Gaddabout
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Posts posted by Gaddabout
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but outside of drum corps and guys who want to play in jazz settings (where I'd argue trad is a much better choice than matched, the underhand grip lending itself to comping better than the "Bam Bam" grip, to my taste), I'm not sure that there IS much of a place for trad grip.
I think you'd have a fight on your hands with guys like Ari Hoenig if you repeated that in New York.
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Who was the perc caption head that year?
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I think it means corps need to take more risks to rack up better GE scores. If everyone has more practice time, every corps with extra time to work out the kinks may be killing it come August and prepped for a nice finals run. If you play it safe, cleaner may become a relative judging aspect.
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Jim Brewer hired as corps entertainment director.
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I think Colts have more "local" members (within 150 miles) than most. Academy as well. I'd be interested in numbers from other corps as far as their geographical makeup.
Those are also the two most isolated (comparatively), so it stands to reason.
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On the idea that mylar heads made drums sound like drums...
What exactly defines what sounds like a drum and what doesn't?
Drum is an extremely vague word...there's so many different types of drums. So many different sounds...I personally think we're cheating ourselves if we're limiting ourselves to ONE type of snare sound that is supposed to sound like every other snare drum in the classical/drum set world.
And besides, let's face it-even those drums are sounding higher and tighter every day. The ideal snare drum sound for a drumset these days is tight, and articulate-but still resonant and ringy, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, I don't think we should be limiting ourselves to one type of sound for any drum at all...limits the creativity, and that's never fun. Kevlar sounds DIFFERENT-that's a good enough reason for me.
And if you heard Bluecoats and Boston's snares from this past year, you'll be pleasantly surprised, I think.
I think the bottom line for most people who don't like kevlar is the desire to hear the actual snares rattling in the drum. This is an effect that can ONLY be observed by listening from afar. Playing a modern marching snare with a kevlar head up close, you can hear the snares rattle. But that effect totally disappears when you drop back 20 feet or so. OTOH, 15" wooden drums with mylar heads ... listening to them now, it never occurred to me how muddy they were, but it's evident now. Even with great lines, it was truly a major achievement to get truly synced snare playing.
In terms of snare sounds in the drum set world ... I guess I would just say the Black Beauty remains an industry standard. As a gigging drummer, my BB is my work horse and no one's ever asked me for a Steve Jordan/popcorn snare sound. My BB has multiple tunings, but there remains a certain preferred snare aesthetic -- wet or dry -- that hasn't changed much the past 80 years (since the introduction of seamless metal shells). A snare is defined more by the reaction of the wires on the reso head than its pitch tuning. Otherwise it's just a seriously cranked single tenor drum.
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Historically, a number of key corps switched to matched grip b/c studies of the day seemed to suggest more potential for matched grip. This may or may not be true by today's standards of science. But for that blip in time during the late 70 and early 80s alot of excellent lines were using matched grip with great success.
I think it would be interesting to go back and interview folks from that era to get a complete picture of what was going on. It's long been my impression that Tony Cirone -- a legendary concert percussionist -- had this massive impact on drum corps without ever participating. His program produced Fred Sanford, and it sort of fans out from there is all kinds of impressive, breath-taking ways. And with Hardimon taking over SCV with their classical regimen ... you start to get a picture of a serious matched-grip movement as harnesses are introduced, I think.
Anyway, I find the history (and resulting impact) more interesting than the actual debate of matched vs. traditional. I am however pleased most of us seem to recognize the decision is almost universally an emotional, aesthetic one. Twenty years ago I don't think that many people were as self-aware on the issue and it seemed like everyone had decided one was better than the other. Pick a side and draw your weapon. LOL
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The 80s were pretty cheesy. Some of the things I haven't seen mentioned yet (and may just be my own peculiar tastes):
- Star's Star Wars show. The wigs on the color guard ... enough said.
- BD '86 IIRC, this was the Buddy Rich Suite year, and they drumline seemed to have effects that made no sense. The cymbal line doing the Breakfast Club dance. The tenors flashing the 'cocaine' stick effect. Cheese!
- When my friends and I saw Spirit do Sweet Georgia Brown, I loved the singing, but my friends though it was corny. Actually that's still one of my favorite DCI shows. But I guess that segment was a little cheesy.
- The Troopers' Silverado show with the hoe down drum feat complete with cowboy dancing.
- Every high-note freak who ever flashed finger guns at the end of their solo.
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THE GREASY SHOW
Knock Yourself Out - Tower of Power (give me the ryhtm section + clapping from the live version)
Oakland Stroke - Tower of Power (include corps lyrics section)
Man from the Past (outro - drum feat) - Tower of Power
Tell Me Somthing Good - Rufus
Sprung Monkey - Stanton Moore
Flashlight - Parliament
THE PROG ROCK SHOW
Speak to Me/Breathe - Pink Floyd
21st Century Schizoid Man - King Crimson
Roundabout - Yes
Miss Tinkle's Overture - Umphrey's McGee
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Coolness factor---10. Feasibility factor---2.
First, forget the Olympics as they are for athletes. Second, have a Music Olympics. Third, have these Olympics for more than just DC--orchestras, bands--rock, marching, jazz--ensembles, solo acts, choir---anything that moves air. Gamelan, koto, latin, opera, the whole trip. (I hope I didn't lose you with opera) Then you will have the interest of many more people with $$$ and now that I think about it, that would kick some tall a#@!! I would go to that--Sydney, Berlin, Seoul, Rio, man that would kick.
Make no small plans as they have no magic to stir men's blood.
I would just offer the vast majority of academia in music I've ever met have major issues with the competitive aspect of drum corps -- or competition of any kind in the artistic world. I would guess it would lack certain ... holistic support from the academic community.
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golf isn't even in yet, and it's played in practically every country of the world.
Golf has officially been adopted for exhibition in the next summer games.
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If the left hand wasn't supposed to rotate like it does in traditional grip, why are there muscles allowing it to? Just pointing out a flaw in your reasoning.
I never said the left hand wasn't *supposed* to rotate like that, I said the muscle development isn't there the way it is for matched. Ask any 4-year-old to pick up sticks and they pick them up matched. It's universal, because that's the most natural way for the muscles to work with the hands. Flip the same kid's left hand over and the left hand doesn't know how to rotate. The starting point for the left hand is further back than for matched grip.
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In my experience, you have to train the right hand just as much as you train the left, matched or traditional. If anyone really took the time to look at what is going on with matched grip, you'd find there's nothing matched about it. Nobody has the same left and right arms, just like one foot is always bigger than the other. And the arms and wrists move differently too.
I have found its much harder to get, two, three, or more drummers to have a similar motion and range on both hands with matched grip than with traditional. That's my opinion and experience in 45 years of drumming and teaching. However, when teaching a drummer fresh out of the box, matched gets them up to speed very quickly compared to traditional.
In the sense that most kids show up at camp with different interpretations of matched grip, I'll give you that. And if all of them are at the same base level of traditional grip, you can teach them to avoid bad habits. But 20 kids showing up with their own home-grown interpretations of traditional grip, I think you have more or less the same challenge as matched grip.
And from what I can tell, that's what's going on today, because traditional grip has experienced a massive revival in modern culture beyond DCI.
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Think out of the box - Ozzie Osborne - No More Tears!
If Crown did it, I bet they could pull off a slow-motion backward masking drill in the routine.
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They don’t stop in the middle of the show and just play
Park-and-blow is passe', for lesser corps who can't march, if I'm reading my DCP correctly. I'm with you, but I think we're in a small minority.
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Fewer beards. By far less stubble.
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I suppose that all depends on what level you take your playing to. Wait... it does depend on what level you are taking your playing to.
Regads,
John
Traditional grip is only 'harder' in the sense it's not intuitive to the left hand the way matched grip is. In matched grip, the left hand already has some muscle development for most people because picking up any object in matched is the most natural way. So traditional grip left hand usually requires some extra sweating because you end up training muscles to move in a way they've never moved before.
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FYI, I believe International corps are allowed to compete in Open Class if they follow DCI rules. Cost is prohibitive of course.
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I can tell you this debate has been equally divisive in the drum set world. Traditional is seen as the "educated" grip, because so many session masters use it, whereas match is the instinctive or "caveman" grip. What's funny is most traditional grip guys use both, including the masters -- Gadd, Weckl, Colaiuta, etc. Weckl said it's an emotional choice for him. Matched grip is also viewed as "anti-swing," yet I defy anyone to listen to Ari Hoenig and tell me that guy can't swing.
Having left the DCI culture a long time ago and studied under grip gurus, I can tell you there's no mechanical advantage to traditional grip. If you're wanting to use fingers (and I hope everyone who plays the drum set does), matched grip has numerous advantages.
And having spent some time teaching grip to friends who've developed injuries like carpal tunnel, I can tell you grip is far less important than mechanics (i.e. maintaining a proper fulcrum, allowing the stick to pivot freely, etc.).
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Once again...
"Crank snares to the top" says the theorem.
"The hardware won't 'pop' so don't fear them."
But hands and wrists blight from 'Formica-hard' tight,
And only a bat's ears can hear 'em!
"They're 'tenors'" we say of our quads.
To call them that, though, is at odds.
To designate right, their multi-heads tight,
Say "Four toneless bongos"... ye gods!
"Traditionally" (said to our faces)
"The big drums are what were called 'basses.'"
They're now cranked terrific, way up stratospheric,
Too high! Throw 'em back in their cases.
And speaking of sections expensive,
(now don't anyone get defensive)
"More tymps, bells and 'toys'! We MUST have more noise!"
The Pit swallows money... extensive!
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The "tick" system of judging was a bit of a controversy-still is-some favored it and others hated it. Having marched in a world with ticks and one without (and no flea collar necessary), I think the tick system was useful for judging the larger corps and less so for the smaller (could be intimidating).
I sort of agree with you. At least with a tick system you felt the judging was standardized and it usually felt fair. I know a lot of people cheered when the tick system went away, but I bet more than a few caption heads would like to return to that system. If you're writing a book, what incentive do you have today of writing something really thick and challenging if there's no clear advantage in doing so? Maybe some judges reward more for a challenging book than others, but that's not something you can anticipate the winter before a season.
Or maybe I have it backwards and tick system meant lots of hosing of the book during the season. I guess that happens regardless, but maybe ticks really did cause too much heartache for caption heads. Would love for a judge to weigh in here.
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I was introduced to traditional grip -- BD style -- back in the early 80s when there was a split between corps and grip. SCV snares, for example, famously used matched grip.
Watching videos from this year I have yet to see a corps use matched grip on snares. Maybe I've missed a corps, but wondering what happened between way back then and now. Back then the prevailing theory was traditional grip would die out (since the harness was invented and nobody slung their drums anymore) and everyone would be using matched.
But that didn't happen. It's gone the other direction. Even stranger, more and more set players are using traditional (and a lot of them look self-taught, sadly).
What gives?
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Drum corps is constantly changing on the whims of leadership of the moment. Keep in mind we still had marching mallets until 1982. The change to adding a pit was probably more controversial in the day than any of the changes today because suddenly you had people who were no longer marching in an activity that was uniquely defined by marching.
So if something that radical can happen (really overnight), all this other stuff is minor in comparison.
I do think people in drum corps are (finally) becoming more sensitive to the physical demands of the activity and are trying to do things so kids don't leave the sport with arthritis, carpal tunnel, or some other avoidable, incurable injury. In the not-so-distant past I think drum corps attitudes in general were summed up with a "suck it up" mentality. Not unlike the way football used to be taught -- by depriving players of water thinking it was toughening them up, or implicitly endorsing hazing of players as part of essential culture, etc. I think amplification is a legitimate solution to over-stroking in the pit ... but it's only a solution if corps teach more concert-style technique that is biologically (and musically) acceptable.
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Crossmen: The Music of Don Ellis
I believe the Blue Devils have done this before. I think this because I recall a conversation with Don's drummer from that era, David Crigger, discussing the experience.
What happened to matched grip?
in Percussion Planet
Posted
Still not understanding. All Hoenig does is jazz trio. He has his own. He played in one with Scofield. I don't think I'm out on a limb to suggest he's the world's preeminent small combo drummer right now in the bop tradition. He looks like he's had a horrible back accident when he sits behind the kit, but he's an undeniable world-class swinger who uses matched grip.