drumcorpsfan4567
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Posts posted by drumcorpsfan4567
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2 minutes ago, CAtenhut said:
I don't hate props at all if they make sense. And believe me, I don't think there is anything wrong with BS's use of props this year.
You have proudly boosted your favorite corps' "unmatched" use of the whole field this year a dozen times and I finally had to point out the minor flaw in your argument.
It makes musical demand significantly harder so there's that. Go Blue Stars!
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RIP... gone too soon 😢
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8 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:
Actors reading the phone book.
How is GE rewarding shows that the fans like when BD has won with boring shows most of the last how many years? I think shows would get more entertaining, not less, if designers didn't feel like they had to follow a specific formula to try and win.
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6 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:
I don't think there's any way to solve that problem, short of having every corps play the same design. Otherwise you're left with the equivalent of actors reading from the phone book: it will demonstrate technical ability but bore the audience to tears.
Actually there's a super easy way to solve that problem. Make GE way less a part of the overall score.
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12 minutes ago, Eleran said:
I've been biting my tongue on posting, but below are my two cents (since everyone is willing to give at least that much to this campaign [note: it would take 5 million of us giving two actual cents to get them to their goal]), not in any particular order:
- Why 24 hours? An obvious speculation would be that they set themselves a deadline to make a decision on the remainder of the tour, before they would leave for their next show on Saturday. They problem with the 24 hour appeal - it doesn't give people like hear on DCP an adequate time to evaluate the facts, leading to nebulous speculation going either way which isn't the fault of the speculators since that's all they have to work with.
- Immediate Crisis or brewing problem? They have had specific campaigns on their website for new trailer(s), food truck appliances, uniforms, fuel, for at least a month (see the dates). Possibly they had stuff up earlier. None of the campaigns even reached 10% of their goals, other than the food truck appliance at 15%. I think this at least clears up that the approximately 75% of what they are currently seeking (35K for trailers, 12K for appliances; 8K in rental vehicle; 15K for corps housing; 30K in equipment replacements) relate to long-term need items that they have known about for a while
- Keeping Up with the Joneses? Someone cited that as a necessity in today's age. And THAT is the fallacy that leads entities to live beyond their means and end up in these holes. Artists may want what they want to created the grand masterpieces in their heads, but a businessperson needs to know when to rein them in. DCI may be heading towards amps, speakers and mics for every member, and props for every inch of the field, but only if the organizations collectively let it happen and follow along like sheep. If you can't afford it, then you can't do it. Pursuit of GE scores cannot override the reality of finances.
- Tour decisions? Why take a one week jaunt to Alabama, Georgia, Virginia and Tennessee unless you knew money would not be a concern? Look at the other corps at those competitions, and aside from Les Stentors coming down for the last two, they are all southern-based open corps. As with the Joneses comments - live within your means.
- Uniforms? the corps has only been around for 9 years, I believe, and according to one Reddit poster, they've already had a number of different uniforms. When was the last time Raiders got a new uniform? And I question if they were even new at the time they got them. Battalion is using hand-me-downs. Again - don't live beyond your means.
- Transparency? I believe any corps which seeks sufficient funds from donations should be willing to make their finances easily available to the public. Garfield has done a lot of work previously with 990s, but it should be right their on their website. If they are unable or unwilling to be that transparent, it will always leave the public with doubts about how their donations might be wasted. A $100k desperation campaign like this should come with more than 5 bullet point needs, especially as vague as "... and additional general operating expectations"
- Personally, I don't like begging. I don't like Go-Fund Me campaigns. I don't like when corps make members cough up 50 names and addresses of friends and family for the corps to pursue for donations. It's just not something I am personally comfortable with. I get that the charitable culture considers it natural, but I am much happier when people who want an experience (for themselves or their children) work hard to raise the necessary funds to pay for it themselves, or if necessary forego the experience as one beyond their means. I know lots of people believe DCI should be cheap or free so all can experience it, but youth sports aren't free; college isn't free; marriage and kids aren't free; world-travel isn't free; few if any great live experiences are. If there are 150 marching members in Legends, then $667 from each member would reach $100,000. That may seem like a lot of cash, but last minute air-plane tickets home from mid-tour might cost nearly as much, and if these problems were long term (which frankly, it seems many were), then that $667 should have been built into the tuition, even if it meant that a few of those kids would have to pass on the season. I sent my son out with Raiders in 2014, the year following their mid-tour financial crisis, knowing that if there was another problem it might fall upon ME to come and get him, at my own expense. That was my choice.
Full disclosure - I have never managed a DCI corps. I did found and run for 5 years (outside of my regular job) a youth sports organization of ~100 kids that included paid staff, uniforms, equipment, facility fees, tournament registrations, etc. The overall budget was not the same as DCI nor the element of road trips, but we lived within our means, were never out of the black, managed to offer the lowest tuition among our competitors, and had competitive success - all paid for by tuition of the members, not donations, sponsors, etc. And we watched competitors fold during that time, stiffing their staff, and cancelling tournaments they couldn't afford to go to - usually because they were lead by former athletes that may have known the sport but couldn't handle running a business. Not so dissimilar, if you ask me.
This times 1000 and by the way, I'll add that I was on the staff of the Raiders that year (who I also donated today in addition to Legends) and the choice with that show was made SPECIFICALLY not to have any new props, uniforms, equipment, etc. because we knew that the corps' financial solvency had to be the #1 priority. We also stopped attending shows in Massachusetts and other places on the east coast before leaving for tour because of the cost involved in that. I haven't been with them since and I think they might have had problems in one of the other years since, but the point is that you need to live within your means as a drum corps and if you are promising a full tour to your members and asking a certain price from them for it, you need to be able to guarantee that you can back that up.
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2 minutes ago, Cainan said:
In most corps, the uniform costs are built in to tour / member fees so that's pretty much a non issue. Did they get more equipment? Most likely as the corps has grown significantly in numbers.. would you prefer they played on Plastitrumpets to save money? And whether we like it or not.."keeping up with the Joneses" is a requirement in todays activities. Gone are the days when there were 300+ corps that could cater for all levels and needs. We have what.. about 45 (70 if you include DCA) corps left... all vying for the cream of the crop talent wise... I aged out of Freelancers in 92... Both BDB and Vanguard Cadets would have EASILY made finals back in my day. Back then, BDB and Vanguard Cadets marched corps sizes of around 50... today each are at the 150 level. The performers are still out there, but there are less corps to attract them, hence the corps HAVE to present a package that those performers want to go to.
As for the performers in Legends.. why should they have to have their summer ruined because of this? They've done nothing to deserve this.Saying that uniform costs are built into tour/member fees is exactly the same kind of speculation that everyone else is doing. We really don't know exactly how they got into this mess and the video from the corps director does not explain things entirely, which makes it seem like things were mishandled. And honestly, it's a sad activity when you have to "keep up with the Joneses" to survive. I gave $25 but I'm giving $50 to a lower placing open class corps that I used to be affiliated with because they seem to be making responsible financial decisions not to try to do too much with their money, but I'm sure they could certainly benefit from it.
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Why shouldn't this money be going to open class corps who apparently have been more financially responsible? It seems like Legends, in addition to other things, bought new uniforms this year. I can't tell if they also bought new playing equipment, but it seems like they are trying to "have their cake and eat it too" here when other open class corps do not make the same types of big purchases to try to "keep up with the jones's" and therefore don't do as well competitively as a result. I know that it would be unfortunate for the drum corps to not go on the road for the rest of the season, but I think there is a valuable lesson for even the youth of the corps to learn here which is...it's a tough world out there where you don't always get everything you want and you have to be smart with your money and not put yourself in situations that will lead to financial ruin. I feel very bad for the corps but when you need 100k raised in 24 hours, that doesn't happen overnight...were they really being smart with what they were trying to accomplish this season.
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I'm not in any way involved with YEA or the Cadets, but for the Cadets to have had the success they have had for all these years, George can't have been ALL bad for the corps...just saying. That's not to say these current criticisms are or aren't deserved.
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Cavaliers have the first show that made me engaged the entire time.
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Haha, guess this is what you get when you're not around the forum too much :P
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For there to be some area of subjective critique is understandable but 40 points of it is too much IMO.Good question, drumcorpsfan. I guess the answer lies in the fact that it provides a "gray area," or area of subjective critique. Because it is based purely on personal assessment with no proven basis for possible subsequent change, it becomes. through definition of use, faultless and indisputable.
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Well, I wasn't even alive during the tic system so I don't know much about it...all I know is I would be in favor of a more performance based system. I agree that I doubt we will see it, but I personally would do two GE judges who both are responsible for 10 points each. Then you could maybe add a guard judge (I've heard people say this is the most subjective performance caption, I'm not a gusrd person myself) and have both visual and music worth 40 points. This way GE would be more the icing on the cake which still helps to determine a winner and is still important but on the whole does weight the scoring more to objectivity.
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Not necessarily looking for the tic system (although I think it might be a better one than we have today), I just think GE should be weighted significantly less. Maybe something like 20 points GE, 40 points each Visual and Music.It seems like youre looking for tics again, which was even worse than today. That will never happen. See I see the whole things as 1 team working together for the best possible product. I think as I said we have gone way beyond in design as well as the importance of a minor mistake in the activity. Now one can argue if thats right or not but it is what it is and IMO I dont think will ever go back.
I dont disagree that there could be less subjectivity ( slightly ) But let me ask something. Do you actually think any outcomes would be different? I dont at all. Corps will work those sheets no matter what they say or how many points are given in a caption.
I think we actually do agree on weight distribution. I think we differ on if it matters or not or if its important who did what as long as the product is a good one and does whatever the intent was.
I see what you are saying about the "best possible product". One trumpet frack or guard drop in reality means very little in the scheme of the whole product and how it is received. However, how a product is received is personal to each individual, even to judges who are using criteria, and I believe that the system is set up to value the personal opinions of the judges more than the summer's worth of work of the 150 individuals on the field working to perfect a show - something I don't think is right. We as obsevers will always take with us opinions about what product we liked the best, what shows we thought worked and what didn't, and which shows we will remember forever as great. They don't have to be the shows that come in 1st or 2nd at finals...and I think that is a-okay.
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I don't disagree that MMs don't bear some of the weight in bringing a design to life, but far more of that burden falls on the designers...would you disagree with me that no corps on earth could have made 09 Phantom a better show than 08 Phantom? (In most people's eyes anyway)
Yes there is subjectivity in performance captions, but if effectively monitored by the judging community as a whole, there should be very little subjectivity. A snare roll is either dirty or it isn't, for instance. As it is I think there is already much less subjectivity in the judging of performance captions than in GE captions.
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We have judges VERY SUBJECTIVELY deciding this. Why should this subjective criteria be what determines the results? And I'm sorry, but while there are instances of subjectivity in evaluating performance captions, there are also many concrete factors which can lead you to objectively determine corps X did something better than corps Y. I was on an open class corps staff for 3 years and was privy to listening to GE tapes as well as listening to the GE judges at critique, and have worked (primarily with one) marching band for the past 7 years, including musically arranging our show last year. The tastes and opinions of GE judges differ quite a lot in my experience and it's not something I hold against them either way because they are doing the job to the best of their ability. It is a problem with the system.We have judges deciding this. Its a judged activity. This can certainly be change if the activity decide this but until then it's what it is. If corps want a return to more weight of execution , then that will happen. Corps will decide what should or shouldn't be. It's kinda the reason DCI was formed to get away from not deciding their own course
Just a note: ask a good execution judge if it was also subjective...it was
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Now.. noone here is saying that performance execution is not critically important. We are saying we notice a shift from performer based to more of a Show Design based system than we have ever seen in DCI ever before.
Agreed with everything you say...now my question is, should that be the case? I think not...like I said there is no reason a show cannot be special to many people even if it doesn't win, and of course that is already the case in many instances (Crown 09 is perhaps my favorite show and it wasn't champion) but I personally think that the best thing for the activity is if the results were most determined by the work of 150 people on the field and not by the few designers, especially as design is more subjective.
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Who is to decide if something works or not? Again, that is so subjective, and as you mentioned judges don't always agree on who should be the winner. My point is this is not the way it should be. If we made the results more about performance (which is much less subjective than GE), it puts the results more in the hands of the performers and gives us a better understanding of why a corps won or didn't win. I have no problem with, for instance, saying that Cavies 2000 should have been an outright winner than Cadets 2000 if we say that Cavies were the better corps on finals night. That doesn't have to mean that Cadets 2000 isn't one of the special shows in the history of the activity.
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Someone answer me this...what is the "purpose" of General Effect as a caption? It would seem that many judges disagree on this.
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Maybe entertaining isn't the right word...but I think that a casual fan most of the time wants to see the shows that they most enjoyed score the best. Any time that doesn't happen, it becomes frustrating unless someone can point to the reason being that the performers of a corps that was to that person more enjoyable did not perform as well as the higher scoring corps. When that isn't the case and when the higher scoring corps wins effect but not the performance captions, lots of questions are raised, the answers of which are usually hard to come by because, again, GE is so subjective.
Yes the members have a role in bringing the design to life, but what design is "brought to life" and what isn't is far more subjective than "this snare roll was dirty, this brass release was bad, this guard member dropped her flag", etc. I would also argue that the designers have a MUCH BIGGER role in bringing a show to life than the performers...in my mind, no corps on earth would have made 09 Phantom better than 08, for instance.
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Lower the amount that GE counts to the main score. Lower the amount that GE counts to the main score. LOWER THE AMOUNT THAT GE COUNTS TO THE MAIN SCORE. I have been saying this for years. In a "youth activity" there is no reason the work of a few designers should outweigh the work of the 150 members on the field, PLUS GE is the most subjective caption, PLUS the GE numbers are usually the most puzzling to the fans because entertaining shows are not necessarily rewarded (NOT a good thing for the growth of the activity).
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I share OP's thoughts wholeheartedly and think he wound up being very right. The Cadets are incredible this year, but the concept held them back IMO. "Tilt" was an interesting concept, "Ten" is not.
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It would look terrible if you had one snare drummer not playing, it would be bad for listening if one snare drummer wasn't playing, and not to mention you would have thousands of people talking about it all season. Glad to hear they have worked things out!
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Back in 2007 when all the talk was about this show and the narration, I was very ready to dislike it. Then I saw the Cadets live in Hershey, and they BLEW ME OUT OF MY SEAT at their opening impact - I got up and went crazy for them. To this day that is my favorite drum corps experience. I'm still kind of glad they didn't win because I didn't want to see shows go in that direction, but they were one of the best corps I've ever seen.
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I haven't seen them yet this year, but I think it's worth pointing out that BAC started slowly both of the last two years and were just fine by season's end. I wouldn't be too worried about them.
Saturday, August 13th 5:30 PM ET “DCI World Championship Finals” Lucas Oil Stadium Indianapolis, Indiana
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Was thinking this too