ZealJ03
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Posts posted by ZealJ03
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Your argument basically boils down to the notion that BD's staff is not pushing their members. Frankly, having witnessed their practices, I don't buy that. They really are just that good at making what they do look effortless.
I'm not saying corps shouldn't take risks, but giving members a program they can't possibly hope to succeed at (and I don't mean absolutely nail to perfection) is doing them a disservice. You don't have to design a insane program to teach these young adults any of the things you mentioned.
My argument is that the magnitude of pushing the kids can be amped up more. I'm not saying they're not pushing their kids. They should experiment with going much further. Further than the comfort zone of what you think is possible.
You don't have to make it insane. If you run a 5k, run a 7k or a 10k. You don't have to go up to the 20k right away, work up to it in LARGE chunks. The increment has to be uncomfortable.
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That's not an Oprah tarp. An Oprah tarp would have covered the entire field.
I find that those Americaphobes on here who HATE this show are looking at one or two problems and pooh-poohing the entire effort.
Save for a few, and I mean, FEW indulgences at the very end, this show is wonderful. It's far from preachy. Do a show about the POTUS; expect Americana.
As far as age is concerned, one cannot turn back time. Seems to me the Cadets are pretty consistent in message; it's for the enrichment of young people. Trophies have always been treated as icing on the cake. It's the Cadets experience that is the meat of the meal.
They are really about taking huge risks and trying to execute those risks to the highest quality possible. That applies to life a lot better than that horrible MBA non profit mumbo jumbo about enrichment.
People are already calling it Oprah tarp. That ship has sailed. Oprah Tarp pwns regurgitated Scherezade in the comedy department. As a matter of fact, it could be the most hilarious moment in DCI if the cadets just pulled out one single massive Oprah tarp for their finale.
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Well, the corps' own bar for excellence is absurdly high. It's what the alumni mean we when use the term "BD clean".
Make it higher. Try something extreme and forget about BD clean. I have a huge hunch that BD isn't truly exploring what it's capable of. It's not a big deal, you can go back to your current formula if it doesn't work out.
I don't know, Play a joke one year and become the Red Devils, or the Blue Angels. If you think BD is already outside the box, take it further.
It's the Blue Devils, winning again isn't interesting (same goes for Cadets). You can always do it again.
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On the flip side, it irks me to watch a corps struggle all summer with a program that is clearly too difficult for them. That one moment that would be "epic" if they ever actually managed to nail it. There's challenging your members, and then there's setting them up for failure.
Yes. If you take risks you will fail more than you succeed. And that's okay. Yes it's difficult. And that too is okay. It's just drum corps placement. The concept of failure isn't that detrimental. You go from 1st place to 6th place, the world doesn't stop. You have next year.
The kids are extremely young. Failing in drum corps by losing a few placements in an obscure underground community that most of the world is not familiar with is trivial. You shouldn't teach the kids to fear failure. You should teach the kids to push the notion of what is possible by increasing their difficulty threshold.
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Because the organizational goal is one of performance excellence. The idea is to put out a program that challenges the members to the extent that they can make it as near perfect as humanly possible on August 9th, 2014. It's about squeezing out every bit of achievement you can, not "almost nailing it".
There are a large host of "almost" corps, but very few that push the balance of content and achievement like Devils do (and Crown last year, and Cadets most years).
It's not up to the Blue Devils to rewrite the rulebook. You wouldn't see that in any other sport or competitive event. The corps plays the game by the rules and adjudication process that is in place. Change that, Devils will change with it, and most likely excel in whatever venue you turn it into.
I am encouraging the Blue Devils to take a risk in making their shows harder than their current preconceived notions of what is feasible. It's purely for curiosity sake. There are no rule books to taking unknown risks in increasing difficulty. If there was a rule book it wouldn't be difficult.
It's like constantly getting As, then getting curious about what other challenges life would present if you pushed yourself and raised your own bar of excellence.
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You should have heard those "kids" screaming for them at Rutgers.
The Cadets have been here for 80 years. If we can survive 2006, we can survive ANYTHING!
Oh I have no doubt. DCI and every other corps will fold and The Cadets will still be kicking and screaming. George Hopkins is hands down on another planet in terms of being resourceful. That man manipulates heaven and earth to keep that corps running strong.
His design staff on the other hand is too old. (Same goes for SCV, BD, and Phantom). They need that young staff, new writers, and designers who are more eager to prove a point.
Oprah tarp isn't going to cut it on the innovation theme that they keep shoving down people throats.
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This is what I've suspected they've been doing for a pretty long time and winning with ( BD organization), and yet other corps can't figure it out that this is what it takes to consistently contend for a title or win DCI today.
I don't think the other corps' caption heads particularly care that BD wins guard. I don't believe they are even attempting to emulate or figure it out.
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There's a significant amount of struggle at the Blue Devils, you just never see it because they work *very* hard to get it all out before they ever put the uniform on. The amount of work they put in at winter camps and spring training is simply mind-boggling. In all honesty, if you see any top corps struggling at any point in the season, they've done something very wrong.
If it's already difficult, raise the bar 2x or 3x for next year. Difficulty is relative to your own designers comprehension, not necessarily to other drum corps. If they achieve that, make it more difficult. Make it seem that the corps are aiming to clean and execute a show beyond what the staff thinks is possible. It's like, I get it... perfect captions year after year.
If you create a show that is that seriously difficult to pull off, you might get 4-6. So what? They've given thousands of members rings already. What's another perfect caption mean anymore. It's starting to look like Constantly Risking Absurdity Part 7.
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Dear zigzigZAG,
We get it. You hate the message in the Cadets' show. Please move on.
Love,
Wallace
I really agree with zigzigzag. The Cadets have been that corps that were just different and didn't not give a rats behind about anything in DCI. Both high scoring and low scoring shows had the same amount of bravado.
They're showing signs of becoming more concerned about trying to fight for numbers and they are serious losing character and becoming more and more robotic.
They used to be more "WHOA" and now they're more "Oh."
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The thing that irks me is that Blue Devils seamless perform their program with ease from the get go in the early shows. I think that's an indication that they're really not challenging their kids. Yes they perform well, yes they are amazing, but if the kids are so good I think you should challenge them with consecutive years where the show is hard enough that the beginning of the season is very rough and the end of the season is very refined.
There's a sense of reward watching a corps literally struggle through a run through in the beginning of the season and see them conquer a show by finals week.
I never get that sense of reward from BD. These 20s comes too easy for them, so my applause seems to be more directed at the designers more than the corps. It's fine, but it has been kind of boring to see a corps that consistently gets 20s. For a niche activity that is dwindling away, this sort of emphasis on what is considered a perfect caption makes it more niche I guess. It almost feels like BD shouldn't compete because the consistency of giving them the best score is so absolute that it is becoming more and more tolerable. Sugar doesn't taste so sweet when you have it everyday.
The Cadets need to figure it out. 2007-2009 was some of the most beautiful drill in terms of demand, design, and execution. I didn't think they really cared about whatever was happening with the scores, the audience reaction, or the general perception. 2008's closer just made me chuckle at the fact that whatever watching before me was actually happening. That aura of brashness was a breath of fresh air. They might not have won but the entire DCI community probably acknowledged the kids as being serious Olympians.
Cadets please go back to not caring so much. The members are not that weak but I get the feeling that you're starting to shelter them from the judging sheets. Bring back that whiplash drill and crazy hornbook. You guys have been playing it too safe and too cautious and you are dangerously losing your roots of being DCIs biggest risk taker. When you're consistently a high risk taker in terms of excellence, you falter often and succeed less. But that one or two times you get it right, the pay off is totally worth it. The shows have been lifeless and I feel like you're resorting to shoddy methods to just get points rather than truly generating effect. I feel as though Carolina Crown has inherited the Cadets' willingness to take risks with difficulty and not care if you stumble and have a rough year. DCI probably won't last for much longer (I hope I'm wrong) so why not go for the jugular.
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This is the flaw of the 2009 Cadets program: It was too technical to perform. The Design team tried to squeeze every possible technically and physically exhausting situations into the program making the marching members overwhelmed to "perform". The program was a clinic in showing you every exposed concept you could throw out there. There were so many instances to mess up or simply get hurt, that a lot of times members played like they were stepping on egg shells. Talking about falling, this season for the Cadets probably had the most instances of members falling or crashing. Even with the preshow material (which was pretty difficult drill), the show was almost always 1-2 seconds shy of passing the penalty time limit.
1) Rumble: The brassline was spread over 90 yards at very high tempos with extremely massive step sizes. Musically, the constantly recurring cold brass entrances made it very easy to tear. Probably 1/4 of the ensemble rehearsals and 1/3 of sectionals time was spend on this 30 second tune.
2) Prologue: Tons of double tonguing and tough articulation statements made it very hard to have the hornline agree not only the drumline but also each other. The ending drill was probably the hardest visual moment in the entire show.
3) A Boy Like That: This was the ensemble nightmare of the entire show. The corps was split up into 2 mini drum corps playing completely different but complementary brass and percussion parts. Transferring and syncing tempo was like directing air traffic with a higher chance of falling apart. Visually, this ballad was by no means any break from the show. The tempo was very fast and was marched 1/2 at double time with some challenging closing drill from a dissolving company front. The color guard had to spin their final ensemble work with no musical tempo.
4) Cool With an entire long sections empty of percussion, the brassline had quite the challenge to maintain tempos while playing mezzo forte hits spreading over 80 yards apart. Tempo was kept with numerous and clever methods of handing off "duts" from one person to the next. The tons of rotating blocks and lines made cool quite the spectacle for rotating drill and matching responsibilities.
5) Quintet/Tonight, Tonight There's one thing about marching curvilinear drill at the cadets... but... there's another about making letters and shapes: there's no forgiveness in being out of the form. 1/2 this tune was played facing the backfield. Unfortunately, there was one evil catch. The drumline would be playing at the back sideline with the hornline behind them. Tempos were kept through listening to the trumpets who had the main melody making it an extremely awkward feeling of keeping time. The ending drill, well... what else was there to say? Endurance training to the max.
I'm pretty sure the corps only had 1/4 of the tour shows to be as energetic, "shako-raising", performances. There was just no time to soak up the audience or to really enjoy what was going on musically.
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2007 Cadets. Hands Down Most Aggressive/###### Off Statement Ever
1990 Star of Indiana - Lush. Period.
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The Cadets closer - - - - - - - - - - - jesus christ
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So Phantom Regiment's horns were amazing?
No just fan-flood design in terms of the music selections and arrangements.
The show itself isn't anything different than 2005, 2006, 2007. Character-based shows, specifically with the Guard as primary role players and the hornline as secondary ambiance. After watching the bootlegs, Phantom really didn't do anything beyond their concepts and expressions as they did in Faust.
It's definitely no Medea or The Zone. Doesn't mean it has to be as out there
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I personally didn't think Phantom Regiment was that amazing. I think it was just the emotions put through the horns.
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1) Phantom
2) BD
3) Cadets & Cavaliers
5) Crown
I really REALLY really disagreed with Crown's high placement.
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In terms of show design:
Bluecoats, they actually are entertaining in a very different and more relatable way. For me, Crown's just a marching ipod playing songs really really well.
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(1) Who would the "certain corps" be? Tell us all in detail, how they "hide" their sound, so the secret
gets out and other corps can use this tactic, too.
GB
Well Blue Devils are known for their smoke in the mirrors. 2004 BD used it a lot. Everyone fingered the notes, but only select members played it.
The Cavaliers hornline stops moving in their pods that fly across the field.
Corps that are very extensive in staging will do this a lot.
I know that the Cadets are huge about equal contribution only bring volumes down. Jeff Sacktig doesn't seem to care as much for staging of the hornline, the ensemble plays all the time. Santa Clara back in the day did the same thing. I'm not sure about Phantom or Crown though..
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Arguing over this is kind of pointless since everyone really kind of hears the ensemble, not a field brass sample that the Brass Judges hear.
Judges are quite human: Check out Bluecoats brass score from last year. If numbers can jump that much by a finals weekend judge, I doubt arguing over on a forum would make much sense especially since everyone is going off recordings and audience seats. The brass performance judge is on the field taking samples.
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Eh...disagree. Thats like calling the cadets on playing malaguena in 2003. Sure, if crown keeps on doing 'best of' shows for years to come, you'd have a point, but one year does not a trend make. They may have done some familiar songs last year, but those where quite different thematically, whereas this year was an intentional and direct lift. As far as brass playing, i hear very little similarities to phantom. Certainly nothing that warrants a copycat label. As far as marching straight leg...i dont think cadets get a copyright on that...who invented it anyway???
Great points!
But 2003 Cadets playing malaguena was like a remix of what Madison did, and Blue Shades in 2007 was certainly different enough that I didn't really think about Santa Clara. As for Straightleg, the current Quad Muscle extension Straightleg and "separation of thigh" concepts is coined by the Cadets technique. You see the actual development of it between 1991 and 1993.
It's probably just me, I know many of the Crown staff taught and marched Cadets, but I just seem to see visual similarities with the Cadets and Musical similarities with Phantom.
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Carolina Crown is my culprit on this issue.
Their brass design is too close with that of Phantom Regiment: Majestic, Sublime, Sustains, Chords.
Their visual design is too close with that of The Cadets: Straightleg technique is exactly the same, Copying exact drill moves year after year after year. For those who have the 2003 Cadets DVD and the 2007 Crown DVD, check it out big time.
I am to understand many of Crown's staff taught and marched Cadets, but I think they really need to find their own individuality. They need their own spice, especially since they are now in the top 6. 2008 was a big hit on their image. I understand that they had "tribute" moves to other corps etc... but I think it'll always be held in lesser regard to Phantom when they did 1812 or when Cadets did Candide.
So far Crown just seems to be a corps that plays songs, nothing really beyond that.
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The only problem with moving them up to 2nd that I have is even after for being stationary for so much of the show (it really is an obscene amount), they start bailing out at the end of show. With all the rest time in the show, they really should not have had any endurance issues at the end. Another problem is that much of the harder playing was restricted to small ensembles/solo's while the hornline was tacet. There was just too much to pick at to have them be any higher. Cadets were very good no doubt, but people fail to see why they placed as low as they did.
I don't know just seemed like Mr. Steve Calhoun decided to see things differently finals night for the top 4.
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Does anyone notice a great improvement to DCI hornlines through these last 9 years?
My favorites go to:
2000 Cadets - Loud, that's all I gotta say and I love it (nasty trumpets at the end though)
2000 Blue Devils - What a great great sound and control as they were dashing through
2001 Cadets - Thickest horn book of the 2000s, no questions asked on this one
2003 Blue Devils - Squeaky clean
2004 Blue Devils - Some of the best stylistic interpretations
2005 Cavaliers - Probably the best blend I've heard, I actually thought they should have taken brass
2005 Cadets - LOUD and Squeaky clean (though a little top heavy, everything fit in the pocket so well)
2006 Phantom Regiment - Just a gorgeous sound
2007 Cadets - The most angry, sizzling, loudest hornline of the 2000s. Yeah, Angry.
2008 Carolina Crown - Great sound
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All I can say is that is I think phantom worked their azzez off. It has nothing to do with contending. 1st place winner in any show is the one who had the best show.
I think you should repeat the number 0.025 to yourself a lot before making the 1st place call. Winning DCI by 4 points shows that a corps is making it more obvious (not obvious, but more obvious) that they're better at working the system. When Phantom wins by 0.025, I'd be quite modest walking out, because it takes only one judge to go down the smallest fraction for them to lose. If they tied numerically, Blue Devils would have won considering they won the most captions.
Phantom 2008 was not in the same situation as say 2005 Cadets or 2002 Cavaliers. They were in the same situation as 1987 Cadets, 1992 Cavaliers, 1993 Cadets etc...
Every corps works their azzes off. It's World Class. Logical explanations of 0.025? That's screaming luck. It would have taken one person to doubt a higher spread and they would have lost it. Congratulations 2008 Phantom Regiment for the gold, but a number that small just said if any of the 11 was feeling a hair down, that trophy would be in Concord's office.
Judges are human, and I'm sure they talk. Being a contender means you probably get talk about that corps, whether it was great brass line or "i heard corps X has an awesome guard". All that stuff sticks with them and I'm sure influences their decisions. A corps that wins a certain caption consistently and sometimes undefeatedly would certainly pressure some judges to give certain numbers. This is coming from of course someone's who's judged. It's general perception.
The Cadets - 2014
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
I don't think the Cadets should care if they get jumped tomorrow. For some reason Cadet and Bluecoats may be close in score but they're just two different sauces. One is a crowd pleaser the other one is a "sit down and let me tell shove my message in your face for 10 minutes."
Silver and bronze are both cool colors.