Tez
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Posts posted by Tez
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Another thing I was considering... and of course this is a far more subjective topic, but..... which corps is the 2nd best corps overall in the DCI era? Number one (BD) is of course a no brainier by nearly every metric, but I believe good arguments can be made for both The Cadets and SCV for 2nd. Cadets have more titles (10 to 7), but SCV has the better average finish (3.8 to 5.2) and overall finals appearances (47 to 41). I find this interesting because the rest of the top 5 rankings I think are pretty straightforward.
My top 10 corps of the DCI era
1 - Blue Devils
2 - Cadets/SCV
4 - Cavaliers
5 - Phantom Regiment
It gets a little tougher after this, but I would rank the rest of the top 10:
6 - Madison Scouts
7 - Bluecoats
8 - Carolina Crown
9 - Star of Indiana
10 - Crossmen
Though Crown, Bluecoats, and Star each have one title, Bluecoats has had the most longevity, and Star the least. 10th is especially tough and you could also consider 27th Lancers (several top 5 finishes), Kingsmen (championship but only 3 really decent years), Spirit (longevity), or even BAC (longevity) for the spot. I went with Crossmen because they have had the best longevity of all the ones just mentioned. What do you guys think?
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My apologies if any of these has been covered in other threads (too busy/tired to read all of them).
Congrats to SCV for winning their 7th overall title to tie the Cavaliers for third most all time. They also received their 23rd overall medal to tie the Cadets for 2nd most all time.
The Blue Devils received the silver for the record 11th time.
The Bluecoats won their 3rd bronze and 5th overall medal to tie the Madison Scouts for 7th most all time.
Boston wins their first caption award of any kind.
SCV wins their first Brass trophy since 1987, and only 3rd all time (also won in '84).
SCV wins their 14th percussion title breaking a tie with the Blue Devils for most all time.
Crossmen's 86.75 was the highest 12th place score ever at finals (previous was also Crossmen in 2014)
And finally, here are our current 10 years averages for finals placements:
1 - Blue Devils (1.4)
2 - Carolina Crown (3.0)
3 - Bluecoats (4.1)
4 - Cadets (4.3)
4 - Vanguard (4.3)
6 - Cavaliers (5.4)
7- Phantom Regiment (7.1)
8 - BAC (8.2)
9 - Blue Knights (8.9)
10 - Blue Stars (9.9)
11 - Madison Scouts (11.3)
12 - Crossmen (13.3)
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2 minutes ago, war eagle said:
you and I have a different definition for musicianship. drill has nothing to do with it in my definition. Aside, SCVs drill is extremely good and beautifully performed, but BDs drill is more sophisticated. CCs drill is still high school de jour to me. And while BDs and SCVs drills are different neither look like a high school band director did them.
Didn't Sacktig do Crown's drill this year?
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6 minutes ago, Treefidy said:
They stepped off the field for that last chord and got quieter... Weird...
That is because they were under the recording mics. It has nothing to do with on field amplification. Believe me, their last chord last night (seeing it live) was probably the loudest of the whole evening.
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3 hours ago, 31rabbit said:
theory discussion: when putting sports into historical perspective for these types of discussion, Baseball defines itself by equipment changes, basketball uses the shotclock and 3pt shot to define the modern era. I think comparing 70's DCI scores to modern scores is faulty for several reasons. so what is the 'modern' era of drum corps for the sake of contextual historic discussion? My gut instinct is to start it at 2005.
I would still say our current era (where we can somewhat compare scores) began in 1984 with the introduction of build-up scoring. It think that rule changed overall show design more than amplification, electronics, or non-bugle brass instruments ever did. If I compare shows from 1980 to 1985, to me they are far more different than say 2000 to 2005, or 2010 to 2015.
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Since it has been mentioned a couple times in this thread, here is the highest score (at finals) for each position:
1st - 99.650 - Blue Devils 2014
2nd - 98.525 - Blue Devils 2004
3rd - 97.700 - Blue Devils 1998
4th - 96.850 - Santa Clara Vanguard 2013
5th - 95.675 - Carolina Crown 2014
6th - 95.300 - Star of Indiana 1989
7th - 94.050 - Bluecoats 2007
8th - 91.900 - Blue Stars 2010
9th - 90.525 - Boston Crusaders 2004
10th - 89.100 - Suncoast Sound 1988
11th - 87.700 - Glassmen 2005
12th - 86.225 - Crossmen 2014I can see one of the 8th-11th scores being a new high this year.
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If SCV goes on to win drums (as many expect)... it will be their 13th Sanford overall, moving them into a tie with the Blue Devils for most all time.
If Crown goes on to medal, it will be their 6th overall, breaking a tie with the Madison Scouts for 6th on the all-time medal list.
If the Blue Devils win, it will be the 9th time that you could say they won 3 out of the past 4 years.... yet amazingly they have still yet to three-peat!
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- The Blue Devils have won the past 8 Colorguard trophies.... the longest streak for any single caption winner. So either this amazing streak ends, or BD puts up 9 in a row.
- If Crown or Bluecoats happen to take guard, it will be the first non-BD/Cadets/Cavies guard win since Phantom got it, all the way back in 1988!
- Conversely, the drum trophy has not had a back to back winner since Cadets got 3 in a row in 2001-2003. Since BD won last year, and seem to be a little off their game in percussion this year, this streak will likely continue.
- Crown is in position to win their 5th overall medal, which would actually tie them with the Madison Scouts for 6th all time.
- If the Blue Devils happen to slip to 3rd place (and it is Crown and Bluecoats as the top 2), it will be the first time since 1972 (DCI's inaugural season) that at least one of the big four (BD/Cadets/Cavies/SCV) is not in the top two!
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May have been the case when you saw them.... but last night, Cadets did not have anywhere near the volume of the other top corps. It sounded like they were going for the ultimate "dark symphonic sound" to me. Based on the few biggest hits of each show, in loudness I would rank:
Bluecoats
Crown
Blue Devils
Blue Knights
Madison
SCV
Phantom
then maybe Cadets
Edit: responding to wvu80 above (I can't figure out quotes on this forum at all)
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Along with all of the other Blue Devils' records, they now own the highest 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place scores:
1st - 2014 - 99.650
2nd - 2004 - 98.525
3rd - 1998 - 97.700
Also, in the past 20 years, the Blue Devils have only lost Colorguard 6 times (1996, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2007). -
You're missing the point. The point of focus of this conversation is BD's casual, behind-the-scenes transitions which lack definition, and how to fix them. (There are several of these sloppy, empty transitions.) Character interaction like the kind you see on set is one way to augment these weak transitions.
I think you are missing most of what BD is actually doing. Watch some of their "inside360" videos.... they show how they go into great depths to define the character at each moment of the show... especially in these so called "casual" transitions. That is when they overload the 'character' focus the most. And this comes across in a HUGE way when viewing the show. The thing you are complaining about... and saying they do not do... is precisely what BD does so well. Go watch the show again.... you must have missed a ton.
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YesSo you seriously think if you took all of the exact same kids in the Cadets (or Crown, BK, etc) and sent them to CA at the beginning of the season that they would be performing the BD show "worse"? And conversely, the BD kids would be winning performing the Cadets/BK/etc shows better?
Edit: I would put money on the first part (other corps kids would not perform BD's shows as well as them).
However, I don't think BD's members would automatically win with another corps' show. Performance is only part of the score, plus a show's design must be matched with the talent level of the corps. I do think they would likely score higher with BDs members though.
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I *love* BD this year but this whole nonsense of BD can do things ... that no other corps comes close to pulling off" is just nonsense. Their MM talent is no better or worse than the other top corps.
In my opnion, it probably is higher. Of course you could only measure this by auditioning each individual member... but to my ears and eyes they are on a considerably different level. I hear and see what I consider "professional" from BD much more than the other groups. The judges acknowledge this, I just wish more of the fans (at least on DCP) would.
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We must have two completely different definitions of "difficult" or "movement." There are several places in BDs show that they do things marching wise while playing that no other corps comes close to pulling off. Literally running while playing complex syncopated rhythms in a variety of styles.... that's not demanding? And their marching form at any tempo and step size is simply impeccable.Just for the heck of it I went on over to Youtube and checked out Devs show and SCV's, who I have yet to see. Just in the opening number it looks like SCV outmarched Devils entire show. There's more movement there. SCV does more forms and more difficult ones. Devs park and blow a lot and plod much of the time. I think we're at the stage where reputation is getting points instead of performance. Yes Devs are good musical performers but I definitely wouldn't put them at the top marching wise.
I can see not liking their show design style, or even the style of drill (it is very different from the other corps)... but if you think the Blue Devils have an easier show... then you are truly being fooled.
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I think the term "design" has been misused more in this thread than I have ever seen a word misused on this forum.
Pretty sure the OP is referring to "concept" or "theme" instead of design.
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So after Allentown night 1 there has been no seedings movement so far..... here is what can happen tomorrow in regards to seeding (and performance order for Prelims) based on tonight's results:
Cadets need to score higher than 98.9 to move above BD.
Crown must score higher than 93.55 to stay ahead of SCV.
Cavaliers must score higher than 98.35 to jump SCV.
Madison must score higher than 88.3 to jump Blue Stars.
Troopers must score higher than 79.625 to stay ahead of the Colts.
Spirit must score higher than 82.95 to jump the Colts.
The Academy must score higher than 77.225 to stay ahead of Oregon.
Mandarins must score higher than 78.925 to jump Pacific Crest.
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Even with Phantom beating BK in 2 out of the three regionals.... BK still averaged a higher score (they won by a whole point in Atlanta)... so they will go on after Phantom for Prelims.
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Yes, look at the recap. BDB has 70s-80s in every subcaption.
They halved GE like they do for the rest of the captions.
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Well, 10 years in the past (2004) the top 6 were:
Cavies
BD
SCV
Cadets
PR
Bluecoats
Crown
(look familiar?)
So basically Cavies and Phantom have moved down a little (but Cavies are on the rise again), Bluecoats and Crown up a little (even though they're placing only a couple positions higher, they are much more in the "contenders" category now)... but other than that, not much movement. So based on that I don't think we will see any drastic change in the next 10 years as far as corps placements. Maybe one or two of the top ones today will have some fall off(probably not BD or Cadets though) and maybe another will come up or return to prominence (Madison possibly?). Of the non-finalists corps, I think Oregon Crusaders have the highest chance to really improve over the next decade, but it will be quite difficult to duplicate a run like Crown has made.
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Bridgemen and Spirit tied on finals night, but Bridgemen won prelims in 1980. Was 1980 one of the years that captions were only decided on Finals?
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Every year, someone usually posts about what each corps must do at Allentown to move up a spot in regards to their seeding for Prelims. Since I have not seen that yet, I decided to give it a go myself. This is of course assuming the Prelims seeding (thus performance order) is based on the average of the three regionals like it has been the past few years. This list is based on the corps' current average score between SA and Atlanta, with the number in parenthesis, the amount they must outscore their competition one spot above them.
1.Blue Devils
2.Cadets (2.075)
3.Bluecoats (1.875)
4.Carolina Crown (1.45)
5.SCV (0.525)
6.Cavaliers (4.25)
7.Blue Knights (3.875)
8.Phantom Regiment (0.35)
9.Boston Crusaders (3.275)
10.Blue Stars (1.2)
11.Madison Scouts (1.5)
12.Crossmen (3.075)
13.Troopers (3.725)
14.Colts (2.55)
15.Spirit (0.775)
16.Academy (2.475)
17.Oregon Crusaders (1.15)
18.Pacific Crest (3.45)
19.Mandarins (1.575)
20.Jersey Surf (5.775)
21.Cascades (3.95)
22.Pioneer (6.1)
Hopefully my math was correct on all of this... apologies if not.
In my opinion, only a few corps have a realistic opportunity to change positions. I think SCV has a small chance to jump back over Crown with a great performance, and Phantom could obviously jump back over BK. Spirit, Blue Stars and Oregon have the next easiest deficits to overcome.
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I don't have everything, but here are the "big three."
Colorguard
1972 - Kingsmen
1973 - Troopers
1974 - SCV
1975 - 27th
1976 - 27th
1977 - Phantom Regiment
1978 - SCV
1979 - 27th Lancers
1980 - 27th Lancers
1981 - SCV
1982 - Blue Devils
1983 - Madison Scouts
1984 - Blue Devils
1985 - Spirit of Atlanta
1986 - Blue Devils
1987 - Spirit of Atlanta
1988 - Phantom Regiment
1989 - Cadets
1990 - Blue Devils
1991 - Cadets
1992 - Blue Devils
1993 - Cadets
1994 - Cadets
1995 - Blue Devils
1996 - Cadets
1997 - Blue Devils
1998 - Blue Devils
1999 - Blue Devils
2000 - Cavaliers
2001 - Blue Devils
2002 - Cavaliers
2003 - Blue Devils
2004 - Cavaliers
2005 - Cadets
2006 - Blue Devils
2007 - Cavaliers
2008 - Blue Devils
2009 - Blue Devils
2010 - Blue Devils
2011 - Blue Devils
2012 - Blue Devils
2013 - Blue DevilsBrass
1972 - Kingsmen
1973 - Madison Scouts
1974 - Madison Scouts
1975 - Madison Scouts
1976 - Blue Devils
1977 - Blue Devils
1978 - Phantom Regiment
1979 - Blue Devils
1980 - Blue Devils
1981 - Blue Devils
1982 - Blue Devils
1983 - Cadets
1984 - Cadets/Blue Devils/SCV
1985 - Cadets/Blue Devils
1986 - Blue Devils
1987 - Cadets/SCV
1988 - Blue Devils
1989 - Phantom
1990 - Star of Indiana
1991 - Blue Devils/Star
1992 - Star of Indiana
1993 - Blue Devils/Star
1994 - Blue Devils
1995 - Blue Devils/Cadets/Scouts
1996 - Phantom Regiment
1997 - Blue Devils
1998 - Blue Devils
1999 - Blue Devils
2000 - Cadets
2001 - Blue Devils
2002 - Cavaliers
2003 - Blue Devils
2004 - Blue Devils
2005 - Cadets
2006 - Cavaliers
2007 - Blue Devils
2008 - Blue Devils
2009 - Carolina Crown
2010 - Blue Devils
2011 - Carolina Crown
2012 - Carolina Crown
2013 - Carolina CrownPercussion
1972 - Kingsmen
1973 - Vanguard
1974 - Vanguard
1975 - Vanguard
1976 - Blue Devils
1977 - Blue Devils
1978 - Vanguard
1979 - Vanguard
1980 - Bridgemen
1981 - Bridgemen
1982 - Bridgemen
1983 - Blue Devils
1984 - Blue Devils
1985 - Blue Devils
1986 - Blue Devils
1987 - Cadets
1988 - Vanguard
1989 - Vanguard
1990 - Cadets
1991 - Vanguard/Star/Cavaliers
1992 - Cavaliers
1993 - Star
1994 - Blue Devils
1995 - Cavaliers
1996 - Blue Devils
1997 - Blue Devils
1998 - Vanguard
1999 - Cavaliers
2000 - Cavaliers
2001 - Cadets
2002 - Cadets
2003 - Cadets
2004 - Vanguard
2005 - Cadets
2006 - Phantom Regiment
2007 - Blue Devils
2008 - Phantom Regiment
2009 - Blue Devils
2010 - Phantom Regiment
2011 - Cavaliers
2012 - Blue Devils
2013 - Cadets -
Going off tonight's scores and my impressions of the performances I think finals will be:
1.BD
2.Bluecoats
3.Cadets
4.Crown
5.SCV
Crown and Bluecoats have so much more room to clean than the corps they are chasing but only have to gain 3-4 tenths each.
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'09 to '18: A Decade in LOS (Favorite Shows by Corps)
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
For me it is
Blue Devils - 2010
Crown - 2013
Bluecoats - 2016
Cadets - 2015
SCV - 2018
Cavaliers - 2011
Regiment - 2010
BAC - 2018
Blue Knights - 2014
Blue Stars - 2010
Madison - 2012
Crossmen - 2017