Top Cat
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This is a repost from another thread but applies to this discussion as well.
Correct me if I am wrong but a total GE score is made up of rep. which is how it is written and perf which is the performance. even if BAC was complete crap last night there is no logical way that their rep score would be justified as low as it was. they have been getting really high scores all season so far in Rep and performance. whitout rewriting the show over night how does that drop so low?
GE Visual is not about the Rep or the Performance, its about the effectiveness of the Rep, the effectiveness of the performance. A unit may have great "dots" and design, but if that night's show lays flat, its not effective. Same with the "performance", if the students performing are not on their game, and the show has no "spark", its not effective. And the score should reflect the EFFECTIVENESS of the performance.
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How many of you have judged at the DCI level? WGI? BOA? For all of you that have "posted" - were you at the shows in question, did you see all groups in question, did you study the recap and look at the subcaptions? Take a look at the performance order at the shows in question. Competition Dynamics...if you don't know what I am talking about, ask a judge.
Sheldon: Your approach is absolutely correct. Competition dynamics drives a lot of the decisions. Order of appearance is critical.
IF, and that's a big IF, Marie was in error, the Boston staff would address it with her, the DCI Caption head and with John Phillips as well.
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This is an excellent thread to post various opinions and insights.
GGARRETT asks some great questions. Here is my take on some of this:
Let's leave all the references to errors, mistakes, tics, etc. out - its gone, no longer part of the judging system like for a very long time. Achievement - what and how, that is what all of us need to reference when forming an impression of a performance (overall or in specific caption). What is that corps performance offering and how well did they do it tonight, now, this show.
Personal criteria, yes definetly - each judge brings a different set of past experiences, knowledge and emotions to each assignment. There is no way to have each judge be exactly like each other - that is not achievable and would not be good for the activity. Its through show variety that each corps gains recognition and so variety in judging makes for better adjudication. Would we want to see each corps do the some show? Same music - drills??? No way - we left that school of thought out back in the 40's. Likewise each judge brings some different insights to their evaluation. The smart staffs know how to take those insights and make improvements in their productions. Especially if the insights highlight some aspect of the show that has escaped their perception.
The mechanics of the scoring system and judging philosophy will keep the extremes of judging in check. There are serious ramifications for any judge to go outside the system. Score variances within a box and box range are nominal and acceptable, score variances outside of box and to the extreme raise big questions and generally do not escape the review of the powers to be.
Training is a touchy subject in many ways. DCI level training is almost non existent. If anything an annual meeting has occurred but more to review scoring systems and scoring philosophy. Some consider this as "training", at a basic level I suppose, but to make very good judges better?????? As for judge "evaluations", some formalized methods were used in the past (like 3-4 years + ago), now, its more of "if you do well - you get more and "better" assignments", if you "choose poorly" your assignments go down and the highlight of the season is Sioux Falls!!!! (No offence to Sioux Falls but its not the Alamo Dome).
Some good points on ties - bottom line ties are a function of the scoring system and how tight the competition is. Ties within a caption - not acceptable under any circumstance, at the sub caption level - can happen, but should be the extreme exception, not the rule. For all you recap readers, this is a great way to analyse a recap. Look at the caption scores given in relationship to the ORDER of APPEARANCE, not in the order of finish. And look at the spreads given and how that judge allowed for up comming performances to possibly fit in between.
Thanks for bringing up the "modified" scoring system - what a bad solution to a poor situation. Maybe finances are tight, but this was a cop out solution. Without having detail information, a possible equal approach may have been to better regulate the judge travel aspect of the assignment process. Like more reliance of qualified "local" judges rather than flying people in from Washington or California to do midwest shows or looking at car pooling teams rather than each on their own.
Anyway, the die is cast and its water over the flooded dam now.
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Standard judging practice is to take into consideration an short and/or incomplete performance when assigning a score. It is still subjective in that judges do not time off the length of the performance, so they are left at the end taking a chance whether the show time actually was under. Incomplete is a whole lot more obvious and should be considered in the number assigned.
Now, how much???? This gets real dicy, experienced "veterans" will not hesitate to hack off some tenths (points), newer guys are much more reluctant to take a position.
Not being there, if the BD & SCV shows were actually short/incomplete and they still pulled those numbers:
1. The rest of the performance must have been fantastic, or,
2. The judges just let them slide and did not take into consideration the unfinished product.
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Aren't judges fees paid by the show hosts?
Each show sponcer is "charged" an additional fee for judges and contest administration (including travel). The exact amount???? At one time (and maybe still) each sponsor was allocated the same regardless of location. Now whether DCI assesses the same allocation with 5 judges vs. 8 and keeps the balance? or reduces the fee accordingly? That's up to the show sponsors to address!!!!!
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As for the desperate move of reducing the number of judges for the first half of the season...isn't this similar to if major league baseball decided that they would reduce the number of umpires to 2 for each game until the all star break? Wouldn't this compromise the quality of the product & the results?
When DCI decides they must downsize the number of judges at DCI competitions, make no mistake...money is tight.
Hey do the math: 33 contests x 3 judges each, that's 99 "assignments" saved. @ (I think) $250 judge fee per assignment + travel = $250 each + hotel room $50 = $550 per assignment x 99 = $54,450. That's not chicken feed. And these numbers may be conservative on the travel front.
As for the "quality" of the product? Look at last year when they put the execution judges in the stands early on - the performance quality was (at least in my opinion) much lower through the early season and NEVER recovered into the end. (Don't qote me scores as being comparable to other years - its a numbers illusion relative to the real performance results).
Hey this is a similar strategy used in the early 90's when they cut the panels from 9 to 6 for several years[/b].
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Not an attorney, but I think your presumption that these tapes have no copyright is false. Any recording has a presumed copyright under US copyright law. If you think a creation such as a tape has to be registered in the federal copyright office in order to be copyrighted, that's not correct. I would bet the contract between DCI and the judges covers this and specifies that the copyright belongs to DCI-- after all, they've used some of these tapes in recent years on the DVDs, and they probably do so without extra compensation to the judges for that use, so DCI probably retains all rights with regards to judge tapes. (If the contract between judge and DCI didn't cover that, you could have an argument as to who actually held the copyright on any one tape-- the judge who recorded the tape, or DCI who employed the judge?) Also, there's a corps performance in the background behind the judge. The question is, would anybody bother to enforce a copyright on the judge's tape? Would DCI or the judge or the performing corps care about it? Quite possibly not.
There is no specific contract between the judges and DCI regarding tape "ownership". The universal feeling among the judges is that the tape belongs to the individual corps, it was recored for. Whether that includes DCI (DCA, BOA, WGI, etc.) is secondary, the tape is for the unit.................... What they do with it (or make/distribute copies) is their business.
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It's been awhile --- anyone hear any update on this topic??
I hope it is being resolve so as not to detract the corps and its administration from the coming season.
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Anyone have details on starting times for the events of the weekend?
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Why in the world would a modern DCI finalist want to play a recognizable, melodic, toe-tapping, parking lot humming genre like Broadway musicals???!!!....it's competetive suicide I tell you!!
Oh my how corrny can we get --- shows that someone would actually recognize the music?????????????????????
Much more "competetive" to play original "music" that are just notes or even better -- such obscure material that even the original composer forgot about ever writting it.
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I have known Greg for mega years and he has the highest standards regarding the Colt organization and their members (including the Cadets). Kicki is completely dedicated to the cadet members and providing them with a totally safe environment.
Sounds like the child found a better home environment in Dubuque vs. home with his parents. Greg & Vicki have way too much experience in dealing with young people to have made this kind of error.
Looks like a lot more to the story than indicated in the newspaper article (and you know how much you can trust the media!!!!).
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The Previous reply's pretty much hit the basics. The coolest part to remember about the finish gun were the corps that had the show so perfectly timed and thought out that the gun shots actually fit the show. Now that was making lemonade out of lemons.
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If the list is going to include the Stillwater and Coon Rapids (DCI) shows, it should include the Madison, WI show on June 28 (Kilts, Chops & Minn Brass).
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Good description Box5.
This still fits with the technique of Impression (which box was the performance), Analysis (where in the box best fits to the criteria) and Comparison (where does this score fit to the other units, past experiences and by what spread).
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Field shows.... I could be mistaken, but weren't drum corps after WWI mainly parade units?
You are pretty close - prior to WWII the "field" shows were basically a parade formation pattern. Looking from the front stands; the corps would start to your left, parade across the front, make a left turn at the end line, go around to the back, proceed to the center, make a left and march to the front as a presentation move. and exit to their left (stands right) off the field.
From another post, I agree the change to the "bugle" to add the piston opened up the potential to playing "songs" vs. just basic bugle calls. The slide (if I remember correctly) added the potential for # & flats.
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Looks like the Stillwater event - June 22 is a DCI show with 3 DCA corps (Chops, Govies & MN Brass);The Coon Rapids event on June 29 is also a DCI show with 4 DCA corps (Chops, Govies, MN Brass & Kilts).
Most likely it will be judged with DCI judges trying to use DCA sheets and criteria.
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Interesting Overall: nice costuming, coreography is repetative BUTT effective, it's the spiked shoes that do it - oh if they just would not sink into the turf!!!!!!!!
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My heart is shattered. Harvey was one of the true gentelmen of our activity. Always gererous with his time, talents and insights. I will miss him on more than one level.
I know he has been welcomed into the warm face of our Savior and now basks in His warm embrace.
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I wonder what the lowest score ever is?
I do not have the details in front of me, but this is easy to determine. Each caption sheet is divided into 5 boxs, box one the lowest score potential. Just for showing up and doing "something" (you played notes, hit drums, moved), you get at least the top end of box one if not the very low end of box 2. So, add up the high end number for each captions box 1 score and you would have the lowest potential score.
There were much lower scores recored when scoring was done on the tic system, but let's not go there!!!!
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Bill;
Great analogy regarding sports overall. Yes 0-0, but which team has the better talent? better coaching? better game plan? THEN the better execution of all that!!!
Bottom line, same things we have in drum corps (band, winter guard, in-door percussion, etc.). Until our activity gets to the overall balanced level where any corps can win on any day, there will continue to be "debates" on this subject.
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I hear you Don. "Maybe" it happens that way, but it should not. Comparable performances should receive comparable scores. Regardless of the "names" associated, or the overall quality (or lack there of) of the product. If we only lived in a perfect world!!!!!!
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Here are a couple of points to ponder:
You are correct, under the current scoring systems (DCI & DCA) a unit can not score a zero because even with the most "simple" of program, performed very poorly there will still be some degree of achievement. The criteria references on the sheets will guide the judge to the correct range and number.
There can be an exception to this: If there is no color guard, or no perciusion or no brass performers they would get a zero for that caption (have only see this in regards to a no color guard situation).
The system assumes a starting point for each caption at "zero", but the potential for achievement is specific to each unit. No 2 programs are the same, each has its own potential for achievement based on design, performers and training. Some units have better designs/programs, others have better performers/training and other units have better of both in comparison to their competitors.
So when we as fans think that a particular unit (perennial powerhouse) has a jump start over the competition maybe its just because they have designed a better show, recruited a better group of performers and taught/trained the performers better.
Last point: The method of assessing a score is based on a 3 step process: impression, analysis and comparison. Scores are not assessd in isolation. There is both immediate comparison: to the units in that particular event and historical comparison: to the standards of the activity.
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Frank's insights and thoughts are so much on the mark that this article should be REQUIRED reading for ALL DCI & DCA directors and staff. Take the hint guys, doing things BETTER is the way to success, adding band aids only covers your weak programming concepts.
Hats off and major cudo's
to Frank. PLEASE keep it up. 
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DrumCorpsFan is correct. The judges approach to scoring is a direct reflection of what the DCI Directors/Task Force want to see and have credited. Sure there is some "wiggle" room for an individual judges initiative, but if he/she wanders too far from the philosophy - their days are over. And heaven forbid you do not follow the status quo.
petition to fire Marie Czapinski!
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Marie may have been the DCI Visual Caption head for several season (back several seasons ago), but do not confuse that role with training. DCI judges are accepted in "trained" and are expected to apply the scoring system and philosophy from the get go.