Replacing Our Losses in Corps Numbers

[silvertrombone]

Thought I already solved this problem...

Expanding from 128 to 135 to 150 to 200 only compounds the problem, not contributes to a solution. And the hierarchy of D1/2/3 in DCI does no good either. When I heard that D2/3 don't even get appearance fees I couldn't believe it--how do you guys even tour???

The first step is to require participation in a D2/3 corps or lower-ranking corps to participate in the traditional "top 6" or so corps. BD, Cadets, Cavies, PR, SCV, Scouts, and I'll even say Blooo. Want to march a top corps? OK, show us how much you're willing to do to do it. If 600 want to audition at Rockford, start requiring participation in a "lower" or "smaller" corps and see what the audition numbers are like. There are plenty of guys who want to march Cavies bad enough that they would do a year of D2/3 to qualify.

And, oh, I'm sooooo sorry that you don't "want" to march somewhere else. Tough. Lebron James didn't get to pick New York or Chicago, Cleveland got to pick him. DCI's problem is that it is top-heavy. There's a reason that the NYYankees have like 26 championships and the Montreal Canadiens have 30-something, or whatever--there didn't used to be a draft. Now, it is not possible to have a draft for DCI since you'd have people having to travel from Denver to Allentown when they could march Blue Knights right there, and folks who want to do BD who would be forced to march SCV. A draft is not possible, and is not what I propose. Follow my train of thought--the big sports franchises were dominating, so in came a draft, and voila--parity! I simply propose the next best thing in DCI that would <IMHO> contribute to a solution.

BOOM!!

Overnight the ranks of D2/3 swell to past their normal numbers and they suddenly have to grow to D1 size. Assist them further by <OMG!> paying them appearance fees and you have a better system of stronger "lower" corps. D2/3 can still compete against each other so you still have fair competition.

Oh, and maybe D1, or top corps, or whatever, struggle for a year to fill out their ranks. Doubt it. Suddenly there is a need for 20 people from Crown and Blue Knights in top 6 corps. Do they split for the top 3? Maybe a few of them do. Maybe it brings about <gasp for the first time since the VFW> PARITY!!!

NOOOOOOOOO!!!

Yeah, cold day in hades, the sky is falling, and DCI falls into pandemonium, I know.

Actually, I think a Federal lawsuit of the D2/3 and lower D1 corps against DCI and the D1 superstars would be kind of entertaining...monopoly thing, you know. I mean, the lower corps are kept lower by not having performance fees among other things that the top corps insist upon. Might be interesting viewing on CourTV. Just a side thought.

Of course, having professional outlets for DC's would also help. You know, a professional group kind of like Blast, etc that tours around during the year. Suddenly every braced-face junior high clarinet player has an idol--that amazing brass section of the <fill in the blank name> drum and bugle corps! Interest in DC's in general spikes, all those NYC brats start going to winterguard camp and DC camp replaces soccer camp--I mean, they're not going to do soccer beyond 5th grade anyways, right? That's when band kicks in and football robs the tuba section a couple of years later anyways.

[hsreed]

This is actually an easy solution - more profit. Drum corps as a group needs to raise more money in order to expand.

You can raise ticket prices, but you will actually lose fans. Lower ticket prices would actually work better (look what the tax cuts and low interest rats have done for the economy).

You can allow more members in each corps, which lowers the cost per kid to operate an individual corps (use 36 cans of coke bought at Costco compared to a 6 pack from 7-11 as a comparison). The problem is that consolidation will occur since drum corps doesn't attract fans like Costco attracts consumers.

Attract more consumers. By far the most difficult and costly method of growing drum corps. More fans means more people buying drum corps products and more money in the activity. But where are all the new people going to come from? Consider changing the product to attract new members.

Keep current and attract former consumers. It costs six times more money to attract new consumers as compared to keeping consumers. Plain and simple, old fans are cheaper to get back into the fold. If drum corps was interested in growing, the least costly manner would be attracting old timers. Alumni performances, such as 27, SCV, Madison, Kingsmen and Cadets or Cavaliers next year, is a great idea. It's one way to get old timers back in the seats. There are other ways as well.

Edited June 25, 2007 by hsreed

[JimF-LowBari]

What caused the loss of the numbers of Corps was not " mismanagement ". It was Finances. Corps left and right succumbed to a mountain of debt. Debt that primarily was caused by too many Corps traveling thousands of miles for 7-12 weeks across the country and not placing in the money in most of their competitive shows. Had these Corps stayed mostly local, or occassionally gone regional, they would have saved themselves literally tens of thousands of dollars at the end of each summer and many would still be with us today in my opinion.

As a comparasion, finances was also a major reason for the demise of a lot of smaller local Senior corps. As these corps hosted shows, the remaining corps had to go farther and farther to make shows which drove up the travel expenses. In the 70s when gas tripled in price this was the killer for many corps.

[MikeD]

Which brings up the differences between how DCI handles Div I and Div II/III. My first thought on reading Div III in NYC was "Who the #### is that?" until I thought about it. To go with Bruckner8s idea on changing behavior, let's start with the reheaded bastich stepchildren way Div II/III is treated by DCI, potential marchers and fans. Great example is expanding Div I to 150 marchers so more kids can march. Ahhh, could not the same be done by having the young folks fill the holes in Div II/III corps that are struggling. But.... I have yet to see that idea even mentioned.

Because you are looking at this backwards. Yes, it would be great if more of the cuts migrated to a local II/III corps in their area. However, a lot of likds are no looking to "march drum corps"....they are looking to "march Cavies"...."march Cadets"...."march Blue Devils"....etc. There is nothing wrong with that either, IMO. It's their time and $$$ to invest as they wish.

[MikeD]

It's too late to adopt now because of the sheer lack of Corps we have today ( although it's not all bad, as the numbers in Div.1 seem better today than just a few short years ago ), but DCI should never have gone on a national touring model in it's infancy. Instead they should have adopted a Regional Model where corps competed for regional championships. The top 2 or 3 Corps, and only those Corps, then would advance to the Championship ( 8 Corps in 3 days of Competition then vie for the DCI Title ). This model is not unique. In fact it is commonplace in NCAA, in Little League, Babe Ruth, Legion Ball, and most other national sports. Had this model been adopted early on, it is my opionion that we would have not seen the demise and loss of so many numbers of Corps. In almost every instance, it was not " mismanagement " per se that we often hear as the reason for the loss of so many Corps. I don't buy this reason as a predominent factor in most failures of Corps at all. There were lots of intelligent and talented managers in charge of Corps. What caused the loss of the numbers of Corps was not " mismanagement ". It was Finances. Corps left and right succumbed to a mountain of debt. Debt that primarily was caused by too many Corps traveling thousands of miles for 7-12 weeks across the country and not placing in the money in most of their competitive shows. Had these Corps stayed mostly local, or occassionally gone regional, they would have saved themselves literally tens of thousands of dollars at the end of each summer and many would still be with us today in my opinion.

DCI was not on a national touring summer-long schedule in it's infancy. It was as corps and shows died out that those left had to adopt that model or have no place to compete.

And...most of the 440+ corps that existed at the dawn of DCI had very little to do with DCI...they folded for the reasons stated in DCP many times over.

[vferrera]

DCI was not on a national touring summer-long schedule in it's infancy. It was as corps and shows died out that those left had to adopt that model or have no place to compete.

And...most of the 440+ corps that existed at the dawn of DCI had very little to do with DCI...they folded for the reasons stated in DCP many times over.

That is correct. Many shows were still organized by AL, VFW, CYO and other organizations up until the 80s. Often these shows had different rules and scoring systems. A corps could get a 75 at a VFW show and the next night a 65 at a DCI show. It was pretty crazy.

The touring model was introduced by the Western corps (Anaheim, Troopers, SCV) who had to be on the road for 6 weeks every summer. That's what gave them such a competitive advantage. The first midwest corps to adopt this model were Blue Stars and Madison. Cavaliers were slow to change, resulting in their competitive downfall in the 70s.

[mobrien]

A few general thoughts, in no particular order...

1. The regional aspect (ie: "there are no corps here because the local student base isn't prepared") falls when you consider the fact that most corps members these days don't come from anywhere near the corps' homebase. Cavaliers have very few native Illinois boys in the corps, even though the Chicago-area is home to some excellent school music programs. Go figure...

2. The cost factor probably isn't as big a thing as we might think. Most corps have scholarship programs or other ways in which the members can work down their tour fees. And in relation to other summer kid activities, drum corps can actually be a bargain. My kids' summer camp costs $495 for one week per kid - and that's pretty average. Extend out the 12 weeks that kids are with corps, and $1400-1800 for a summer is reasonable.

3. The number of kids who are cut and then disappear out of the system is the real question, and I sometimes wonder how much of it has to do with the changes in the way membership is acquired.

As late as the early 80s, the idea of "auditioning" for a corps was pretty foreign. If you showed up in October and wanted to march, you were given an instrument and stuck in the line, and as long as you did your part to learn the show and showed up to the rehearsals and the camps, you were in. This isn't to say that you couldn't be cut from a particular instrument, but it was more common that someone who couldn't quite hack the snare book would be moved down to tenors or basses - but they were still in the corps. The membership requirement, under this system, wasn't about you being a stud on your horn so much as you simply being able and willing to commit to the corps itself - the membership in the org was more important than your role in the summer show.

But that seems to have changed a bit, with focus on the summer's presentation being more important than the actual membership. While the technical skills of the best players are certainly better than they were 25 years ago, it HAS come at the expense of a more inclusive form of membership in the corps themselves, which can, in some cases, lead to a weakening of local sponsorship ties (why would a local business support an organization whose members aren't in their own constituency?). There are some exceptions (mho, Cavaliers have done an excellent job of building their local support base despite the fact that so few local boys are part of the corps now), but in some other cases, the loss of local support due to 'foreign' membership has led to failure of corps to survive.

In terms of "how do you fix that?", I honestly don't know. The creation of new regional circuits which emphasize local competition over national touring is the most obvious answer, but even then, you have to deal with the changes in expectations kids have these days; I suspect that a lot of 17 year olds would look at a regional association's schedule and think that it was baby-stuff compared to the excitement of traveling with a Div 1 corps. So if you were going to create such a regional circuit ("league" is probably more correct), you'd have to have some ways in which the activity would differ in positive ways from the DCI model of competition, so that the choice to work with the alternative was seen as a 'cool' choice instead of the DCI model.

In other words, you've got to 'think different' if you want to grow a new bunch of corps and expand the number of participants nation-wide. Doing a small-scale version of DCI's summer touring program probably won't do it by itself; you'd have to go in a slightly different direction with a different set of rewards and expectations.

Edited June 25, 2007 by mobrien

[euponitone]

And, oh, I'm sooooo sorry that you don't "want" to march somewhere else. Tough. Lebron James didn't get to pick New York or Chicago, Cleveland got to pick him.

This is my least favorite analogy, perhaps ever on this page. How can you possibly compare a star athlete, getting paid millions, to a kid who is paying 2000 dollars and giving up their summer job and other activities, who may only have 1 shot at marching where they want. My first 2 years in cadets, I sat with rook-outs, and there were quite a few of them in the corps. Its called reality, welcome to it....

[Mad Mello]

This is my least favorite analogy, perhaps ever on this page. How can you possibly compare a star athlete, getting paid millions, to a kid who is paying 2000 dollars and giving up their summer job and other activities, who may only have 1 shot at marching where they want. My first 2 years in cadets, I sat with rook-outs, and there were quite a few of them in the corps. Its called reality, welcome to it....

Agreed. I only marched one year, and had no prior corps experience. I wouldn't trade my year with Madison for ANY other corps. I wanted to march Scouts, and if I hadn't made the corps I was going to march Bluecoats...hardly helping the little guy there!

[audiodb]

To kick things off, my first idea is looking into the reasons why some non-top 15 corps, including Div II/III are going inactive and what might be done to help the situation. Secondly, what might help the environment in which these new corps operate.

The real answer will quite possibly kill discussion, as some just don't want to hear it - but I'll try anyway.

I've supported this activity for quite some time now, and watched lots of ideas come and go regarding the plight of division II/III, and even lower division I corps. But with few exceptions, kids don't want to pay $2000 and work that hard to march with corps that fall into those categories.

So what's the solution? Avoid those categories. If your corps is to thrive, they need to be among the corps who have some remote chance of making the division I finals, or better yet, winning. The only way to have more thriving corps is to give more corps at least a remote chance of achieving those goals. That's right - closer competition. The more winners we have, the more title contenders we have, the more finalist contenders we have....the more thriving corps we will have.

Any idea that levels the playing field should be on the table for consideration in this effort. That should include, for starters:

- Retooling the scoring system and/or judging practices to focus more on performance, less on design. Contests must be scored based on the performances of that given day, not the preconceived expectations of the past few days, years or decades.

- Expand the judging pool to include fresh opinions, perhaps some outside of the traditional, insular judging community. Perhaps a caption for such outside input should be instituted. I'd rather have Paula Abdul and Simon Cowell judging DCI than see the same top six year after year after year....

- Steal from the rich and give to the poor - every successful team sports league does this in some way (usually with a draft system and salary caps, neither of which can apply to drum corps). For DCI, level out not just appearance fees, but "share" payments as well. And if that's not enough, pay the lower-placing corps more than the winners. Top corps make extra money from increased souvie sales and endorsement offers.

- Eliminate all the silly rules and policies that deny voting rights to some division I corps. Any corps that passes the rigorous financial and organizational evaluation criteria of DCI division I should have an equal voice in the boardroom.

- Eliminate any rules or policies requiring touring. Encourage surviving division II corps to apply for division I status, with the option of touring less as finances permit (i.e. Pacific Crest, Academy) or doing the full tour for those division II units that have that capability and interest.

- DCI should play an active role in the bigger recruiting crisis of the activity - recruiting adults to run corps and serve as support staff and on BODs for these groups. Anything DCI can do to make these tasks more palatable to people should be at the top of DCI's priority list. With that in mind....

- Discourage rule changes that add expensive equipment to the activity. Given the above problems DCI corps have been grappling with, approving rule changes for any-key brass, amplification and two increases in membership maximum while simultaneously increasing travel demands on touring corps seems downright negligent. Four division I corps have been sidelined under the strain. How can we even talk about adding more expense (electronics, for example) and not address costs (i.e. fuel) instead?

That's stage 1. Stage 2, should the above ideas actually get implemented, would be to rebuild the intermediate level of the activity through a "regionalization" concept, something DCI has never really tried - and something that could not be attempted until the competitive pot is once again stirred. Competitive stagnation is a primary reason behind the dissolution of the regions and the eight-week tour we have today, so that stagnation must be reversed first.

So, in summary, there's quite a bit DCI and it's corps could do to address the declining number of corps, should they choose to.