prodigital
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Posts posted by prodigital
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I think this paragraph is why you ran into trouble with your earlier thread. Is your complaint about the way that the activity is marketed, or the product on the field? Your previous thread seemed to end up focusing on the latter, largely because many differenty opinions exist as to what is entertaining. Most of the posts in response seemed under the impression that "entertainment" is actually on an upswing. I've read many accounts of people experiencing their first show and having a blast. Maybe you disagree, but I have to profess my doubt that the mainstream appeal of drum corps would truly be broadened by returned to the style of shows we had in the 80's. That's 20 years ago, and I don't think you can encourage drum corps to become more aware of popular culture without recognizing that popular culture has changed drastically over those 20 years as well.
Now, maybe what you had in mind was a return to popular culture, but updated and relevant to the culture of today? That I can understand. Corps could play soundtracks of recent hit movies, or adapt current popular music (Radiohead anyone?). Perhaps you are suggesting that these selections might resonate with a larger audience than using the same wind ensemble literature like Blue Shades over and over again. If this is what you had in mind - or even if it's not - please let me know, and I'd be happy to have the conversation you intended.
I don't think corps need to return to the 80's format, show designs simply need to be recognizable or at the very least catchy. Every song gets heard for the first time, some stick with you, most don't. I personally beleive corps designers need to either use something that is currently popular, or create something that is along the lines of what is popular. It is important to experiment and push the activity, but when show designers go too far too fast, they become no longer relavent to main stream society.
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Going Interactive
There have been many posts regarding what needs to be done to increase the numbers of both Drum Corps fans and marching members. I think I have a possible solution. DCI needs to take a page from the American Idol playbook and get the fans involved with the final results.
Considering that General effect is subjective, why not let fans vote for their favorite corps online and then ACTUALLY incorporate the voting results into the actual general effect scores at semifinals?
Every ticket from every show would have a serial number that would entitle them to ONE, and only one vote on the DCI website. Individual corps would then need to push harder to get more people in the seats. Fans would travel further, go to more shows just to be able to support the corps and cast more votes.
To get these votes Corps would need to put out ever increasingly entertaining shows. More entertaining shows will eventually lead to more interest from outside of the drum corps activity. More interest from the "outside" will lead to more members, more revenue, and a longer life for the activity.
This would also create an interactive environment for the fans where they can track their favorite corps results as votes are gathered over the season. Fans could even help their favorite corps by dragging their friends to a show and having them vote. Exposing new people to the activity is never a bad thing.
Another benefit is that smaller corps that have great shows could get a boost in their semifinal standings.
As a computer programmer, making adjustments to the DCI website would not be a big deal or cost much money. It also would not be a big deal for DCI to distribute tickets with valid serial numbers to the various show promoters to ensure there is no tampering and that everyone that attends a drum corps show, gets the opportunity to vote.
Even if this doesn’t create more interest in the activity, it would be great for the current fans.
I think people are missing the point, this is about putting people in the seats at shows. If current fans round up 3 - 5 friends to get their support for their corps and maybe one of them buys a corps shirt or even likes the activity, is that so bad. If someone travels to 10 shows to support their corps is that bad. This is not one person one vote, this is one ticket one vote. If you have gone to 10 shows, why shouldn't you get 10 votes? And again, this would only be a small percent of the total score. Scoring the brass lines, percussion, and marching will be left up to the actual judges. General effect, which is subjective has room for about 25% fan vote. As far as people having favorites, does anyone thing a judge doesn't have personal feelings?
And then again this only the beginning of an idea. Maybe the vote could be used to determine the semifinals line up?
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I knew that my original post would stir up some strong emotions, but I was surprised by the lack of understanding by some of those that replied to the post.
When I speak of mass appeal, I mean the appeal of drum corps to the Western culture as a whole, not just the drum corps community. If you are a member of the drum corps community you already love what you see and probably find the activity to be incredibly entertaining. However, if you ask someone off of the streets about the activity, chances are you would need to explain what drum corps is to them and that is the problem. Almost no one outside of the activity knows about it.
Today’s society is one of talking points, 3 second sound bites, and sport center highlights. The 10 minute productions that most corps put on the field today, although artistically impressive, unfortunately have a very difficult time finding a place in society as a whole.
I used NASCAR as a comparison because whether or not you like it, you know about it. Not only is Drum Corps more interesting then NASCAR, it is a great activity for the youth and undoubtedly teaches them to be better people. However, NASCAR makes billions each year and continues to grow in popularity.
Well, if you don’t like the NASCAR comparison, let’s try the NFL. Every off-season the NFL’s competition committee meets to discuss how they can make the game more exciting. Over the past twenty years there have been numerous rule changes to make it easier for the offensive units to score, thus increasing the level of excitement each game produces. In the late eighties the NFL figured out that a more exciting game would be good for their product. Now the NFL is the undisputed King of professional sports in terms of revenue and second only to soccer in worldwide popularity.
In the late eighties one could stumble upon the Drum Corps Championships on TV and see the Bridgemen’s snare line wearing blindfolds, the Blue Devils Sopranos screaming a Ferguson tune, the 1812 Overture by Phantom Regiment, or Ballet in Brass by the Scouts. Most of these tunes never made the American Pop-40, but they all had melodies that were catchy and made you tap your feet. The manner in which shows are designed today seem to be less interesting to the drum corps outsider. As someone who knows, and has been a part of the activity, I can understand and appreciate the shows of today. But shouldn’t an attempt to reach out to drum corps outsiders be made?
The life blood of drum corps is the product, the field shows each corps puts out each season. It doesn’t matter how it is packaged, promoted, or presented. If drum corps is to survive, new fans need to be drawn to the activity by what they see on the field. The activity needs to take notice of what is popular in pop-culture and see what changes can be made to push the activity in that direction. Maybe this idea will make drum corps purist sick, but an activity as wonderful as drum corps should not be allowed to slip away.
In short, for Drum Corps to survive, those that design the shows need to be equally aware of pop culture as they are of being artistic. Making minor changes to appease or simply interest the masses (drum corps outsiders) does not make one a sell-out, it make them selfless. It makes them promoters of our activity to the masses.
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I have a simple solution. DCI needs to take a page from the American Idol playbook and get the fans involved with the final results.
Considering that General effect is subjective, why not let fans vote for their favorite corps online and then ACTUALLY incorporate the voting results into the actual general effect scores at semifinals?
Every ticket from every show would have a serial number that would entitle them to ONE, and only one vote on the DCI website. Individual corps would then need to push harder to get more people in the seats. Fans would travel further, go to more shows just to be able to support the corps and cast more votes.
To get these votes Corps would need to put out ever increasingly entertaining shows. More entertaining shows will eventually lead to more interest from outside of the drum corps activity. More interest from the "outside" will lead to more members, more revenue, and a longer life for the activity.
This would also create an interactive environment for the fans where they can track their favorite corps results, even help their favorite corps by dragging friends to a show and having them vote.
Another benefit is that smaller corps that have great shows could get a boost in their semifinal standings.
As a computer programmer, making adjustments to the DCI website would not be a big deal or cost much money. It also would not be a big deal for DCI to distribute tickets with valid serial numbers to the various show promoters to ensure there is no tampering and that everyone that attends a drum corps show, gets the opportunity to vote.
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This is entertaining?
No wonder the activity is on life support, I have yet to see a show that I find mildly interesting.
I have watched the activity from a distance since I stopped marching back in 1990. Since 2000, the shows just get to be more and more boring. Alright, I know this may upset many people because those involved in the activity love it. However, has anyone ever really asked why there is only a handful of corps left?
Most people will say it is because of money or poor management, and I am sure that is true to a point. But I think it has more to do with the fact that today’s corps lacks any real mass appeal.
I think the activity needs to stop catering to itself and start giving the individual corps incentive to put out show designs that people who are not in the activity will enjoy. When is the last time you were at work whistling a tune you heard at a corps show? My guess is it doesn’t happen as much anymore because individual corps are more about effects then actual music.
In short, drum corps that are more universally entertaining will create more interest for the activity as a whole. More interest in the activity means more members and more cash flow. If drum corps is going to survive, it needs to rebuild it fan base first.
If you think I’m wrong, ask yourself this one simple question. Why is it that NASCAR has so many fans and generates so much revenue? Is three hours of left turns more exciting then a drum corps show? The answer is simple, everyone can identify with a car and feel of driving fast. NASCAR capitalized on the one thing most people have experience with, cars. Drum corps can do the same thing with music. If the shows and music are more universally recognized, or simply “catchy”, it will stick with people and find a place in their hearts.
If Drum Corps is to survive, corps need to think about mass appeal.
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but therein lies our disagreement. When you say they aren't getting the "best" efforts from the staff, then I whole-heartedly disagree. Ya, I guess Colin's top 3-5 drumline isn't his "best" effort. You're acting like the Scouts have never had bad show design over the past...ooooooh...30+ years. C'mon...we BOTH know that's not true. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Sometimes you put together the "perfect storm" of a drum corps show (i.e. '95) and sometimes you fizzle out ('01). Does that mean we should be forcasting gloom and doom and crying "woe is me" just because they aren't doing a show that you personally love? Not at all! They Scouts haven't followed one set tradition over their history. Whether it was show tunes, pop tunes, symphonic jazz, big band, latin jazz, classical, etc...it was STILL the Madison Scouts...but they didn't win every single year, so every single design wasn't a homerun. If you think this is a bad show design year, then so be it. That's fine. But even when I really disliked the show (2000, 2001, 2004), I still went to rehearsal and encouraged the guys...I still went to shows and screamed my ### off...I still went to the busses after the show to pat the guys on the back and tell them what heroes I thought they were and how proud of them I was. Not because I thought the show was anything better than a turd laid on the 50, but because that's what they deserved from me.
You're singling out this show...if you think it's bad, that's your opinion to have. But don't be offended when it's not one that I share. Are these the Scouts that I marched with? nope... Are they everything that I wish they would be? Nope... Am I happy with MOST of their choices and direction? An emphatic YES!! Times change friend...
YES, I am singling out one show!! This show will be the last for many of these members and it isn't right! Every member, every year should get the very BEST EFFORTS from that years staff, NO EXCEPTIONS!
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before you get too far ahead of yourself there chief, the BAD thing about having an "all-alum" staff is that you develop a "stagnant pool" of creativity. Let me ask you, what alums in recent memory could put out the drumline that Colin McNutt has churned out in the past 3 years? When was the last time the Scouts drumline even BEAT the Cavies drumline prior to last year?? Or maybe we should go back to the "hey let's pull out the '83 show and do it again" mentality. The thing is, what was great about the '95 or the '97 show is that they were original. They were fresh...fun...new...not what we had seen before. 2000-2002 eh...not so much. Serious turn in '95 that started the gradual (at first) slide out of finals. People knew that the Scouts didn't want to compete. They just wanted to do whatever they wanted to do. Problem is, the kids heard this too, and the talent they were able to draw took a serious nose-dive.
Bottom line, if you're not willing to bring in fresh faces with fresh ideas, then, in the public's eyes, you become "that corps that keeps reliving their glory days over and over". You're basing your impression on 1 show....1 season. I was on tour last summer and I saw plenty of great crowd response for the Scouts. Plenty of "jump out of your seat" reactions. I'm sure they'll do something like that again next year. I suggest that instead of jumping on here and tell them how they're doing everything wrong, you just sit back, shut up, and enjoy the show (or don't). But don't come on here and make the members feel badly seeing that even their older brothers don't support them.
So what you are saying is that I should not expect more from the corps design, that I must keep my mouth shut. I know an "all-alumni" is not the answer, I marched in 1990, believe me I know.
I support the current members and that is why I am upset with the 2006 show, they deserve the very best efforts from the staff and it doesn't appear to me that is what they got this year.
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The staff owe the members nothing, but the staff owes the Board of Directors a winning corps. The members can take it or leave it.
A winning corps will allow the organization to continue, making it more attractive for recruitment and raising.
If the members don't like the program, I'm sure there are hundreds more ready to audition for that spot.
I guess what you say is true, these days it is all about winning to stay alive.
Its too bad that Drum Corps has become an elitist activity, but like you said "I'm sure there are hundreds more ready to audition for that spot."
I guess what you are really saying is that the members truly aren't important, they are replaceable.
If winning is the end-all be-all, why have a corps? Why do it if it is not for the kids, but to win? What is the point?
That is why drum corps is on the decline. The kids are second to the board of directors.
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Madison Scouts 1987 sixth place, 1988 World Champions!
I know it is only six places, but I think making that kind of move among the best corps is pretty amazing
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The answer: NO.
If there were some obligation to be "representative" of past shows, we'd be arguing about degrees of representation. For that matter, if "representative" were required, the Scouts would still be wearing the official Boy Scout uniform and finishing near the bottom of the pack.
What I suspect you're really asking (and pardon me for putting words in your mouth) is: Don't the Scouts have an obligation to me and other alums to reconnect us with the pleasures of our past?
The answer to that is similar to the question you posed above. No. The staff is obliged to provide today's Scouts with precisely what you received. But that has nothing to do with the composition of this year's or any year's show. The staff owes the kids a summer of achievement, progress, friendship and memories. The notes, the drill and the alums are necessary, but ultimately, incidental.
HH
That is not exactly what I meant, but 3 out of the 5 years I marched we played something from earlier Scout shows.
What I meant was that some corps are know for certain styles. Be it the type of music played or style of drill performed, corps have something about their identity which makes them special. If Phantom Regiment were to play a jazz program, would their fans be happy? Would their members?
I didn't mean a corps needs to rehash it's past to death, but if a member joins a corps because of the types of programs he/she has enjoyed over the years, shouldn't that be the "stlye" of program they get to perform?
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I had no idea my comments about the Scouts show ending and staff would touch off this type of response. It is great to see the passion, but the show ending is still bad. And for those that think I was bashing the corps, not true. My comment was aimed at the staff and staff only. From watching them practice, those kids have amazing talent.
I wrote my initial post after seeing the new ending and because I was not happy with what I saw I may have been unfair to my Brothers. However, the responses to my original post got me thinking.
What are the responsibilities of the staff to the marching members?
What I mean is this: If you grow up a fan of the Madison Scouts, loving what you see on and off the field, and you work hard to become a member, does the staff have a responsibility to the members to design a show that is in some way representative of past show shows?
Example: I would not join the Blue Devils expecting to play a classical music, I would expect to play jazz.
Obviously it is good to change and evolve, but can too much change from one year to the next be unfair to those marching members that were expecting something different?
B Gregg, Madison Scouts 1986-90
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In 1982, they talked to us about the Madison Darth Vader look during rehearsals and before shows. Should that have been disheartening?
What is the Scouts' style? Is it the Scouts from the '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s or your five years that you'd like to see? The current members "signed up" for modern drum corps performed by the Madison Scouts. I think what is inside the uniform is far more important than what is performed in any show during any era.
I respect your opinion, Brian. I just think it stinks.
Keep in mind that this is not an official opinion of anyone but me.
MYNWA
(From a 1982 Madison Scout who did drum corps different than they did in 1986 - 1990.)
When you said "they talked to you about the darth vader look" I can only assume you meant the staff. So no, it should have not been disheartening because that came from your brothers that marched before you.
The scout style is what the corps creates based off of it's own history. The 1982 mantality was learned from the members before you just as the 1986 mantality was learned form you. Each corps learns something from its past and then changes it on its own. The corps style comes from within and is always changing, but it is a change based on what we learned form our brothers before us.
I simply believe the talent within the corps is as good if not better then any freelance designer can provide.
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Take a moment to review the 1990 Madison Scouts show. I marched that year and it was because of the staffs attitude I did not march my age-out year.
After the third week of the 1990 season the staff was already planning for the 1991 show of City of Angels. We were getting slammed in Drum Corps World, nobody liked the show, and as a member I felt betrayed because the staff was doing little to improve the show because they were all in love with the City of Angels for 1991.
I don't want any marching member to feel what I felt in 1990 and that is why I point out that it is the staffs fault for this poorly designed show. Maybe you don't like my comments, but as a Scout I placed as low as 9th at finals and I also have a Championship Ring! I know what good show design can do, and what poor design can do. And sad fact is that most people see the members as putting on a bad show when in truth it is the designs team waste of super talent by their design.
I will always be a Madison Scout and as such I will hold the corps to a higher standard.
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I know Sal Salas marched with the Scouts and maybe his alumni status should get revoked. Well.... no thats not fair of me, he seems like he is a good man.
When I marched it was unthinkable to have someone on staff that was not an alumni and considering the corps has two World Championships under that school of thought, it is not a terrible way of doing things. Most of the boys that join the Scouts leave as very talented men and are more then capable to be on both the design teams and technical staffs. They pass on the "first hand experiences" to the current members and that is what I believed made the Scouts special.
I know there are alums on the staff, but the design team has non-alums that is changing what feel of the Madison Scouts.
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As a former Madison Scout alumnus, Lead Baritone/Euphonium 1986-90, I was left seriously disappointed by the new ending to the Scouts 2006 field show. Apparently it is no longer the goal of the corps to have people standing on their feet going wild from the Madison experience. The new goal must be to leave the fans sitting on their butts, scratching their heads, and thinking “What the #### was that?”
The last minute of the show is a combination of open-ended musical phrases and meaningless drill motion. The sound is hollow, emotionless, and makes little sense with what is happening visually. Believe me; I am being kind when I say the ending stinks.
Watching the rehearsal in Greenfield WI, it is obvious that the corps has immense talent and a great group of kids, but what the design team has pulled with this year’s production is not fair to the members.
Over and over I listened to the staff tell the members to use their Madison Scout “Mo-Jo.” I personally find it disheartening to hear that the staff remind the members of who they are since it seems to me that the staff has no idea what it is to be a Madison Scout.
The Madison Scouts were at one time the ultimate “IN YOUR FACE CORPS, THE PEOPLES CHAMPIONS.” The Madison Scouts were taught by Scouts and had a true sense of identity. Now there is a staff in place that is more worried about being artistic then being Madison.
The kids that join the Scouts are there because of what they learned from the Scouts history, they wanted to be what they saw from the Scouts. To have the design team abandon the Scouts style for their own artistic interpretation is creating something for the members they did not sign-up for and it is not fair to the members or the fans.
I believe it is important to push the envelop artistically, but people expect to see a Scouts show that will make scream for more.
Maybe I am old-fashioned and too simplistic for today’s drum corps, but I do know what I like and what I saw from the Scouts at Thursday night’s rehearsal stunk! The design team should be fired for killing the Madison Scouts.
Brian Gregg, Madison Scouts Alumnus, 1986-90
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To all those interested in FREE Pictures:
I have photographs from the 2004 Drums on Parade show in Madison Wisconsin of the Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, and Madison Scouts.
These photographs are free to anyone that wishes to download them!
The photographs can be viewed at:
http://prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
Please enjoy the pictures.
Thank-you for your time,
Brian Gregg
Prodigital Photography
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How about the end of 1984 Garfield Cadets West Side Story show in WHitewater, WI? The final S-pull where a Soprano fell down starting a domino effect with 4-5 other sops falling right on top of him!
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To all those interested:
This is the last time I will be offering the photogrpahs of the 2004 Madison Scouts, Phantom Regiment, and Cavaliers.
These pictures are free to view and download. And yes, I did receive permission from DCI in early spring to display these photogrpahs.
This is simply my chance to give something back. If you like these pictures or know anyone in the pictures, please pass the word.
To view these pictures go to:
http://prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
As of August 31, 2005 these pictures will be dropped from my website and no longer made available to the public.
I hope you enjoy!
Brian Gregg
Madison Scouts 1986-90
Baritone
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I undersatnd how listening to complainers can grow tiresome. but please try to keep things in perspective.
Many of those that do not like the changes in DCI are from a time when the activity was much more simple than it is today. Drum Corps was at one time about the kids and those wishing to remain kids at heart. Now with corprate involvement the activity does have a slightly different feel to it. Corps have actual management teams these days. Back when I marched it was all the parents making it happen. Now it is much more complicated to operate a world-class unit and the price of that seems to be that Mom and Pop feel that most corps had in the early 80's.
People complain because they love the activity and just want it to be the way it was when they were either marching, teaching, or volunteering. I think back to 1988 when I got my Ring with the Scouts and can see how much the activity has changed. To be honest I do not like the feel of the activity today, but I am very different at 35 then I was at 18.
It is all about perspective! A persons view of the activity will be different at 18 or when they have a hand in the creative process then it will be when they are in their 30's and have been away for awhile. NEVER tell anyone to leave the activity! Afterall, people make threats about leaving only when the actually care about something. If they didn't care, you would have never heard from them.
These are lean time times for the activity and everyone is needed! As for you statement that DCI corps have to cut kids due in part to the strength of the activity, get a grip on reality. Kids get cut becasue there are fewer corps these days. ####, at the 1986 Drum Corp MIDWEST Championships (for midwest corps only) There were 53 corps that competed and the show took 2 days to complete!
My point is simple! Let people complain! Be happy that they are complaining! People complain when they care and the activity needs everyone they can get!
Brian Gregg
Madison Scouts 1986-90 Eupho/ Lead Baritone
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To all those interested:
I have photographs from the 2004 Drums on Parade show in Madison Wisconsin of the Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, Madison Scouts, and preshow warm-ups.
Although these Photographs are free to view over the internet, they are not printable or downloadable. A Picture-CD containing all 386 photographs is available for purchase through my website.
The photographs can be viewed at:
http://prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
Please enjoy viewing the pictures.
Thank-you for your time,
Brian Gregg
Prodigital Photography
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To all those interested:
I have photographs from the field shows of the Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, and Madison Scouts from the 2004 Season.
These photos are free to view and if you wish to download or print them; a cd-rom including all photographs can be purchased.
To view thes photos please go to:
http://prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
Thank-you for your time,
Brian Gregg
Prodigital Photography
-
To all those interested:
I have photographs from the field shows of the Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, and Madison Scouts from the 2004 Season.
These photos are free to view and if you wish to download or print them; a cd-rom can be purchased.
To view thes photos please go to:
http://prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
Thank-you for your time,
Brian Gregg
Prodigital Photography
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To all those that are interested:
I have 368 photographs from the 2004 Drum Corps season of the Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, and Madison Scouts.
The pictures were taken at the Drums on Parade Show in Madison Wisconsin on July 02, 2004. The pictures are free to view via internet and can be purchased if desired.
To view these pictures please go to:
http://www.prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
If you have any questions or comments please contact me via my website.
Thank-you,
Brian Gregg
Prodigital Photography
website: www.prodigitalphoto.org
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To all those that are interested:
I have 368 photographs from the 2004 Drum Corps season of the Cavaliers, Phantom Regiment, and Madison Scouts.
The pictures were taken at the Drums on Parade Show in Madison Wisconsin on July 02, 2004. The pictures are free to view via internet and can be purchased if desired.
To view these pictures please go to:
http://www.prodigitalphoto.org/MadisonScouts.html
If you have any questions or comments please contact me via my website.
Thank-you,
Brian Gregg
Prodigital Photography
website: www.prodigitalphoto.org
Question about the 2007 Madison Scouts
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Question about the 2007 Madison Scouts
I heard from a friend, who is also a Scout Alumni that this years the members had to sign some sort of conduct contract. This contract supposedly requires the members to abstain from both drinking and smoking while on tour.
OK, I know that most marching members can’t legally drink and that smoking isn’t good for you, but does anyone know if this is true?
Brian G.