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Blue Knights vs. Crown and Boston


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Just to clarify:

I think the judges bumped their heads because they are so concerned with slotting out the correct placement, they forgot to read the backs of the sheets. Having every corps drop by an average of 1.2 over night speaks to this point.

Hang on a sec. Surely you can't be saying that every corps score should automatically go up every show. And how do you reconcile this with the fact that only ONE judge on the panel in Lexington even judged the previous night's show in Alabama?? Wouldn't an almost entirely different set of judges perhaps view the corps differently on a different night??

If this were the exact same panel from the previous shows, then maybe I could understand where you're coming from. But if my cursory glance at the recaps is correct (if i'm wrong, please let me know), six of the eight judges in Lexington were giving their first reads on these corps. First viewings with no previous standard of what to expect from their performances.

I don't know. My experience in going to these critiques and talking with these judges leads me to believe that for the most part, they do their jobs quite well and do have their acts together. Not always, but far more often than not.

Edited by rut-roh
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On the subject of how things things can change during the summer:

This time last year based on June 24th scores:

Boston (72.--/7th) was almost 2 pts over CC (70.85/8th).

BK (69.--/11th) still hadn't broken 70 yet.

What happened Finals Night?

BK 7th

CC 8th

Boston 10th

Anything CAN happen ....

So maybe it would be alright if I said something like this could happen:

BAC 7th

BK 8th

CC 10th

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I guess Mr. Romanowski has a different view (or level of standard) for percussion. Most of the recap was the same except for him which caused a 1-1.2 drop in this caption for all corps from the previous night (sans PR). So where is the problem? Is it that Romanowski is correct and did his job according to the sheets as he saw things unfold? PERHAPS! If that's the case, I congratulate him. But what of the other judges? The spreads stay virtually the same in each subcaption and with the exception of Visual Ensemble and Performance, all went down, yet have the same spreads. Ok ... so the corps are consistent (for the most part) and the two panels saw things pretty much the same way on both nights? Maybe.

So, do I point to the Majority of the judges and claim slotting? Or do I point to the percussion judge and claim that he's not scoring to the same standards as the other DCI Percussion judges? How about both? It's consistent where it shouldn't be .. and inconsistent where it should be. If that makes any sense.

Nobody is really crying fowl here ..> I just don't agree with the way things are being done .. and have been done for quite some time. I wasn't around during the tick system, but at least then, a 12th place corps could win drums or horns or visual. It wasn't subjective and a tick was a tick.

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Events that occured in 1998 have no repeat no bearing on future events. I have invested tens of thousands of dollars in the stock market and gambled quite a bit as well on football, basketball, horse racing, cards, craps and there is one thing for sure is that past results have no impact on a future event. A couple of reasons. Human element and error. Now we as drum corps folks all know Troopers or Colts are not going to beat Cadets this year. No offense to either corps, but we all see and identify the difference in talent, staff personnel and show design. But when you mention an event that occured in 1998 and the result, these group of kids were what between 8 and 12 years old? And the other human factor we have which is hard to measure? Judging. And/or the bias in that which I will not get into. Somebody here earlier made a reference to the scores in relation to a golf score. I take that idea a bit further. Last night I hit a drive 320 yards dead center. Will I do it again the next time. No way!! Too much of a human element factor for that to occur. Can I over time learn to do this every time? probably not for the same reason. 50 -75% of the time? Possible if I put enough effort and time into it and have the exact mindset and stance and grip and swing path every single time. Myself, I would never base a prediction on what happened last year, 2 years ago, 1998 etc... well, you get my drift.

Edited by bstar82
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If you follow trends, this happens quite often. Look at how well BAC and Crown jumped out of the gates a year ago only to flatten out in the end. It happened to us in '98. In NYC we were .1 behind Madison for 6th place at Giants stadium only to drop and stagnate in the end finishing 9th. It ain't how you start it is how you finish.

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

:laugh:

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I guess Mr. Romanowski has a different view (or level of standard) for percussion. Most of the recap was the same except for him which caused a 1-1.2 drop in this caption for all corps from the previous night (sans PR). So where is the problem? Is it that Romanowski is correct and did his job according to the sheets as he saw things unfold? PERHAPS! If that's the case, I congratulate him. But what of the other judges? The spreads stay virtually the same in each subcaption and with the exception of Visual Ensemble and Performance, all went down, yet have the same spreads. Ok ... so the corps are consistent (for the most part) and the two panels saw things pretty much the same way on both nights? Maybe.

I believe that Mr. Romanowski was the judge who was in both panels on both nights, correct?

And if that were true, don't you think that the more a judge sees a show, the more mistakes they're going to notice? (especially because the more familiar a judge is with a show, the more they know where to look or listen for mistakes)

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Okay, true missed that. Trends don't tell the future, but if you see that something tends to happen, there is a good chance it will. To an extreme, I bet that Cadets, Cavies, or BD will win this year. Well that hasn't not happened for 16 years. I believe what he said was just one example of many times that sort of thing has happened.

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I believe that Mr. Romanowski was the judge who was in both panels on both nights, correct?

And if that were true, don't you think that the more a judge sees a show, the more mistakes they're going to notice? (especially because the more familiar a judge is with a show, the more they know where to look or listen for mistakes)

Actually, I made a mistake. Romanowski wasn't judging in Lexington... he judged the night before in AL. SO I guess my comments were directed toward Allan Kristensen (percussion judge in Lexington). So I guess we're both wrong.

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Events that occured in 1998 have no repeat no bearing on future events. I have invested tens of thousands of dollars in the stock market and gambled quite a bit as well on football, basketball, horse racing, cards, craps and there is one thing for sure is that past results have no impact on a future event. A couple of reasons. Human element and error. Now we as drum corps folks all know Troopers or Colts are not going to beat Cadets this year. No offense to either corps, but we all see and identify the difference in talent, staff personnel and show design. But when you mention an event that occured in 1998 and the result, these group of kids were what between 8 and 12 years old? And the other human factor we have which is hard to measure? Judging. And/or the bias in that which I will not get into. Somebody here earlier made a reference to the scores in relation to a golf score. I take that idea a bit further. Last night I hit a drive 320 yards dead center. Will I do it again the next time. No way!! Too much of a human element factor for that to occur. Can I over time learn to do this every time? probably not for the same reason. 50 -75% of the time? Possible if I put enough effort and time into it and have the exact mindset and stance and grip and swing path every single time. Myself, I would never base a prediction on what happened last year, 2 years ago, 1998 etc... well, you get my drift.

Okay context context context, you're taking my words and putting them out of context!!! Two things to consider. One, trends do repeat themselves. In this case since the development of the" regional competition" a majority of the scores from the corps in the morning are extremely high and then those corps that advance to the finals drop in score when "All" of the finalist corps are present. This happens not all the time which is something I did not say, but a majority of the time. Therefore based on the hypothesis that all corps get together equals mid tier to bottom tier of top 12 scores drop. Or as I have said they will flatten out. Based off your statement that they (BK) are dirty right now and the observations of others that say Crown is fairly clean, I would say that BK has the most room to grow score wise. They appear to be in a position that they will not peak too early.

2nd point to consider is that your point that what happened two years ago or ten has no influence on judging trends, I see is false. That logic could hold water if there were completely new judges that had never judged corps in their lives judging finals week every year. That's not to say that there are not new judges judging this year or any year, but I can tell you that the same experienced judges judging finals week will be similiar if not the same to the past years. Heck, I am not so removed from marching that there are not still names of juges that I recognized from my days. Judges judge not only by the standards set before them, but I think we'd agree that they judge based off their experience. This in itself lends itself towards patterns as we talk all the time about specific judges that score a certain way. I would say this is completely relevant towards trends. Ask yourself this, if scores don't even out for mid tier corps in the end, then why have we not seen a multitude of years where corps 1-10 are consistently in the 90's?? We could all agree that sound quality, show design, and execution have improved vastly over the past decade from top to bottom, yet that 12th place corps ussually has to be above 85 or 86, and that 7-10th place corps have to be somewhere between 87- 90ish, and the top corps genreally score between 92- 98. The past does dictate the future as standards dictate that they must!! My point simply is I see Crown is on top and kicking butt, but we've all seen that many times, not all the time the corps that starts out ahead does not always end up ahead. May happen, may not, I am not Nostradamus, (spelling I know) but my bet would be on what I think is a trend!! :P If your ever in a gambling mood on a odd number year bet on the Spurs!!! B) Other than the 2001 season and since 1999 they have won every NBA title on odd years: '99 (stupid Lakers '01) '03 '05 '07!! By the way I am envious of your 320 yard drive. I can hit the ball about 230 off the tee!! :laugh: Good chatting to you about these issues. Interesting points we are both making!

Wes Perkins

BK '97 '98

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