KingJoeVII
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Posts posted by KingJoeVII
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What the heck? You really think there have never been sequel shows before? Really?Just a Friendly question. How long have you been a fan of/marched in/been invovled in drum corps?Out of curiosity, how many shows have actually carried a single original story through like cadets 05 - 06, with the second show leading off right where the first show finished? Things like scv 88-89, or Madison 95-95 dont count. Similar theme =/= a 'sequel'. Anyway, I am genuinely curious...
Well, I should have hedged my bets a bit and put in more of an explanation, but I was at work at the time and very tired.
salad hits the nail on the head about shows and sequels. Sure there have been shows played back to back that have had very similar themes and even the same music, as salad points out. What those shows don't have is the narrative connection that spans the year. '06 took the same narrative from '05 and expanded it in new directions...that is different from say '88'89 SCV where it was basically a rehash of the same material and MS '95'96 where there is no deeper overall narrative.
'06 demanded the audience remember specific things about the '05 program -
-The ending drill sequence which is played back in silence at the beginning,
-the sections of the '05 show resembled by the princess hat, the workman's hat, the umbrella and the suitcase,
-musical themes - from the liquid theme from '05, to parts of "false mirrors" to, the kill bill motif, to the twilight zone
-The mirrored uniforms, changed in '06 to the psychedelic floral print to reflect the overarching visual theme
-The narrative of the '05 program wherein a girl becomes lost in several different worlds, '06 expands upon this to include the psychedelic Alice in Wonderland world which Alice/Danny first finds friends and enjoys, but soon finds that she wishes to go home (in an arc reminiscent of the Wizard of Oz - which is referenced in both the number of friends Alice/Danny meets and also seen in their skipping together at the end of "The Garden")
- The ending drill and musical sequence which on the surface appears to be a rehash of the '05 ending, however with extra musical and visual elements thrown in or adjusted.
Taking all of these into account, the '06 show goes well beyond a simple "part 2" show.
Thus you have the most complex show every put on a marching field (well drum corps show - I'm sure some BOA band out there has an even more involved and complex show design)
The 2006 show had many moments of brilliance, chief among them the hazy, dreamlike drill of the guard in the ballad. What the show lacked overall was staging and dramatic structure and continuity. Too often, the expansive concept took our eyes away from the “action.” A great counterpoint from that year was Cavies who demonstrated (as usual) a remarkable ability to lead our eyes and ears to the right point at the right time.Which is better 2006 or 2008? Based on finals performances, I’m picking 2006, which is a shame because I feel that the unrealized potential in 2008 was greater.
HH
Interesting note about this...Hop always told us back in '06 that the judges kept saying this, saying we didn't draw the focus to anything specifically. Hop had been defending it all year saying that it was silly for the judges to penalize us for having too much effect going on. 'glory' is right that the goal of '06's effect was completely different from the Cavies show which everything was laid out in neat little packages, but I would contend that they merely represent different ways of designing a show and neither is inherently better.
Personally, I believe that criticizing a show for having too much going on is akin to saying that Mahler had too many themes or that his harmonies were too thick for the melody. It is more a matter of taste than an objective criticism.
I would love it if every show was so chocked full of effect that it would take several viewings to see it all. As it is I have seen Cavies '06 once or twice and it was plenty for me, whereas I would love to see PR '08 again and again because there was so much I missed the first time.
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A little biased. but I would take 2006 over 2008 any day.
The '06 show was revolutionary in so many ways. Of course on the surface you have the elements of voice and narration to consider, but the most revolutionary aspect of the show was in the construction and design.
"Vol. 2: Through the Looking Glass" was, and remains today, the most complex show ever put on a football field. The sheer demand put on the audience to just keep up is leagues ahead of anything attempted before or since. The mere fact that it was a sequel to the year before, itself, is shttering to the Drum Corps Show paradigm.
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Does anyone else think the whole idea of judging is silly? I mean it is not like sports where there is a clear winner once time runs out...it seems liek scores are based off the expectations game more than anything. Sure there are judging sheets that are supposedly objective, however everyone knows in the back of their head that it boils down to subjective judgements...
I say the only way Drum corps survives in the future is to get rid of the whole silly notion that shows can be objectively rated and that "better" shows win.
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OK, well perhaps there is some truth to the rumor that, now that I think about it. The '79 SCV guard did stay up until 3AM--maybe later-- to practice and learn the surprise "Bottle Dance" we whipped out just for Finals. This took place in a Holiday Inn meeting room. Imagine the scene!
Could that be what you were referring to?
And over the years there may have been other late nighters, too.
yeah I have heard that story manyatime...
however, The rumor I heard was clearly referring to the entire corps having a normal rehearsal several nights in a row. it was explained to me as the corps "going nocturnal" for a couple days to avoid the heat.
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i should have specified that to my knowledge, that kind of schedule was run during spring training/move-in only
and the more i think about it, it does seem like it was SCV who did this
anyone out there in DCP world who can verify and possibly elaborate...maybe some old Vanguard alum??
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seems like there was a corps who shifted their rehearsal/sleep hours to sleep during the hot part of the day and get up in the afternoon to rehearse music and ensemble then staying out late for visual rehearsal well into the night while it was cool. not sure who it was though
yeah I had heard it was to avoid the heat of the day...
...I wonder how that would affect the corps...seeing as most shows are in the evening, would it be equivalent to waking up in the morning and performing a show?
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Just a random thought I had tonight where I remembered something I heard on tour...
I can't remember specifics, but I have definitely heard it said that back in the day (70s maybe?) SCV would go nocturnal some times and rehearse all night and sleep all day...
...anyone ever heard anything like that or am I just making this up?
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Here it is again: the meme that we're seeing something fundamentally paradigm shifting from the Cadets, and that it belongs in the realm of other misunderstood masterpieces.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think we've seen this every year since 2006 . . .the fact that since the judges aren't giving out 99.15's and the crowd doesn't "get it", that there's just too much for us poor little lizard-brain "I LIKE TEH LOUD" fans to absorb.
If we were in that realm, I think we'd see more analysis that, indeed, the bar had been raised . . .more people expressing their opinions on what they seen and supposedly couldn't process, and so on.
What we do have is something most of us familiar with the marching arts have seen before: a show that's carried by a narrative theme. It's no different than a lot of other shows that have come along in Bands of America's circuit, or elsewhere. The gravitas of the issues cancer raise will never be covered in eleven and a half minutes by relating one persons story as it stands now.
Framing the device in a faux NPR scheme does little to move the chains of design further . . . it only serves as a familiar, comfortable environment that's the furthest thing from creating artistic history. Drum corps remains an art form that borrows from other, more well-known places in culture (excepting some original music shows over the past two decades). There is no artistic revolution in rehashing or riffing on something else, no matter how well you do it.
Star of Indiana 1993 was, indeed, an exploration of human emotion . . .one that encompassed anger, jealousy and several other emotions . . difference being from the story-narrative of now, though . . is one of letting the music and visual do that talking, rather than beating people over the head. While the music was borrowed from Barber and Bartok, the emotional starkness of the uniforms and visual book was not. The emotions you feel from that show aren't ones borne of a narrative cueing device.
Drum corps excels in presenting a big picture of emotions and themes. It does not translate well when it tries to focus on the singular.
Sarah Jones story, if told across the radio waves, might be a powerful elixir . . .because the radio art form (This American Life in particular) makes you consider these stories on their own. No musical interludes, no visual ones. Just the story of a life to consider. . .as you drive down a road, jog down a street, or sit and listen.
See a pattern? Those are all things you do, for the most part, alone. There's a dichotomy between putting Sarah Jones on the field behind music, flags and everything else. It rings hollow, for the emotional weight that George and company are trying to put upon it is lost . . and is only processed on a singular, direct level.
Breast cancer, happiness, love . . .all of these are important things. People (contrary to what the above post seems to say) are more than smart enough to sense that . . .but as there is only a chance to put these out as a framing layer behind music and motion, people also sense the fact that it's being presented in order to try to press certain emotional, theatrical or storytelling buttons.
As to changing the artisitic process within drum corps:
-maybe the Cadets could release a free, extended track with Sarah's conversations about her life prior to the show for those that wanted to drink in the story in its own right.
-perhaps the Cadets pre-show should jump immediately into Sarah's story, without any other competition, in order to try to give it some weight and depth, perhaps even going so far as making her story a narrative that, at every show, is added to. . .so the journey at the end of the season is different than the one at the beginning.
-maybe dropping the NPR pretense totally, and construction of the narrative again . . .from a larger emotional point. No more Sarah Jones, but instead look outside of one person and focus on the larger, big picture of the concept of happiness. No more "I", but more "our". Make that big picture connect with the big visuals and horn book.
All of these look away from the tired, already-done concepts in Bands of America and elsewhere towards making narrative storytelling something more than it is now, and towards a great cohesiveness between storycraft and music/motion.
The Cadets haven't done it yet. They may not be the ones who do end up fundamentally changing things with narration, as electronics are on the horizon, and will offer another emotional crutch for the design staff . . .so we move away from anyone even trying to expand beyond what was cool at BOA or WGI last year.
I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case. . . but, IMO, from about five years of usage so far, the easy way out is what everyone seems to prefer. I don't know why, honestly. Every year I see people post on DCP and elsewhere who have ideas that would truly be experimental in nature to try: shows based on math, shows that change every night, shows that are based on off-the-wall concepts no one has ever tried. . . there's so much that we can do, but so little we actually see done in this regard.
True risk involves a real threat of failure.
Are the Cadets ready for that? Is anyone?
2009 is your move, folks . . .
I agree with Drumcorpsfan (wow, never thought I would say that)...post of the decade....
Maybe the Cadets should go in exhibition the rest of the year. I think a lot of the issues come with the silly "competition" part of the activity. They could then make the show as long as it needed to be showing the proper development of the story. I'm not sure how legitimate it is to put a story like this on in a competitive environment. If the narrative and message are truly important, they should not be distracted by trying to conform with the rules of competition.
Going even further, I believe competition is ultimately holding the activity back. How can you explore these different forms and ideas when you are worrying about impressing some judges? I don't think in the current paradigm we will ever see anything truly revolutionary simply because the risk of loosing is too great. The focus has become beating corps XYZ and not on creating a program that is based solely on its artistic and entertainment value.
Until competition is abolished, or given less importance in Drum Corps, I do not see much changing...
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So corps can't replay charts???
....k
i think he means that corps dont just replay entire shows set for set and note for note, the way that orchestras recreate symphonies...
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Now, are you trying to say that Hopkins and The Cadets are akin to Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Picasso, Monet, or any of the others you have mentioned?
Drum corps is not that kind of art. They come with an annual program, present it a couple dozen times and that's it. It's gone. Poetry is saved on paper. Symphonies can be replayed by orchestras, keeping them alive. Paintings are preserved for centuries for people to see first hand.
Not drum corps performances. A couple dozen performances and it can never be experienced first hand again. So, let's quit putting The Cadets or George Hopkins (or any corps) in the same arena as those perennial greats you have listed.
something I have always thought about is how to make drum corps shows repeatable...I mean there is nothing technically restricting it. Does anyone wanna get together and recreate Cadets 2000??
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With all due respect though, the artform argument is a whole bunch of doo doo. There is little, if anything, in the DC activity that is truly art; '93 Star, '78 SCV, '05 Cadets, '06 Cavies, '72 Argonne - the list goes on..... Innovation and over the top technical productions at times, for sure... Art..... NO!!!
wow...I dont really know where you would draw the line between "art" and "not art", and even then it is entirely subjective, I personally think Cavies '06 was one of the most pedestrian and poorly designed shows of all time, much less an example of high art. I think one could even make the argument that Cavies '06 and Cadets '05-'06 represent the two extreme ideologies that exist in drum corps today. It is kind of a testament to the activity that such fundamentally different shows representing completely opposing styles can win the championship in back to back years.
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I have read many commentaries for the last four years and I find the whole discussion concerning the Cadets rather interesting. I have listened people complain about their production style and how offensive their story-telling is – either through voice over or props. I try to compare this to various art styles and these thoughts come to mind.
Of course Cadets changed drum corp for the better in the early eighties and we have never looked back. Star of Indiana’s wonderful production of Walton’s ‘Belshazar’s Feast’ provided us the nuance and a sublime power of a true art form. Probably their defining moment of neo-contemporary drum corps art was with ‘The Music of Barber and Bartok’ which exposed people to music that they would never had listened to and then they brought it to the Broadway stage for millions more to see. Do we dismiss their efforts because they performed visual music that may have made some people uncomfortable?
Mozart had little acceptance during his life – yet he is considered our most revered composer. Bach was unknown throughout most of Europe, yet he is considered our Baroque giant; Beethoven couldn’t even hear his own music yet he was a master genius; Wagner wrote a 16 hour opera – how’s that for pushing the envelope? Stravinsky’s music started a riot during a performance – how has he changed history? Have you heard Stravinsky’s serialistic music? Is it less valid than Petroushka or Firebird?
Does Piccasso have a place in history? How about Klee, Monet, Chagall, Cezanne, Dali, Warhol, Pollack, Ernst et. al.? Do we dismiss them just because they created art that may have created discomfort? What about our contemporary poets and writers?
Many show themes are created from concepts of chaos, violence, sex and conflict resolution. Where would drum corps be without ‘Spartacus’, ‘West Side Story’ ‘007’ and ‘The Godfather’?
I think that many people dislike the Cadets (especially this year) because their show concepts make them feel uncomfortable – God forbid that may happen at a drum corps show. Don’t want to talk about cancer, death, unhappiness, trying to find yourself – maybe because we all struggle with those same issues and we don’t want to be reminded of our own worries and weaknesses.
All art needs people to push the envelope – for better or for worse. Cadets have been doing that for thirty years.
And what if the Cadets win? Will we have a riot like at the Paris Ballet during the performance of “The Rite of Spring”? It is just my humble opinion that most remarkable and memorable moments in history are not created during moments of mediocrity but rather when people are feeling discomfort. So love them or hate them, the bottom line is that I am proud of those kids – they do not accept mediocrity, they are pushing the envelope and doing it artistically.
most interesting post of the summer...bravo
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So it takes a very special moment to give me goosebumps...no offense to anyone here, but most shows out there dont really do anything for me, so it is really cool when they do...that being said my list is very sparsely populated...
cadets 83 Z pull (I wouldn't be a good cadet if this didn't give me goosebumps)
cadets 87, the entire show...literally, every second is like an orgasm
SCV '87 the opener
star '93 the chord to the end
Cadets '00 - again the entire show esp. the opening hit and the final push
Cadets '02 BWBB - Gettysburg Brass Band Festival early June '02 is the reason I joined the Cadets
Cadets '05 Dancer, and the hit in Liquid (still the absolute loudest thing I have ever heard during the encore at Allentown, if you were there you know)
Cadets '06 Sanvean - obviously a homer pick, but much better than people give credit for
so everyone can name the best moments...how about the moments that aren't mentioned here...
I notice i dont see any 1998 on here? anything special happen in 98? or how about '01?
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you see, that's the problem....they're not the same. Hopkins has been putting on the very finest marching band shows ever, but I buy tickets to see Drum Corps.
I also buy tickets to see opera symphony and ballet, but this (DCI) is entertaining because of what it is, not because it can imitate something else.
Marching band - Lots of people wearing funny uniforms marching around on a field with wind instruments. Also included are marching percussion, color guard, and a stationary front ensemble. May be known to play "Louie, Louie" at times.
Drum Corps - Lots of people wearing funny uniforms , marching around on a a field with slightly fewer wind instruments. Also included are marching percussion, color guard, and a stationary front ensemble. May be known to play "Malaguena" at times.
____
sounds kinda the same to me...
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But the recent Cadets shows are really not anything 'new' in design. Several BOA bands have been doing these types of shows for years, and in my opinion have been doing much, much better (as far as design, not performance) than the Cadets. There are tons of other directions drum corps can go. I want designers to think outside the box. The recent Cadets shows are definitely NOT outside the box. Been done before.
but wait, I thought Drum Corps was completely different from marching band??
[/sarcasm]
Either way, they have never been seen in the drum corps activity before...
not being a jackass, I'm just curious what kind of "out of the box" ideas would you like to see?
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And he also said the same thing to us in 2000. We were originally supposed to do Appalachian Spring, but he had the same thoughts that he had about West Side Story, which is why the corps did the Millenium show instead.
cool cool, He told us he was very close to scraping the whole uniform for 2000 as well (put the corps in street clothes), but he would have lost a major donor in the process, so he shelved the idea.
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As of this post, 2007 is in 4th place. Wow, who would have thought that?
could this be the working of Nixon's "silent majority"?
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Has anyone ever thought that after 25+ years putting on shows, maybe he and some of the design staff aren't contented to throw out the same old stuff every year? Maybe after rehashing the same old Drum Corps show filled with the "Malaguena"s and the "West Side Story"s for a quarter of a century they want to try and expand the activity to see if they can create anything deeper from 11 1/2 minutes. Sure some of the stuff probably wont/doesn't work, but I would rather see a corps do something different than watching a rehash of "Young Person"s guide..." or "Candide" year after year.
Hop once said that one of the reasons he didn't do West Side Story again in 2004 (which was the rumor going into winter camps) was because he knew it would be good. He told us if you know something is going to be good, then why do you even need to do it? What he was getting at is unless there is that risk that it could all come crumbling down, you will become complacent with where you are and what you do. (at least that is what I take out of it)
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Is that the Jethro Tull show? I loved, loved LOVED that show. I thought it ROCKED and was very entertaining. And I voted 82- 2004 cause I loved that era for them.
But at the same token there were "some" aspects of the other shows I liked. Like the horn line that blew me away last year.I liked the Jethro Tull show too, I don't see the problem people had with it.wow, this is the most I have ever seen anyone talk about that show (positive or negative) ever...
Thanks for the kind words...though I feel like that year will be remembered more for the "William Tell" encore piece we did
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I actually prefer anything 2000 and on cadet-wise (except for 04) so I voted for 05-08I disliked 2004 more than I did 2006 (I can't believe I am saying that). Having said that, the 2007 Cadets production was one of my best drum corps experiences in a long time, if not ever. If given a choice though, I would prefer 1984-2001.
Wow, I thought that '04 was just a forgotten show...I didn't think anyone could have a strong opinion of it.
- 2004 Cadets Euphonium
The poll is a *tad bit unfair 8 championships compared to 1, plus we dont really have the perspective on '05-'08 to make any kind of meaningful comparison to what amounts to an entire era in corps history.
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actually, yes...that Garfield would do fine...1983-2004...that Garfield would do nicely...
:lookaround:"Everyone knows rock achieved perfection in 1974...it's a scientific fact!"
-H. Simpson
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You post is a sensitive subject, but I will say this. The Cadets have never had 400 and 500 hundred people trying out for them. I was at auditions following the 02, 03, and 04 seasons (all very fan friendly and straight-up shows) The numbers were no different than what I saw the past 2 years. It's just always been that way. Usually plenty trumpets and drummers, but not a surplus of everything else. Yet they always manage to do just fine, and I dont see that changing anytime soon...
This is the exact thing that I take great pride in being a Cadet. It seems like they barely fill a full hornline every year. They do not have the numbers that the other "top" corps have audition which means that they have to work real friggin hard every year to stay on top (not that ever corps doesn't work hard every year, but talk to someone who marched about the work ethic and reputation of the Cadets and they will tell you).
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Straight leg looks generally bad all around.
sorry,
now that I got that out of my system, I am very interested in drumline movement and how exactly it differs from hornline movement. Not crab stepping, but forwards and backwards...what are some of the techniques they teach you?
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3. Cadets 2004 - Music From the Past.
Living with the past...
though I would love to see someone do a "music from the future" show :)
reminds me of the old mitch hedberg joke...
My friend came up to me and showed me a picture and said "this is a picture of me when I was younger"
...EVER picture of you is when you were younger...
..."heres a picture of me when I was older", whatthefcuk? Where did you get that camera?
drum corps database
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
I tried to start getting something underway last year using "DrumCorpsWiki", however it kind of fizzled out after a little while due to lack of participation
The best way I figure to do it would be to organize information based around show and from there you can cross-reference any data you want to highlight or research...
you can still see the project in progress here at the DrumCorpsWiki: Project Shows
and check out some of the individual pages here
Cadets 2006
Cadets 2004
-joe