[Inside the Arc - "The Dut Must Die"]

Here's my point of view on the whole thing as a current percussion instructor in a drum corps style high school marching program, as well as a performing drum set player.

That article's point about the overuse and abuse of the metronome is dead on. The art of the groove is dying pretty quickly because we are asking students to be robotic and not allow the music to breath. If you listen to some of the greatest recordings in history all the way to the end, and then track back to the beginning, you'll find variances (sometimes drastic) in tempo from where they started. Don't believe me? Go check out "Pursuance" from John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme". Nobody on this earth would say that Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner, and Jimmy Garrison weren't swinging on that track, but the tempo gets about 10-20 clicks faster. Nobody cares. Its one of the most epic recordings in the history of jazz, and nobody cares that it got faster.

That said, the point about 7 drummers not being able to come in together and hold silent time together proving that they are not a cohesive ensemble is ridiculous. Even the best of musicians use tools to make sure that they are feeling the time in the same place. Look at any string quartet worth their salt, and you'll see that they sit facing each other so that they can communicate. That is kind of the point of the whole thing right? Music is communication. Well, that's exactly what the duts are. They are a way for the drumline to communicate, and be sure that they are on the same page before they enter.

To those who would argue that groups made it happen before the advent of duts, my point is this. This is not the same activity it was 30 years ago. 30 Years ago, every member of the ensemble could rely on the conductor to stay together because their drill did not take them outside the 35, and they were always stacked from top to bottom, with fairly consistent listening environments. The way the music was written was also different. There were fewer points in time where the drums were not playing. Let's not forget that we do not perform in a concert hall where everyone is close enough to a conductor to follow him.

With the advent of asymmetrical drill, the drum major slowly stopped being the one responsible for keeping the ensemble together. For a while, the drumline was always in charge, as even as drill developed, it was rare for the drumline to move too far from the back and center of the field. As things have evolved, we currently end up with several different approaches to keeping the ensemble together. The way I teach relies on finding a section or voice within the ensemble that is easy to follow, and near the back and center of the field. That line in the music becomes the listening center, and everyone in the band follows it. Often times that is the drumline, but sometimes it is not. With all of those different time responsibilities, and the constant adjustment of the time as you move closer and farther away from the focal point of the ensemble, you find yourself in the situation of trying to ask several people to interpret the amount of delay the exact same way in order to make an entrance. Even the best of musicians would find that hard without some way to communicate it with each other. If you are marching together in a line, then you cannot see each other well enough to use some sort of visual communication so it has to become verbal. Hence the advent of the "dut". By having a lead player communicate verbally where he is interpreting the time, then even if that individual is wrong, the section has no excuse not to come in together.

Now, as for the "everyone should have good time" argument, see the comments above about the overuse of the metronome. Take your pick. Either we all need to have a robotic approach to time, with absolutely no room for interpretation, and thus sacrifice any sense of musicality we might have, or the music can be musical. You can't have it both ways. If you use a metronome well, you should be able to play with a click track and still make music. The poster that mentioned recording techniques of the last few decades has a point, however, playing ahead or behind to the exact microsecond is an extremely advanced concept that even the greatest musicians in the world took a long time to learn how to do. Do you really think every member of a drum corps, at the age of 21 is going to be able to do that as well as the next guy standing next to him? Keep in mind, not every member of the corps is even a music major, much less aspiring to be a professional performer. Then filter that down to high school marching bands, where 95% of the kids will not play in college, much less minor or even major in music. You can expect a band of contracted professional musicians to be able to do these things, but the fact is, as advanced as MM's are, they are still students.

Now, with all of that being said, do I think "duts" should be used as a hype tool? No. Do I think the audience should be able to hear them? No. Occasionally, these things bleed through. It happens. These days it seems to happen a lot, mostly because people misinterpret why we use them. However, to say that musicians who are running around a football field, trying to fight against the weight of 30 lbs of drums to keep their feet in time while moving at gigantic step sizes should all be able to silently keep time and come in together within a fraction of a second is simply unrealistic.

So to those who think verbal communication of the time in current marching and listening environments is a crutch, I challenge you to go show us how its done. Go ahead and march the drill these guys are marching, and play the music they are playing without a single opportunity to communicate with your section and see how consistent and clean your entrances are. In the mean time, I'll continue to teach my students how communicate and listen to each other as that is the most important skill you can learn as a musician.

Raising some interesting points about the interpretation of time. I once had a student who came in late on an attack. Asked why it was late and he said, "I was feeling it later than that." I reminded him that feeling your way around is something you do when you're blind.

Players can learn to agree on silent time without audible or visual cues if they try. But, why make the effort when you can just listen to the dut? One of my favorite practice drills is to have players stand at a distance of 10-20 feet between with everyone facing away from everyone else. Start playing and see what happens, no conductor, no duts. When players can do that together, they'll be dangerous.

Movement definitely interferes, so if they need a few duts, why not just write them in and have one guy play it? I think drummers are just into the bravado of dutting.

And yes, if students are going to have to rehearse with a click, then I think students should learn how to play humanly with it. It's not measuring microseconds. It's learning how to feel the music in relation to consistent time. Making it feel like it's forging ahead (rushing) when it's not, or making it feel like it's laying back when it's actually right on the money. That's just an element of good musicianship. Or they can rush it like Coltrane. Will that sound good? Maybe if it's Coltrane.

Aside from odd tempo changes and insane movement, the time of the next note is determined by those that came before it. When everyone fully gets that concept, the rest takes care of itself. It's measuring more than interpreting. When our "interpretation" of that measurement agrees, we are together. People are way better at measuring time than they give themselves credit for. But, it needs to be cultivated.

[Inside the Arc - "The Dut Must Die"]

Duts #### me off. But, just try convincing my high school line that they suck. They imitate what they see at DCI and think they sound/look cool doing it. I try to explain it's just a lame crutch and real musicians don't need duts because they COUNT INTERNALLY, but to no avail.

There is not a single situation where duts can replace solid internal counting and timing. If 7 drummers standing right next to each other can't count silently together and need one guy to dut just so they can hit an attack, then they aren't a very cohesive line, or their time just sucks. If the horn player 20 yds away is timing off the same duts, they won't attack together. It also means the musicians are focusing their perception of time externally and neglecting their internal clock. Everyone has a heart beat. If you didn't have great natural time you would be dead. But learning to control that takes effort. You can make the effort or have someone else do it for you. (this is what I tell my students anyway...)

As for Dr. Beat... Dr. Beat gave me a lobotomy. Problem is... 90%+ of the music we hear in public today was created with a click track. If you have any hope of working as a professional musician (aside from live orchestra work), you MUST be able to play well with a click. But here's the thing... An experienced musician knows how to play AROUND the click, not only on the beat but slightly before or after it depending on the style of music. The click is not meant to be a slave driver or groove spoiler, but rather a guide or map to where the theoretical beat really is. SOME OF THE GROOVIEST MUSIC YOU'VE EVER HEARD WAS MADE WITH A CLICK TRACK. It's been that way since the late 60's. But, when Dr Beat starts hitting your robotic phrasing button, it's time to learn how to use it instead of it using you.

[Starting a kid on Multi-Tenor]

What he said ^. The stickings for triples are totally different than quads. It's a different skill set, drum to drum slides replacing the crossovers used on trips.

[After reading quite a bit....]

if it comes down to just moms and dads following drum corps, we're in real trouble

It's almost there. Moms and Dads appear to be a very large part of the audience.

Reading a lot of about marketing and advertising here. This is an electronic media age, and drum corps does not translate very well to speakers and screens. There's no replacement for the physical sound of a powerful drum corps. And seeing hugely complex movements on a tv screen doesn't capture the impressiveness of it. So, media advertising is great for letting people know an event is happening, IF they already have some idea what to really expect from a drum corps.

The best marketing tool is the corps itself, live, in your face. How many of us first got hooked on it not because of a recording or tv spot, but by sitting in front of one? Drum corps has avoided most parades, mall openings, playing in the park, in favor of putting more time into the competitive show. History has shown that the corps that devotes their time to perfecting the competitive show is more likely to survive and prosper, as an individual organization. But, as the individual organization thrives, the activity crawls deeper into a hole that no one outside the marching world can see.

It's easy to say that playing in the park doesn't make money. But, that is a misunderstanding. The general public doesn't know who you are. They have no way to find out. Media doesn't do justice in conveying the impact of a great drum corps. So the only remaining way to properly introduce a new fan is to physically go to them and show them what they are missing. A concert in the park might not make money that day, but it creates new ticket buyers, new buyers of t-shirts, DVDs, etc. It finds the new fan. It might only be 1 in 10 or 20 who takes a real interest, but that 1 brings a friend, who brings a friend, etc. Over time it can grow.

Drum corps has cloistered itself in the marching band world. And like marching bands, they don't think of performing in public as a means of survival, not just for the money but for the greater exposure. If no one knows about a marching band, it will continue to exist because the school continues. But if no one knows about drum corps, it can't last.

[Corps Directors]

I doubt that most members (youth) within these corps would say they arent being served, or arent being educated.

What youre REALLY saying is 'arent serving youth of a specific type (most notably lower incomes which is almost un-preventable due to the massive increases in fuel costs) i think they should be serving instead'.

If that was what I was really saying, then that is what I would have said. But it's not and I didn't. I'm saying that DCI generally serves a very selective/selected group of kids. The demographics of DCI do not come anywhere near matching the demographics of the country as a whole. For the good of DCI and of kids, my suggestion is that some effort be made to reach those who are not currently being served. If you think that's a bad thing, then I respect your right to your opinion. But, please don't put words in my mouth. This is not a discussion about income. While I do believe that reaching out to provide more opportunities for lower income families is a good thing, this discussion is about diversity.

It is fair to say that DCI is not in step with the rest of the country regarding diversity. Statistics bear that out quite clearly. Obviously, some here (far more than I would have expected) think that is a good thing, or at least that the status quo is just fine. I'm not sure why, and frankly I'm ashamed at some of the responses to this thread. If we want drum corps to grow (and I think most of us do), then something should be done to allow and encourage more people of all kinds to participate. Greater diversity - economic, racial, and gender based - would be an appropriate and positive step in that direction. Corps directors might even see a few new funding sources open up because of it. But, this possibility doesn't seem to be remotely on the radar of DCI's leadership. Saxophones are apparently of greater importance. That is their answer to the problem of relevance. Go figure. It all just seems very narrow and short sighted to me.

Again, I do not suggest any kind of mandate, affirmative action, kind of thing. But, if we want to see drum corps grow beyond it's "niche", then meeting people half way is in the best interest of the activity. There are many ways to do that. Greater diversity is just one of them. But, keeping heads in the sand while the ship slowly sinks isn't going to serve anyone. It hasn't worked for the last 30 years and it won't work tomorrow. I think the mandate for drum corps today is, and this is one of the few times I agree with Mr. Hopkins, change or die. He thinks change to the shows will make a difference. I don't. People don't care what you play or how you play it. They care what you DO and how it benefits them. If you want people to care about drum corps, start benefiting those people and see what happens.

[Corps Directors]

I'm glad to see this issue discussed. As a member. I saw no racism at all. People were very open to any person of any race or gender just because they were into drum corps and we all had that in common. But, the OP brings up a good observation. I don't think that diversity should be mandated in the sense that a certain percentage of corps directors should be female or of a minority. But their absence from those ranks points to a larger problem. DRUM CORPS DOES NOT SERVE AMERICA AS A WHOLE.

Directors wonder what they can do to be more relevant. Well here it is folks. If you want to be seen as relevant to the larger community, you have to do something relevant for that community. Drum corps used to do that and they generally don't anymore. In my opinion, for whatever reason, individual drum corps have placed far too much emphasis on winning/making finals rather than how they serve youth.

I expect that if the percentage of female and minority membership was greater, then there would be a greater likelihood of those people ascending through the ranks to be directors. Perhaps it's time to fix it, to reach out to people other than white males and find out why more don't join. Then, actually do something about it.

You can poo poo that statement all you want and say everything is fine. But as drum corps dies (even the top corps directors see the writing on the wall) this might be a good time to take a look in the mirror and ask - What have we done today for the greater good of all Americans?

[Questions for the Dinos!]

What were corps being regularly penalized for, that they were unable or unwilling to fix?

An equipment drop such as a rifle, flag, hat or a drum stick was a penalty. Rifle drops were fairly common because of difficult tosses. One famous drop cost Phantom a championship in 78 (obviously there were other tick errors so that's not really true but it appeared that way). On horns up there were sometimes mouthpieces flying out from the force of the snap and if it hit the ground it was a tenth (and a quarter to the horn instructor if it happened in rehearsal). There were also occasional steps over the front sideline. And time in motion was often calculated to the second in show design, so if tempos got a little faster or slower than usual (in concert) time in motion could come up a few seconds short when the gun went off.

[Questions for the Dinos!]

Here is what I remember about the "pit".

1978 Kilties were the first to use concert tympani. I do not think there was a rule against grounded instruments. There was a rule against wheels on the field. The Kilties rolled the tympani out and then removed the wheels. I know Guardsmen used some concert percussion in 1979, but I can not remember if they had wheels or not. I am also not sure when the "wheel" rule was eliminated.

Before 1982 (I think) all concert percussion instruments where on the field. That's when the actual "pit" was created.

Indeed there was a rule against grounded instruments. Corps that did it took a penalty. Grounding during concert was allowed. Kilties did it because they didn't have enough players and felt the penalty would be offset by a better GE score for having tympani versus not having them. (I was the melodic perc instructor for Blue Stars in 80 and 81 and had to learn the rule book.)

[Questions for the Dinos!]

In 81 the grounding penalty for a keyboard was only .1, so a few corps went ahead and grounded them. In 82 the penalty was lifted.

[Questions for the Dinos!]

4. What was the first year pit was on the sideline?

6. What was the horn line size (on average)?

7. How are most of the hornlines and marching percussion so darn loud?

4. Up until 1980 grounding of equipment was only allowed during "stop" time (9 minutes of the show had to be in motion). In 1980 only tympani only were allowed to be grounded for the whole show. Other instruments were grounded in 1982.

6. The "ideal" size was 64 but most averaged in the upper 50's.

7. Not all corps "overblew" for volume. Blue Stars brass instructor Don Hill (among others) was emphatic about not overblowing. Drums were larger and tuned lower. This allowed the heads to move more air. More air = more volume.

Rarrrrrr.

[DCW article regarding touring . . .]

And symphony orchestras should become soup kitchens, and art museums should become homeless shelters.

And all the people who adored Madison this year for their more traditional approach to drum corps -- they weren't talking about their style but about their work helping disadvantaged youth?

OK, more elitist nonsense and not seeing the forest through the trees. Mainstream society doesn't care what Madison played this year and they never will.

[DCW article regarding touring . . .]

“Can we figure out how to become what Dave Gibbs [executive director of the Blue Devils] would call ‘relevant?’ Can we figure out how to be relevant again to a large enough community that they’ll be willing to support us?” he said. “Is it enough to go out there and do the shows that we do now or do we have to have a corps be more interesting? Do we have to have something in the pre-show? Do we have to have a post-show or special encores that are fun?"

This is precisely where the leadership has lost it's way. Drum corps is entirely irrelevant as an entertainment medium. But, that is all they look for, ways to make people pay attention to their "art," their shows. It's ego driven. Look what *I* can do! ($1 to Stuart) Add all the bells and whistles you want. Mainstream America will not warm to drum corps shows no matter how great they are. But, they WILL warm to helping kids in need.

I work and volunteer at a high school in gangland south central Los Angeles. Those kids NEED things like drum corps. They WANT things like drum corps. I even considered starting a corps there, but decided it was impossible to do with any success. There was no place for them to perform that didn't require million dollar budgets to be respectable. (City Sound is still trying and kudos to them!) Those kids have enough self esteem problems without sharing a field with BD.

If Dave Gibbs wants to be relevant, he should turn his attention to the hundreds of thousands of kids across the country who really need him, the kids he and others have abandoned for the sake of personal glory.

There was a time when drum corps was very relevant to the community, not for the shows they did, but for the service they provided to youth at risk. That sells tickets. That garners donations. That gets you on PBS and CNN. That earns respect in the eyes of the community at large.

Come on, Dave... Have you got the nuts to stand up and make the world a better place? Or would that cut too hard into your endorsement deals?

[DCW article on fixing the tour model . . .]

“Ultimately, do we want to start a youth program that by definition excludes roughly half of the members who play wind instruments in a school -- that being woodwind players?”

This is a great illustration of the cloistered perspective of DCI leadership. By extension we could make the same argument for violinists or soccer players or ice skaters. Why should they be excluded? Band directors will naturally think like band directors. And this statement shows that they aren't even thinking as broader musicians (not even as orchestra directors), only as band directors, and that's a dreadfully limited perspective.

The leaders of my day were youth activity directors and music was simply a vehicle to that end.

School has nothing to do with it. Drum corps isn't school and shouldn't be. Sure, you learn things. But, one of the elements that drew me to drum corps was that it WASN'T school. Kids need activities other than school. It's supposed to be FUN at the same time that you hopefully grow as a person, not as a music ed major. Yes, I became a music ed major and followed a career in music as a performer. Drum corps participation surely had a hand in that. But, when I left school in May, I wasn't going to another school for the summer, I was having fun with a drum corps and building some chops. We would work hard at something fun and if we won some shows, great, if not, who cares?

If the focus was more on the KID experience, a great summer, rather than preparation for a future in marching band directing (it doesn't even really fall under the broader terms of music education), there might be a few more who might want to be a part of it. The overall quality of players wouldn't be as high, but if the point was anything other than chasing a championship, would that really matter?

[Snare tilt]

Wish we had some more old school rudimental drummers on this site who could see where I"m coming from. The number 1 problem with right hand/arm position on tilt is where the elbow is in relationship to your body. If it's in the right position, your hands will be on level plane with the head.

Yes, there are rudimental drummers who use their elbow in a pivot motion to in order to extend stamina on long roll patterns. There are always different techniques/tricks that can be used ..... that said, very few drumlines use identical technique .. so bagging on my comment makes your statement look pretty silly.

You might not think which joints in your arm you're using the most on different rudiments just because you've been doing it for so long. You might not notice the difference in arm movement ... or different ways to use the arm movement at different dynamic levels. And, because so few teach specific usage in their book .. it always looks sloppy (total lack of uniformity).

Some caption heads don't care so much about total uniformity so long as the lines play clean. On the other hand, if a line doesn't use the same motion, stick heights, stroke force ....... it will never be truly clean. Am I making so much sense that it doesn't make sense?

Well, let's see, I started as a rudimental drummer in 1972. Is that old skool enough?

Unless you are playing at monkey stroke heights (15"+), the arm/elbow is not (or at least shouldn't be) a big factor in the stroke. Although it is somewhat responsive, it is best used at a minimum. And having the wrist and palm at a perfect horizontal is actually an UN-natural position. The forearm/wrist hangs naturally at an angle of about 10-15 degrees, so a tilted drum actually allows the right hand to play at a more physiologically natural angle. So, not sure where you're coming from on all this. Any technique can be performed uniformly or sloppily depending on how clearly it's defined and how well it's executed. No particular technical style is inherently sloppy or clean.

Can't speak for other guys on the board, but I think about joints and arm/wrist/finger movement for a living. I notice and correct differences from player to player for a living. I'm a percussion technician and play and teach drums (and many other percussion instruments) for a living, been doing that for about 30 years. And when you start making sense I'll be the first to agree with you. Am I really the one looking silly? LOL

[Snare tilt]

Funny, all the talk about how it looks sloppy and whatnot .. yet I addressed that several pages ago and NOBODY wants to tackle the right arm issue.

Me: Trumpet Player by trade although I've taught several drumlines and do have some mad skills with the wood and skin ... but I've never marched in a line ........ period.

The best hands man I know is Rich Hogan. We had many many discussions about tilt, arm positions, usage of different joints depending on the rudiment and combinations of rudiments ...... usage of arm/elbow/whatever .. when, how and why.

So how many people who have commented on this thread are actually marching drummers/instructors??

How many of those people have ever learned more than 2 different approaches to playing technique?

How many of them have any idea what I'm talking about with regards to arm position on the right arm?

Dude, ??? I just looked back thru this thread 3 times trying to figure out what you are talking about. Or is this a joke and I missed it?

To answer your questions... I marched 9+ years, currently teach a high school WGI line. Learned more techniques than I can remember. But the arm position on the right arm? Ya lost me...

Hmm, "...usage of different joints depending on the rudiment and combinations of rudiments..." Spoken like a true horn player! LOL I feel for the drum lines you've "taught." Quick! Get the sticks out of this guys hands before someone gets hurt!

(I tease... but really, somebody grab his sticks LOL)

[You know you're a "Fossil"...]

White bucks

Gut snares

Silk blouses with ascots

DC10's

Swallowtail flags

Grounding penalties

Prism tape

Butter sandwiches on wonder bread (not peanut butter, just butter!)

Sleeping in the overhead rack

Sleeping in the bus toilet

Sleeping standing up

Sleeping under the seats

I can still sleep anywhere, any time. In fact, just getting on a bus, any bus, makes me sleepy.

- good times

[Snare tilt]

oh man, I always knew you were weird ...

Hey, what's wrong with reverse traditional grip? Equal rights! (or is that lefts?) You guys should all have to switch for a year.

[Snare tilt]

There are only two reasons for trad grip in a snare line: 1)...

Actually I've known a few good snare techs who think that the whipping action of the left hand in trad grip helps compensate for the weaker left hand and produces a more even sound. Have to agree there is a little sense to that. Although I'm left handed so... who knows.

[Snare tilt]

I'll jump on the bandwagon. I understand the idea of tilting the snares but it really doesn't help the player at all and it looks terrible - and sloppy.

Depends on the height of the drum on the body. Left hand rim shots, for instance, are difficult on a flat drum, giving rise to a "palm up" left hand technique, which really isn't traditional grip in the textbook sense. For traditional grip to have full power, the left palm should be almost vertical when it strikes the drum and it's pretty hard to do a rim shot that way on a flat drum unless it's carried high. Wish I had a nickle for every high school player I've had to re-teach to get a good left hand sound because they think the technique is palm up.

[Why the WS Theory is So Bad]

While you have many good points, I have to point a finger at ourselves, the children of DCI. We went out and taught marching bands how to be little drum corps. And then we wonder why the line has blurred so. Drum corps has become marching band because marching band has become drum corps. Seeing that final meeting of 2 distinct idioms is sad, but we did it to ourselves.

[Tis a Gift to be Simple]

Of course there were exceptions. But there was a window in time when a corps with $20 unis could compete head to head with a money corps. But, that was fading already as I was part of it.

Unis like Garfield and Belleville were holdovers from the 50's/60's and I'm thinking mostly of the mid 70's when drum corps was coming into it's own. And carrying chimes on a keyboard for the sake of a few tenths in GE was silly and the exception not the rule. But, it all came down to trying to milk a few extra tenths in GE, just as it continues today.

I remember a particular corps director saying, essentially... *You have to win. Because, if you win, you can control the game and keep winning. If you lose, you fold.* That was news to me at the time, but he was right (and that philosophy has served his corps well). But, things got less fun after hearing that.

I don't hate modern drum corps. The performances are seriously amazing. Even when I don't care for the content or approach, they are always well performed. But, drum corps is big in the head and it has been for a long time (see G7 among other things).

I just appreciate an environment where if you had some horns and drums, a truck and some good teachers, you could build a corps and maybe even be competitive.

The old days weren't always great, but the philosophy was different and I liked it.

It was a gift to be part of that time.

[Tis a Gift to be Simple]

Efficiency... it's one of the things that drew me to drum corps. And it's been totally lost for the sake of pseudo show biz.

Some of my favorite uniforms were just a shirt and pants with a few ornaments attached, Madison, Blue Stars, old Crossmen with the capes, even Rochester Phoenix with their JC Penny unis. This was while bands were wearing wool blazers with vinyl overlays and big poofy hats. I was glad those uni companies didn't make MY uniform. Call me crazy, but to me, that was special. It was cool, comfortable, cheap, and made sense.

Carrying everything you play, so the corps can play with a full compliment anywhere, any time. Yes there was a trade off in what you could do with it, but that was part of the fun of the game, doing more with less. We weren't out to make a masterpiece, we did it for fun.

A marching/movement style that was casual and comfortable, not contrived, and didn't cause injuries every other night. Bands did all kinds of goofy things with their feet and we were proud to be cooler than that. Now I look at certain corps/players who take the whole rolling foot thing to the extreme or move bolt neck style with locked knees and they look as silly as the old marching bands did.

Horns that could be played with your thumbs like a monkey, so almost anyone with a pucker could join. In a key that allowed even high school players to sound a little like Maynard.

These are things I miss.

Tis a gift to be simple.

Tis a gift to find out where you ought to be.

[The "Tick" System]

Clearly a late toss and catch would be an error. Movements that are not exactly identical (timing or body wise) between members is easy to see, and would be an obvious tic. The real issue is not many guards these days do a lot of unison movements. So the real issue is how do I apply a tic when everyone is doing something different at the same moment.

In my opinion, that was one of the biggest creative limitations associated with the tick system. Everyone doing something different might be read as a whole bunch of ticks even if it produced a desired effect. But, IMO a redefinition of the tick could fix that. If there is any question, meaning if you have to ask if it's an error, then it's not a tick. Simple as that, it puts the focus on clear mistakes that anyone, not just an expert, could see or hear.

Also agreed with the poster who said that for drummers ticks can be a better measure than other systems. I still use ticks as a teaching tool. The kids get into the challenge of "beating the judge" and it can be an effective measure of progress. But, unless you see the same judge every day, it gets into all kinds of inconsistencies. A roll that's clean to one ear might be a little dirty to another. So, I think those kinds of things shouldn't be ticked at all in competition. But, bouncing a stick across the field or totally dumping on a featured lick should count.

The old tick system wasn't good. It wasn't consistent or objective. I knew that the day Rod Goodhart sat down on the Bridgemen's drum major podium and played along with his pencil on the back of the clipboard through most of the show. He was obviously enamored with the line, convinced they weren't going to tick and wasn't even looking for dirt. And Rod was a great judge! But, I think they threw the baby out with the bath water and a re-tooling of the system might have been a good alternative.

Also want to add that one of my gripes with the current system is that it puts so much emphasis on design, in effect judging the staff almost more than the corps itself. I teach an indoor drum line and the vast majority of commentary from judges is show design related (many of whom also judge DCI). When BD goes on the field, are they judging the corps or are they judging Wayne Downey and company? Obviously, show design is an important aspect of the whole package. But, I'd like to see more of the score in the hands of the performers. Yes, BD would probably still win, but it might give other corps with less bejeweled designers more of a fighting chance.

[The "Tick" System]

You would have to go back also to what one considers a blatant error. Lets say guard.....drops are not the severity as they used to be because of difficulty and multi dimensions used during a phrase. Its not just judged on SPINNING or the complexity of it. I can see i guess a few of the other things but i think it would come down to who feels what was blatant and who doesnt, who caught it who didnt.

Personally I think it would be a huge step backward...JMO

Yes, a blatant error would have to be clearly defined. But, when you are sitting in the stands and see someone out of step, that's an easy error to mark. There shouldn't be any argument about whether or not that was a tick. If the entire guard makes a catch and one loses the equipment, that's also easy to see. I'm not suggesting getting into the nitty gritty of execution. That's where the tick system falls way short. But, if grandma can see or hear it from the stands, it should be a tick.

[The "Tick" System]

The tick system had it's problems, but one advantage was that it put a certain portion of the score directly in the hands of the players. The down side was that one judge's tolerance for error was often different than another, so you could almost predict the execution score by who was judging that night.

I would like to see a re-visitation of the tick system, but in a slightly different application. Rather than ticking anything that isn't 100% clean in the eyes of the judge (the old way), I would advocate ticking clear and obvious flaws only. For instance, someone clearly out of step, getting lost in the drill or more than a step out of position, a missed attack or release, or an equipment drop in the guard.

One problem in the old days was "gray areas," calling on the judge to make a determination on the severity of an error. But, if ticks were reserved for only the most blatant errors, I think it could work in a positive way to give more control back to the players and balance the opinion captions a little bit.