, Dec. 2 at 7:30. I should be there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malibu Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I asked a friend who marched '78-80 with 27th Lancers if they tossed their flags in 1978. When I say "toss" I'm talking about rifle tosses done on flag, not the toss exchange like they did on the 50 yard line. This is what she had to say; Yes we had a toss that was supposed to be really high that we were not supposed to catch in one of the sections of Can Can. We tried so many things in 78, but because of the double flags (and that year there wasn't a sleeve), real tosses were out. The other factor that George and Twiggs were working on was that the flag poles in 78 (that you bought) were very light and would bend if you hit the ground on a slam. We went through a couple of sets before Twiggs scream at us and no one was allowed to have the flag hit the ground. I know that someone from one of the supply companies came and said that their poles wouldn't bend. I can't remember where we were (Ohio?), but We were all given new poles and asked to to a slam (the old way), all of the poles looked like bananas. The tosses didn't seriously come on the field until 79. We had new poles starting that year that were from a piping company. They were aluminum, but a thicker wall and heavier gage, so the pole itself was the weight. We had the double flags with the sleeve, so both sides had to be the same weight. I guess this was their early solution to flag weights. We just the pole as the weight. It actually worked really well. Also remember that because of the tick system, almost anything that couldn't be done flawlessly would not be tried on the field. We experimented all the time with adding tosses, cartwheels, and other outrageous stuff (mostly at the winter practices), but were pulled back by the "system". So, as you know, the system had to be changed, and it was - eventually. I know we would work tosses, especially in the wind a Revere, all of the time to make sure that we could be perfect. Worst toss day in Lancer history was the Swansee MA show. We had 12 drops (all on the same move). A huge and unexpected gust of wind hit the flags on the toss over the horn line to the rifles. Twiggs was ######, so her fix was to teach us to listen to our surroundings and be able to project the wind direction, speed and when it would effect us. Kind of a Zen thing huh? At the time, we didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A27Lancer Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Worst toss day in Lancer history was the Swansee MA show. We had 12 drops (all on the same move). A huge and unexpected gust of wind hit the flags on the toss over the horn line to the rifles. Twiggs was ######, so her fix was to teach us to listen to our surroundings and be able to project the wind direction, speed and when it would effect us. Kind of a Zen thing huh? At the time, we didn't think so.[/i] That's our Margaret!! She was definitely a mentor and a source of great inspiration to me, and she wasn't even my instructor. She always took what she was given and made the most of it. She didn't stand for any crap, told it like it was, but always came away making you feel like she was your best friend. Hope she's at the party tomorrow night; I always love talking to her. Her brother Fran was on management staff when I marched, and he was the same way. Peggy and Denise were the greatest technicians 2-7 ever had, and are truly deserving of their Hall-of-Fame status!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancerlady Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Yup - you can see Marie F.Right-o on the toss over the sabres in 78. Everybody else had hand flags. I remember when they handed them out to the horn line, and Dig Me taught the moves. NONE of us were into holding the hand flags. I can only pick out Peggy (2nd from right) in the trick flag photo. Do you know who the others are?? Nance, there's a "Xmas is for Children" party at the Legion on Saturday, Dec. 2 at 7:30. I should be there... I believe that is Patty B. 4th down she has this picture framed in her bedroom. We visited her and Steve a few weeks ago. Anyway, from what I was told the "concept" of trick flag was a Peggy Twig and Patty B. discovery, Ike may have coined the term but the idea of it was created by those two, from what I was told. I just watched the 78 show with my son (his dad is in it) and yeah the flag toss is there..awesome show. My son really likes it..especially Carmen (that's what my hubby calls it) and Can can since most of those songs are in his toys..lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardguy89 Posted December 1, 2006 Author Share Posted December 1, 2006 Wow - thanks for all these answers! It still amazes me to see all the hard work it takes to bring one new element to the field (in this case the flag toss). And yeah, wind sucks. When I marched Cavies - we had one show with severe wind. I hit my left eye on a parallel toss and a couple of counts later my right eye on another toss (due to "unforseen" wind gusts). I looked like a racoon for a week! Later, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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