I want a clear, honest, and well thought answer to this

[sdstar]

I want to actually know what people think about drum corps going further into a more artistic direction,

Your premise is that amps, narration, and electronics are more artistic. If that's your premise, there's no possible clear, honest, and well thought out answer to justify not incorporating them.

I reject the premise. As has been said a million times, when I want to listen to __________, I'll go to a _________ concert.

When I want to listen to the sound of brass and percussion, I'll go to a drum corps show.

[brassdrumguard]

I definetley agree that DCI is way behind BOA/WGI. I do support use of amplification and voice and whatever else they decide to think up. I like the fact that the activity is ever changing. There is a lot of tradition in DCI to its very corps style beginings. That is why people aren't so happy about the new changes. I dont believe amps or whatever is more artistic either, however I believe the more choices we have to express what we are trying to get will better the chances of the audience "getting it".

A lot of people call DCI an art form, and even I have said the same thing. Lately, I dont know though. Should art have as many rules and restrictions as we put on shows? No not at all. I want to see corps pushing the envelope!

Then again, I wouldnt want to see shows that have so much recorded bits, or all synthesizer, or for heavens sake ... a woodwind section. After saying that Im contradicting my first statements. I want drum corps to stay drum corps.

So whatever.

:(

Edited April 18, 2007 by brassdrumguard

[SF2K4]

You're completely missing the point. The human voice (or whatever kind of voice is used as the narration) is just another timbrel layer to add to the music already going on. I could throw out a ton of music that has done this (some even, *gasp* Grammy and Pulitzer prize winning works) to mention Pop and Rock music, so I really don't see what you're trying to say here other than, "I think narration is stupid and people are stupid for writing it", which borders on slightly ignorant, but I digress.

No, YOU are missing MY point. Last time I checked, TALKING (read: narration) would not add any layer to the music. Talking is talking. If the show has to be read to me than no, I will never support it. What you are thinking about is SINGING, which actually I'm OK with. I won't lie, I just enjoy hearing say the entire ensemble sing (un-mic'd) rather than one soloist (mic'd or not), but I digress.

Narration =/= Singing. Narration I will never support.

Is electronic music any less music because it isn't of the traditional school that you're used to. I have a feeling that a lot of people are forming an opinion on something they have little to no knowledge of.

I don't go to an Atlanta Braves game to see someone kick a field goal just like I don't go to a drum and bugle corps show to see woodwinds or synthesized music. What's wrong with not liking synthesized music? It has it place, what with techno and various other musical genres. But this activity takes place OUTSIDE, a venue that just SCREAMS for acoustic music. Here's my question, what do you have AGAINST listening to brass and percussion?

[BD3BK2R2]

I would quit going to drum corps shows all together, there should be a bigger difference between drum corps and band.

Thank God for senior corps, well some senior corps. Why would we call it drum corps if it were more like Band?

Travler Garvey

[Hrothgar15]

To me, narration completely ruins a show. Therefore, I would not like to see it in drum and bugle corps.

[Stryfe]

You seem sort of isolated here, Einstein, so I'll say that I more or less completely agree.

Amplification: Said and done. It's done good things. There's no one still arguing about it, is there? Just checking.

Synth: I do detect a lot of nonsense in the criticisms against this...people tend to forget that drum corps are a type of artistry, and the competitions are largely what motivates their shows. If people/judges don't like it, it won't work. Right? Like a 135-DM show. interesting idea, won't work. No corps would use electronics as a "crutch" -- it may play a major supporting way in that any other keyboard plays a supporting role, it may even have a small solo! But in no pit anywhere are there no acoustic keyboards and only synth. This is some dystopian unreality that you shouldn't be afraid of. The goal -- which has been achieved over and over -- is a blend of acoustic and electronic sound. It's music, and when you put limits on an artform you shouldn't expect that much from it. If you want it to just be kept on a low boil artistically and preserve the "spirit of drum corps," fine, but I recommend you go all the way and find some corps with field timps, high marking time, one-valve real bugles, etc.

Woodwinds: Touchier subject. Here, the acoustics problem is a big one, and I don't really think any corps would give up the big brass sound us fans love. How daft do you presume them to be? I think what we'd be looking at is a sort of soloist integration or possibly small groups, based on the show. I say whatever, why not. Again, the spirit of the corps argument -- and I've never been a member, so this is an inferred outside standpoint -- is far too strictly traditionalist and identifies drum corps that way instead of the experience. This won't entirely change the activity. But whatever.

Vocals: I don't think anyone likes being talked through a show -- but where is such a show? (seriously, if it exists...) Everyone seems to flip over Cadets 2005. homigod, one line. And drumspeak. It's not like they got rid of the percussion solos, they were still there. As for other minor vocals, like the counts in Cavies 02 -- I'm not sure it's physically possible not to love that, but to each their own. New, Era... Again, I can't help but detect a recurring theme of "if we let this happen, its gunna eet our drum crosp!1" ...no. :\ And as for like actual singing... never heard any inside drum corps. But if it was done well, what's the matter? If you don't enjoy it because it's done poorly, the judges probably won't either. But if you're just against it because it's singing, that's your problem. [edit: I seem to be insinuating that corps only care about judge scores -- in case of either the fan reception or the judge reception, there would be problems. If a corps just does what it wants to, not caring about anything, then that might be a problem. Does that happen?]

And anyone who replies, (I'm trying not to sound bitingly sarcastic, I tend to come off like that) try to back up your opinions with whys? Not just I want this, I don't want that...

Edited April 18, 2007 by Stryfe

[Einstein On The Beach]

I definetley agree that DCI is way behind BOA/WGI. I do support use of amplification and voice and whatever else they decide to think up. I like the fact that the activity is ever changing. There is a lot of tradition in DCI to its very corps style beginings. That is why people aren't so happy about the new changes. I dont believe amps or whatever is more artistic either, however I believe the more choices we have to express what we are trying to get will better the chances of the audience "getting it".

A lot of people call DCI an art form, and even I have said the same thing. Lately, I dont know though. Should art have as many rules and restrictions as we put on shows? No not at all. I want to see corps pushing the envelope!

Then again, I wouldnt want to see shows that have so much recorded bits, or all synthesizer, or for heavens sake ... a woodwind section. After saying that Im contradicting my first statements. I want drum corps to stay drum corps.

So whatever.

:(

I'm cool with woodwinds.

No, YOU are missing MY point. Last time I checked, TALKING (read: narration) would not add any layer to the music. Talking is talking. If the show has to be read to me than no, I will never support it. What you are thinking about is SINGING, which actually I'm OK with. I won't lie, I just enjoy hearing say the entire ensemble sing (un-mic'd) rather than one soloist (mic'd or not), but I digress.

Narration =/= Singing. Narration I will never support.

I don't go to an Atlanta Braves game to see someone kick a field goal just like I don't go to a drum and bugle corps show to see woodwinds or synthesized music. What's wrong with not liking synthesized music? It has it place, what with techno and various other musical genres. But this activity takes place OUTSIDE, a venue that just SCREAMS for acoustic music. Here's my question, what do you have AGAINST listening to brass and percussion?

Who said anything about singing? Please don't make blanket statements about music and stuff several centuries of art into your little box which has already been disproven many many times. Listen, let give you some examples of what I'm talking about (though I've heard plenty of BOA examples that have worked GREAT, I will provide something else).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/...6230268-5543359

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/...6230268-5543359

These are clips from two movements of a piece by Steve Reich called Different Trains, for double string quartet and tape. It makes use of the human voice (quite #### well, the actual melodic content is actually lifted from the contour of the sampled voices). Reich, being Jewish, basically uses this piece to recollect how between 1939 and 1941 he would ride the train across the continental U.S. visiting his parents, but realizes that had he grown up in Europe at the time he wouldn't be on a train visiting his parents, but rather heading towards a concentration camp. It's incredibly moving, and wouldn't be half as effective were it not for Reich's ingenuity with electronics in addition to traditional techniques. The recording of that work went on to win a Grammy for Best Classical Composition I believe... That being said...

I find it disturbing that when I even mention narration you automatically spout, "I DON'T WANT THINGS BEING EXPLAINED TO ME!!!" Narration has a larger purpose than that, and the things you're saying are pretty much uninformed and demeaning of the many things that have been done, are being done now and will be in the future. Don't attempt to turn me into some sort of fiend trying to ruin your "precious drum corps", all I am saying with this thread is that drum corps could be capable of so much more artistically.

"But Einstein, are you saying that electronics are necessary for to be more artistic"

The answer to that is YES. If not just electronics, but anything. Drum corps is already moving into the direction of a more theatrical medium, why not just let it happen? Why are we stunting the growth of possible greatness?

[ekleve]

You talk as if playing a baritone magically takes "more talent" to play than a synthesizer.

Playing a baritone DOES take more talent to play than a synthesizer. No magic about it, it's just true. I can't imagine a reasonable argument to disprove this. A baritone is an actual musical instrument that requires soul to make music. Playing a synthesizer is more like operating a computer.

As for my opinion, I wouldn't stop going to shows if electronic instruments became legal, but I find their use to be 110% unnecessary. I am not looking forward to hearing all the complaining about it, so I'd rather it didn't pass.

[ekleve]

Vocals: I don't think anyone likes being talked through a show -- but where is such a show? (seriously, if it exists...)

Sure it exists. Refer to 2005 Blue Devils.

[Einstein On The Beach]

Playing a baritone DOES take more talent to play than a synthesizer. No magic about it, it's just true. I can't imagine a reasonable argument to disprove this. A baritone is an actual musical instrument that requires soul to make music. Playing a synthesizer is more like operating a computer.

A synthesizer is played the same way as a keyboard (because it is, in essence....a keyboard), so you are saying that a keyboard or piano do not take a "soul" to play? That's a pretty sketchy line you're treading. And I definitely know plenty of people in the electronic music world, or hell, even the classical music world who deal with the same things and equipment that will easily refute and disagree with you. Once again, this just an example of people hating and condemning that which they don't understand. I've yet to get one actual educated response in this thread, it's all the same, "IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE CUZ I DON'T LIKE IT". Please DCP, send me just one person to prove me wrong :(

As for my opinion, I wouldn't stop going to shows if electronic instruments became legal, but I find their use to be 110% unnecessary. I am not looking forward to hearing all the complaining about it, so I'd rather it didn't pass.

Was it 110% necessary for Phantom to have all of their trumpets use baritones for the ballad last year? I mean, why couldn't they just have the baritones they already play a little louder while the trumpets just stood on the sideline...

Sure it exists. Refer to 2005 Blue Devils.

A great show (with a pretty great narrator/announcer) despite the shoddy music design issues.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Einstein On The Beach