ApathyJones
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Posts posted by ApathyJones
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Yeah. Running instead of marching is over the top, but it's still body movement. Corps have been doing wacky visual moves since the 80's, running for short bursts instead of marching is nothing that crazy. And for me personally, it's not the fact that Cadets are using narration. It's the CONTENT of their narration. It is SO LAME and completely portrays the corps as a huge group of nerds. "When I was in high school, I didn't really fit in..." Wow Cadets! THAT'S how you're going to attract new people to the activity on ESPN2, make DCI look like a bunch of dorks!
I initially fell in love with drum corps because it was like marching band but "cool". Members looked bad### in their uniforms instead of ackward like high school bands. Their visuals were sharp and angry, it was "hardcore" and it really made it possible for me to justify my love for the marching arts to my friends. Now the Cadets... ugh. If they want to use narration then use it to do something AWESOME instead of doing h.s. band shows from the 90's. There is NOTHING innovative about these Cadet shows, they have been done by hundreds of marching bands over the past 20 years.
It's just disgusting.
Dude, seriously...you are my new best friend. This is EXACTLY my feeling as well!
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I don't think you're going to get a more authoritative answer than the one Hopkins made in the linked rules proposal. He observes that there are 2M band members and he believes that he can make them drum corps fans by presenting shows that are a superior version of the ones they perform.
You may not agree, and you may have other theories about how to get new fans. But the linked article is a clear statement of the reasons why, from one of the major proponents of amps, voice, electronics, etc.
What other answer are you looking for?
Saying that a band kid would not be a fan of a DCI show unless it has amped vocals and electronics in it is asinine. Just because Hopkins says it doesn't make it valid. I don't know a single marching band kid who watches a drum corps show and says "Hmm, that is so different from my marching band show due to the lack of vocals and amplified saxophone solos that I can't relate and therefore I am not a fan of drum corps!" Do you HONESTLY believe that the two activities are so different that the only thing keeping 2M band members from becoming DCI fans is amped vocals and mic'ed kazoos? I would also argue that out of 2M band kids the number that would not be fans if they knew about and went to a DCI show would be a VERY small cross section.
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Just like all of these types of threads it has turned into a few people talking about if they LIKE amped vocals or not and not the real question. I have tried to present my question in multiple ways, and it is a question not of opinion, but of logic, and still people tip toe around it because they have no answer. Someone should man up and actually try to comment on the point of my post, NOT whether or not someone likes amped vocals or not. The fact that I do not like them has no bearing on the validity of my question.
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If you think 99.9% of all marching band shows are goofy and uncool, then you've just lost your poker hand. Plus, you've dissed a HUGE percentage of drum corps members who are/were in and love/loved being in their marching band.
And be sure not to watch Blue Devils' dance marathon show if you feel that way about narration. Yet, even through the Yowsas, Blue Devils were very cool.
Tarpon Springs 2006 was beyond astounding in construction, one of the best constructed shows of which I've ever had the pleasure to have my spine tingled.
First Mike, let me just say I have mucho respect for you. Also, me liking or not liking amped vocals or marching band shows doesn't really affect the logic behind my point. If someone could comment on that that would be great. There is no point in arguing opinion and I don't have actual animosity towards people that enjoy amped vocals, I am just curious to see if anyone can come up with a logical rebuttal to my point.
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I've only seen them on video...but no, they are far from "goofy and uncool"...IMO. You are certainly free to think what you wish however.
Curious....why would you be involved with MB if you do not like it? There are MB that run the spectrum from amazingly good to "goofy and uncool"....given the tens of thousands of HS bands in the country (not all competing) of course there will be shows that cover just about everyting you can think of.
Well, if you are talking competitive HS bands...the average age of a HS band member is what? Somewhere between 15 and 16? Most World class corps have an average of around 20. That makes a huge maturity difference, not including the single focus and drive...and rehearsal time...inherent in drum corps vs HS band.
All narration is not goofy, so the above makes no sense. If you go in thinking that as a "given", then you will never appreciate a corps using narration well, as has been shown quite a few times since 2004. As for current fans, if a few spoken words wil turn them off, that's their problem, not the corps.
Well, uncool and goofy are opinions...so we can agree to disagree on if narration is cool or not. My main point remains the same regardless.
Let's try to dissect this in a more logical way...We have 2 groups of people. People who are already fans of drum corps and people who are not. We already know that amped vocals are pissing off alot of current fans, some of who have become non fans. From group 2, the people who are not already fans, how many of them do you think amped vocals will convince to become fans? That is my point. I can't of anyone personally who would have NOT been a fan if amped vocals were not present, but would change their minds if amped vocals WERE present. This INCLUDES the marching band kids.
So in the end, I don't see how introducing and allowing amped vocals helps DCI to gain fans in ANY way. It does however risk polarizing current fans. To me, it seems like from this standpoint alone amped vocals are a failure. Sure, some people may actually enjoy amped vocals, but didn't these same people enjoy drum corps before their introduction? I just fail to see any logical reason to continue the use of amped vocals (or ANY polarizing element) as far as the health of the activity is concerned.
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Not big in Colorado, and I overstated the TX thing - I've seen all the HS shows in the last four years in Colorado - 5 star and 4 star. So I've seen dozens and dozens of CO HS band shows - literally. But I've only seen my neice's HS show (two years), once each. No narration though.
Perhaps defining narration is symantics around here. Is any mic'd vocal sound a narration? Say is somebody went "plop, plop, plop" as in dripping water? I define it in screenwriter terms -- as in the Cadets, where someone is speaking throughout the show, or in a movie, where the narrator is catching up the story narrative or feelings or plotpoint. If there is the minor vocalization or sound effect that was mic'd -- I would not call that narration. For instance, in the BC show where they yelled "Freeze", that's not really "narrative", unless there were several sentences to tell the story adn introduce the characters. That Freeze was a sound effect. JMO
Yes, I guess I should have said "amped vocals" instead of narration...any spoken word or singing that is amped.
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Hmmm. So you're probably talking about another "mom". I don't ever remember discussing narration in any post - defending it or condemning it - doesn't apply to the complaints I hear about my kid's corps. As to knowledge, I don't claim any beyond three years of rabidly following drum corps.
I do however, claim to have good taste and think my opinion is as valid as anyone else's.
As to saving the activity, there have been several studies over the last few years that compare "dying" churches and businesses to "thriving" churches or businesses, and THAT I do know something about. Those studies could be applied to any business or activity. As I said above, DCI's problem isn't the quality of the shows.
The problems may be that few people have even heard of this activity - and that the entertainment dollar of a family can be spent on any one of thousands of choices. Record companies, booksellers and movie theaters are trying to figure out why they don't have the market share that they had in decades past. It's because there are 1000s of ways to be entertained now.
The answer from those studies (about thriving biz and churches) is always to diversify and to innovate. And for drum corps, DCI is going to have to figure out what that means. Or not.
When I think of narration, I'm sorry, but I already tend to think "it's been done already". There will be innovations that will make narration seem mild and trite - and people on this board would hate -- that would involve going 3-D above the field (a la cheering formations and Cirque du Soleil), acrobatics, moving pit pieces, marching pit MIDI instruments (guitar, keys, etc.) giant floating props (a la parade), and choral music.
And no, I wasn't talking about you specifically ;) DCI needs to find a way to both get new fans (the ESPN broadcast was a good idea I thought) while at the same time making sure they do not lose the lifelong fans they have.
Having said this, I doubt the health DCI as an organization is really at the forefront of someone like GHop's mind as they can just say Oops! Narration killed Drum Corps, guess we can just start performing at BOA/YEA shows!
My point being, I have no problem with trying to get new fans, but not at the expense of your current fans.
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But it's the same few corps doing it on a "consistent" basis. Bluecoats, Crown and Cadets. Others may have tried it at some point, but those are The Notorious Three.
Considering there are 20 some odd World Class corps out there (not even counting the Open Class), I'd hardly consider the three mentioned above to be setting any kind of trend.
I think of a trend as something that someone starts, then the next year more people do it, then the next year even more people do it, and so on. 2005 was the first year amped voice was allowed, so this is the 4th year it's been in use. And still the same three corps.
Well, this is true as well. Hopefully (in my eyes) it is a trend that dies out. IF the number of corps using it from last year to this year is any indication, then maybe we will get that wish.
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I don't think that DCI would be the first choice for a summer gig for a theatre major, but I don't think it would be a horrible choice. You'd perform for hundreds of thousands of people, you'd have a permanent record of your work in all the DCI internet & video products, you'd get a lot of experience with touring, you'd demonstrate that you could act convincingly outside of a conventional stage production, etc. I'm kind of surprised the Cadets haven't attracted stronger actors (or script writers and drama coaches, for that matter) given that this is their fourth year in a row with these elements in their programs.
Maybe even theater majors know that narration is lame :P Sorry, I HAD to go there.
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People seem to be saying that the strongest part of Spirit currently is their brass and it isn't being judged, while their weakest is their visual, which is. I think (hope) that with the inclusion of the 8 judge panel we will some some corps shift around. If not, then I think that is a pretty telling sign of slotting.
And I don't mean in regards to just Spirit. I think that if noone shifts around a few spots when the 8 judges come on board then we can almost 100% be sure that the judging is a little sketchy.
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Can you produce one quote on this board where anyone said corps should "try to be more like BOA"? I'd like to see that quote, as I've never seen any posts like that.
Wolfgang
I actually have seen quotes on this board that say exactly that and I will try to dig thru the posts to find them for you (last year I specifically remember multiple posts saying those exact words.)
Also, I don't really need to point out the obvious George Hopkins... (I don't know if he has ever literally uttered those words but I think what has happened in recent years is as close as you can get).
In any case, this isn't really the point of the post. You brought up Tarpon Springs. First of all, hated it for the same reason I hate all shows with amped vocals...because it is goofy and uncool. I also dislike it for an additional reason...I think 99.9% of marching band shows are inherently goofy and uncool as well. I know many people enjoy both marching band and DCI, I however do not (even though I have been involved in both in a large capacity for a long time). If you look a the Blue Devils for instance they look professional, cool, and carry themselves in a way that just doesn't seem dorky. It is way easier to get non-bando people into liking that. Marching bands just don't exude that same sort of maturity and cool factor, and with the addition of goofy narration and stuff it makes it even less cool. Now, add that same goofy narration over the Blue Devils and the cool and maturity is drowned out by the comical narration, and now you have turned off both potential fans, AND current fans.
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If people do say that Drum Corps is becoming more like BOA ) then narration isn't why people say that. I don't even understand why narration would even be considered BOA. I haven't seen a single high school show in marching band or winter percussion with narration in TX or CO.
Calling something BOA has more to do with how the show themes and costumes and music are getting more and more campy so they can be "accessible to the audience" or funny. If that works, then it works. I could be totally wrong here, but as I stated in another thread, when I see a show based on the movie Super Bad or 40 Year Old Virgin, that's gonna really be a lowpoint.
Drum Corps is pretty obscure. (have to put on my flame suit now) I will tell you - only ONE person in my entire department of 36 people had ever even heard of drum corps. NOBODY in my family or my husband's family had every heard of Drum Corps. Then you explain it and they say, "You mean like marching band?" Ugh. Maybe it's big in certain cities or states, but most people have not heard of it.
And as to the source of this information - you're saying it's people with "mom" at the end of their names. Who knows if Drum Corps really is becoming "more BOA". If you're quoting me, that's not what I was saying at all.
I guess I (and others) consider it BOA because until recently it was not present in DCI in any capacity, WAS present in BOA, and that the leadership of some of the top corps also work in the BOA field. It seems obvious to me that that is where it came from.
Also I was not SPECIFICALLY calling you out, I was just saying for some reason this year there are multiple new people posting, with Mom in their names (I'm assuming because they are the mothers of current marching members) that seem to exhibit little knowledge of DCI (probably because they are new "fans" due to their kid/kids being in a corps) that see no problem with the narration and are jumping in with both feet trying to convince people that have MANY years of drum corps experience under their belts that we need to learn to change if we want the activity to not go belly up. I have years of marching and teaching experience under my belt personally and having someone pop in with limited knowledge and talk down to me is frustrating to say the least.
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I still don't understand how DCI as a whole is pushing towards more BOA-type shows. They've allowed the use of some of the same tools that BOA uses.
That's all.
Whether a corps uses them or not is up to the particular corps. So far, only a handful have decided to do so, and only one in particular has garnered any derision of measure.
ETA: What narration trend?
Well multiple shows in the past few years have included narration, so I would consider that a trend...
I was only pointing out that anytime anyone brings this topic up someone invariably cites that it is to increase the fan base and I am just confused at who these people we are trying to get are.
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I constantly hear (on these forums and usually by people with "Mom" at the end of their screen names) that DCI is moving towards narration and more BOA type shows in an attempt to pickup more fans and become more mainstream. Where does this logic come from?? Does anyone know someone that would watch a drum corps show and then at the end say, you know, "I don't like this but if someone was talking to me throughout about breast cancer I would totally be into it!" I just don't think these types of people exist, and if they do, they certainly don't equal the amount of long time fans that hate the changes being introduced by the Cadets, Bluecoats, etc.
In fact, I have witnessed quite the opposite reaction from my non-DCI friends. I have successfully converted non DCI people to fans over the years and upon several of them hearing The Cadet's shows from last year they were literally laughing. If anything, this is a turn off from mainstream people because the narration is so monumentally uncool that it is comical to anyone but a BOA kid who has been exposed to it. Who do you honestly know, that isn't someone who has been exposed to it through highschool band, that would see a recent Cadets show and think the narration was "cool"?
So then invariably the argument drifts to we are trying to grab the BOA kids. Do you know any band kids that actually don't watch or enjoy DCI shows because their is no narration? I don't know a single one. If you are a band geek then chances are you enjoy DCI shows if you have ever been exposed to one, with or without narration.
So, this brings up the question, who are we as an activity trying to win with the recent narration trend?
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After watching the Madison webcast and then the Walnut vids, BD and SCV are going to maul everyone but maybe Cavies. BD is definitely the corps to beat with SCV and Cavies nipping at their heals.
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This crap sucks
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Oh cool, Cadets are coming on...time to go find anything else to do until scores are announced.
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WTF was up with the ending? I'm assuming that is placeholder...it was just hey were are awesome, annnnddd now we are done. Great horns and guard, drill was weaksauce.
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Hmm maybe they wont get super watered...they seem to be handling it much better now.
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I will put money that the horn parts in the Crown show get the garden hose treatment before finals night.
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Alot of individuals sticking out of the ensemble but I am sure that will get cleaned up...still early season and all. Good stuff from Coats...I hope I like it as much with the narration included (I won't...sigh).
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OK...that horn only part from The Boxer is ######!
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ANNNDDDD...electronics just screwed Bluecoats show. Yay for amplified vocals!
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I think so far Spirit and Blue Stars are above the rest of tonights competition. Blue Stars had cleaner feet, Spirit had better horns and guard.
The Stanford Sideline
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
You are wrong...the spread is correct between them and PR. I love PR too, but there is a big difference between LIKING a show better and it BEING better. Currently BD is simply doing everything better than PR right now, except maybe entertaining you.