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RiseUP79

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Posts posted by RiseUP79

    2011 Shows That 'Set New Standards'

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by RiseUP79

    I must admit though...I often find myself clapping when no one else is. I clapped numerous times in finals when I found things to be 'effective' to me...and heard very very few others clapping. Opus 10 and Corona (along with some others) had a lot of those moments for me (and yes, full disclosure: I marched Crown/Corona, so I am somewhat partial to what Michael 'does'). But...another great point to discuss: are things only effective when the audience responds?

    I did not clap once during Onyx, but that didn't mean I didn't think things were 'effective'. Do I think it created the 'effect' that I enjoy or appreciate, no, but I am one person and realize there will be things that I may dislike and others will think are genius (I am still of the opinion they should have been nailed in the downstairs captions, but I agree there were things they excelled at in GE and Ens).

    We all respond in different ways to different things.

    2011 Shows That 'Set New Standards'

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    I will bite. I will divide this into captions.

    Equipment-

    SW

    I have been floored by Trumball for years. This is the first time I think everything was on the next level though. I agree with Scott that their technique is stellar. Their catch technique is amazing. To me they are the gold standard in SW equipment. of course, They didnt win equipment because caption judging is a myth, but thats another topic all together.

    Runner up; West Johnston... underrated in equipment... alot...

    IW

    SCV was the most amazing twirling I have seen since the season finale of Toddlers and Tiaras... Their work is so difficult in a handsy non-traditional way. Well... tradtional for Jim Moore and Greg Legola. There is a third guy who writes for them but the name escapes me. Makes me reconsider strapless rifles, which is (again) another topic.

    Runners up; Corona... They are just fearless. what i like about Shapiro, he pushes his team to through those sevens... a lot of them... with turns... and feet... and (you get the point) Alter Ego... seriously, what are the feeding kids in CT.

    Movement-

    Full disclosure... not my forte.

    SW

    Arcadia- there is a level of polish to their extensions and commitment to length through their movements that turn my crank. Every year.

    runner up; Carmel. They were triad with a capital T! They werent just holding their equipment while dancing. It was full body composition. Loved it. And to do it wearing that uniform with the line... wow.

    IW

    SCV- Again, they have full body equipment that I think is what everyone should aspire to, but too few do.

    runner up; Opus X... they are sooooooooooooooooooo trained. but nothing really new per se. But they set new standards in execution.

    Ensemble-

    SW

    Carmel- moving 24 stools throughout an entire show and it is effortless the entire time. Depth of composition, and the vertically planned events are near perfect.

    Runner-up; Logan. Deconstructed reconstructed WSS. Mark Metzger is out there and I like it.

    IW

    (bring the torches) Onyx- heads are still reeling and eyes are still rolling but this show was an event. It was a game changer in what is considered ensemble. This scares a lot of people but it really gets me thinking of other options as a designer. The how may not have been perfect put there was plenty of WHAT? It reminded me of William Forsyth. Me and Scott disagree on this one. We already moved on. Love you boo!

    runner up; SAC! I was really pulling for them to get 3rd. This was so close with Onyx. I love the music choices and the staging had so much depth while still achieving such clarity. Their equipment book was so demanding and innovative. But... you have to keep it in your hands. God I wanted them to medal!!!

    General Effect-

    SW-

    West Johnston. Interactive colorguard. Duffy did what everyone always joked about... a 3D show. It was a testament that there are still ideas out there to keep colorguard fresh. It was a simple clear idea that was done to the nth degree. and a fleet of plasma screen hdtvs...

    runner-up; Carmel. It wasnt a guard show, it was a motivational clinic.

    IW-

    SCV- intelligent complex design with accessible music woven into orchestral pieces to create a new whole composition. Layering pieces to tell a different story and done the best I have ever seen it.

    Runner-up; Onyx. Being that this is about new standards. Mike really opened up the options for how to achieve effect. Even if you didnt like the show... it was refreshing to see how one can be effective in non-traditional ways. That is where they succeeded in my opinion. I didn't clap once during it. I stood up at the end. In awe. Then screamed my head off.

    Hehe...I really respect your points about Onyx...and everytime I hear someone who obviously takes the time to make educated statements, my views may...JUST may sway a bit. I try to take a look at things with a different perspective when someone intelligent gives me something other than just 'you're crazy'.

    Love your comments overall...great discussion. :-)

    2011 Shows That 'Set New Standards'

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by RiseUP79

    I only mention the difference because (IN MY OPINION) I didn't see many groups that set new standards for the activity this year. I saw plenty of groups that set new standards for themselves, though.

    But I wanted to try and set a tone for the topic BEFORE it turns into "omg, these were my favorites!"

    I'm simply trying to do you a favor so there can be some decent discussion out of this thread, and probably the kind you're looking for.

    Discussion that...YOU deem decent?

    Well...thanks for 'setting the tone' for the rest of us. God forbid people list their 'favorites'.

    2011 Shows That 'Set New Standards'

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    I totally agree with you as per Black Watch , and Carmel. I think what the other poster may have meant was " setting new standards " is something encouraged for success especially in world Class .....unfortunately...often talked about rarely achieved...OH loved Zydeco also

    I personally think we shouldn't really use the term 'setting new standards' in our activity...as standards implies rules or set ways of doing things...and I do not condone artistic rules being placed on any of our teams...they should have the freedom to do whatever they wish. Maybe I should change the title of my thread. BUT...it is on the world class sheets. :-(

    2011 Shows That 'Set New Standards'

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by RiseUP79

    This topic seems like it's less about guards who set new standards and more like 'post your faves!!!'

    There is a difference between shows that set new standards and ones that create audience impact. The former being a show that actually advances the activity towards change. I'm not saying that it's impossible to achieve both simultaneously, though. Carmel this year was a perfect example. An emotional show that the audience loved, along with some quality spinning that set a very high bar for future scholastic ensembles.

    But the two don't automatically go hand-in-hand.

    Sigh.

    I personally believe (that's why I said "my opinion") the groups I listed has a significant impact on the activity...they (in one way or another)...IN MY OPINION set some new standards.

    Do we really have to start arguing about people's opinions in EVERY single thread? It's an artistic activity.

    I listed Black Watch...they certainly weren't "my fave"...they were a team I thought took winterguard in a unique direction.

    Opus 10...much like Carmel spun and danced at a level I do not see often (and with a stylistic choice that is not used all the time)...therefore I feel they 'set the bar very high'.

    I could explain each of my choices...and 'crowd favorites' had nothing to do with those choices. If so, I would have said 'Zydeco'...who I also loved.

    • Like 2

    2011 Shows That 'Set New Standards'

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    Since I was not directly involved with any colorguards in World Class Finals (SW and IW), I would like to discuss who I (and the audience) felt had the greatest impact on and affected the audience (and colorguard) in 2011. Opinions and discussion (ANY AND ALL) welcome!

    Again, these are my personal opinions.

    My picks:

    West Johnston: I have never seen an audience more 'involved' in a show...(and excited about for that matter). Kudos for "setting new standards" in an entertaining way.

    Seminole: Just plain neat and unique...and created a very interesting atmosphere with the set, music, and performers.

    Trumbull: One of the most talented group of high school students I have seen at a winterguard competition. Holy technique, fearlessness, and commitment!

    Carmel: Great, great, great, and near perfect with an amazing message and tear-jerking finals run.

    Black Watch: New, different, and great at colorguard. Over-the-top pageantry in an accessible and likable form.

    Opus 10: Nearly perfect...the subtlety, nuance, and difficulty performed in such a crisp and amazingly well-achieved manner. My favorite of the World Class Finals night.

    SCV: For bringing the audience to a state of peace, passion, and jubilation (clapping and dancing)...proving without a doubt they were the 'ones' that night. It was what I personally needed to make all 'right' again with colorguard.

    There were definitely others...but I would personally like to hear from other fans...

    • Like 1

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    @RiseUp, Very very well said. I saw a few errors, and I'm about as far from a trained eye as you could get! However, I still enjoyed the show and I feel like some are over-reacting like they received 1st place. The judges awarded them the Silver, and while there may have been other groups that might've been better (I liked Braddock and Sac better personally), this is like BD level hate in drum corps.

    That said, I hope they come out next year with a show like '09.

    I personally and politely disagree. While I don't typically 'love' the Blue Devils' productions, I can hardly ever argue that they aren't great at the activity/art they competing in; drum corps (marching, spinning, and playing).

    I think (along with many others I have spoken with) think this situation is different.

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    If people want a forum with only positive comments, compliments, and a place where only 'good' discussion is allowed, I suggest they start a new forum. That's not how any activity gets better, evolves, or grows. Opinions, conversation (with all viewpoints) and personal conviction should be permitted AND encouraged in any artistic activity that is adjudicated.

    • Like 1

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    You should go back and read some of your posts...you obviously do not like Mr. Lentz and Onyx, you've made it quite clear through personal attacks and comments. I'm done with this conversation, it is not helping the activity one bit. as you say...best wishes.

    :doh:

    Your rhetoric is getting so old...

    Since you obviously didn't take the time to read my comments, I will post again.

    What are YOU adding to the productive conversation?

    My contribution to this productive discussion...

    As I have stated before, my concerns do not deal with the show itself. Onyx, along with all other colorguards at WGI have the creative freedom to produce whatever they wish.

    There are things I appreciate about the show; how the designers manipulate space, the ability of the strength of the performers regarding improvisation (and this is NOT easy). References to matters of art; such as clear plastic symbolizing transparency (or non-transparency) and the decisions artists make concerning those. The end of the show...the work referencing the bluebird by Charles Bukowski; a very powerful poem with a strong subject matter.

    My concerns are and always have been how this show relates to our current adjudication system. The sheets, broken down in a basic kind of way are "what", and "how". What is being displayed (the composition or content) and "how" it is being displayed. In the upstairs captions, GE and Ensemble, I think Onyx is actually quite strong...and deserves a lot of credit for how the show is constructed. Downstairs, in the Individual Analysis captions, I personally blame the judges for giving way too much credit.

    Our activity is still (like it or not) adjudicated as colorguard. Colorguard, much like drum corps, is and always has been, in large part, about cleanliness, clarity, and how well unison efforts are performed by all performers in view. It's the nature of what we do...and comes from the history and evolution of colorguard/drum corps.

    I'm going to give you three examples of moments in Onyx's show that I think display significant weakness in the movement and equipment captions. NO, I do not sit and study this video (these are the moments that 'bugged' me when I saw the show)...and YES, every group, even the world champions have these problems every year. But, if/when I sit and watch Onyx, these moments occur many many times; it's just that many folks can't (or choose not) to see because of the chaotic nature of the show, therefore, I feel the cleanliness and achievement of choreographed parts (what EVERYONE is adjudicated on) were mostly disregarded. I am looking at the show from the perspective of an instructor/tech and from an adjudication point of view:

    1.) At the :30 point on the prelims performance on fan network...if you watch the first ensemble movement statement, timing is extremely poor, positions of bodies are all different from performer to performer; some arms are together, some are apart, some upper bodies are upright, some are leaning forward in a lunge position. Some performers actually have their feet turned in, while some are turned out. I personally don't feel most would consider this movement part difficult at all...its pretty basic actually (in my opinion), and there are a few counts between each 'move', so it is easy to sample how different many people look on the floor in each position; and this IS supposed to be a unison part.

    2.) Sample the technique of the performer running across the '50' at 1:13 when he does what appears to be a sauté; a very basic dance move utilized by every colorguard at WGI. The judges know moves such as sautés, and reference and comment about the execution and technique of these on their 'tapes'. I would consider this VERY poorly achieved; the muscular control of this performer looks very weak; and every time I watched the show, he looked like he did not have control of his body on the efforts he was performing. These can be found all throughout the show with many of the performers...and the adjudicators factually react negatively towards performers that look like this in all other shows. If you do not understand what I am saying, find the recorded comments of any movement judge from any winterguard competition, and listen to it.

    3.) From an equipment point of view, if you watch the flag entrance at 1:18, these performers enter in a 'canon'...but if you look closely, they are not performing the part (which is the same, just at different times) the same at all. Hands are in different positions on the pole, different planes are being explored, and then, when we reach an ensemble statement, the same issues apply AND there are significant timing issues...it's not clean. Also check out the position of the leg on the catch of the 45 toss...different on each and every performer. BUT, the untrained eye would have a hard time noting this because they are all facing different directions with a alot of 'chaos' occurring around the choreographed part. Again...this can be found constantly throughout the show.

    To reiterate, I do not have an issue with Onyx's choices...I have an issue that they are receiving a very high level of credit for things that our sheets are based on (particularly the Ind. Analysis captions). To me, this is an adjudication issue for the judging community; which is why I have been very outspoken about how I feel this affects the activity. My personal problem with Mike Lentz deals with how rude he was when I brought up these concerns...off topic.

    I know some of on this forum will not understand this because they do not know (or take the time to study) our sheets or adjudication system, but think of it in marching band or drum corps terms...we still judge performer's postures, marching technique, cleanliness of playing, etc.

    I wonder: how might folks react if a top 12 drum corps came out with performers facing different directions, playing different parts, marching different tempos, and mostly all with different technique for an entire show? It would certainly be an interesting experiment...one I am not opposed to seeing...and seeing how it affects a drum corps audience.

    • Like 1

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    Its possible that the guard that used a similar drill style to onyx wasnt rewarded because the guards execution wasnt as up to par as it is when Onyx does it...and that the judges didnt understand because the performers didnt deliver it strongly enough for the judges to see it...just because they did it...doesnt mean they did it well. Im of course trying to point out a possibility....i dont know of course....just trying to keep the discussion going...its an interesting topic!!! :) I do know of course that there are double standards in WGI...but Onyx was in 6th place in 09, and 8th in 08...they werent a judges favorite...by any means....is it impossible for them to have actually earned the place they have now?

    :-) Now we're discussing! Some interesting points!

    Although, I personally consider 6th place in IW nothing to shake your head at...it takes many groups years and years to break in that top tier in IW.

    '09...Onyx...loved that show. One of my favorites of the year. I think they were definitely headed in a unique, interesting, emotionally intriguing direction in 08 and 09 (and getting quite good at being 'them') and then seemed to "switch it up" in '10.

    2010 Onyx certainly was one of three guards I think deserved to win (in my opinion). I thought it was very unique and they were good at 'it'.

    • Like 2

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    Hey, buddy. That horse you've been beating looks like it's been dead for a WHIIIIIIIIILE.

    Nobody cares anymore. Your beef with the Mike Lentz? Nobody cares. You didn't like Onyx's show? Nobody cares. The season's done, and you can't change the results. Additionally, that comment doesn't sound at all productive or relevant.

    As for your comments on technical issues, sure they are there. And as such, they pointedly did not win equipment or movement. But I'd like to see you do that drill and try to have a completely perfect run. It looks exhausting. Also, there's so much to their show that I'm sure there's a lot to clean. Give it another year, and you may have more perfection, but there's only so much time in a season. Also, I think some of the tosses where they just chuck a rifle into the air, let it spin somewhat randomly and catch it however they can are weird as hell, and it would never be a design choice in my equipment book. But it's a different approach to the weapon, and I can respect that. We think of color guard equipment as only being able to be spun and tossed in certain ways, which in many ways is related to the history of the activity, and I think that they are trying to look for alternative options previously unexplored.

    The same can be said to their movement. I think last year's groupings with more ensemble movement, even if it was groups of 3 or 4 dancers, benefitted them better than this years, where many more individualized movement segments are found, that stuck out more. But I appreciate the different, unique approach they had this year, and I think that is what probably enticed the judges. Their ability to take something and say, "Well, this is what the audience knows, what is familiar. How can we step outside of that box, while attempting to create our own identity?" is something that I personally feel should be rewarded.

    Onyx's show? I have absolutely no idea what it was specifically about. But I do think the one thing they wanted to do was get the audience out of its mental confines for the activity, and nobody can deny that they achieved that goal.

    I do wish they had spun more flag.

    I love when people craftily pull a fraction of a post out to quote and then use it out of context. (If you read further, I said my personal feelings following his reaction is off topic...and I didn't take it any further).

    I think you bring up great points, and although I may not agree with all of your comments, I am not going to callously say "nobody cares" what you think.

    It's a discussion forum...and clearly you cared enough about what I had to say to respond.

    In any case...interesting and well-thought out post.

    • Like 3

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    wow, thats it? I was kind of expecting more than 3 technical concerns for as much noise as you've made. huh.

    If you would take some time to actually educate yourself and READ what people are saying, you would see that I said these issues occur throughout the entire show.

    "Noise"...now educated comments are "noise". I suspect you're one of those people that is always the victim when you go into critique and hear "noise" from the judges. If you even teach colorguard, that is.

    I have yet to see YOU make an educated comment...all you do is attack people for having points of view and opinions. Do me a favor...say something worthwhile for all of us to read? I'll wait...

    • Like 3

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    I was being a tad sarcastic, but in reality this topic has mostly been personal attacks and not a productive conversation. People really need to get over it and move on.

    If an intelligent conversation on the show design is wanted, may I suggest a new topic and leave the negative comments and personal attacks out of it.

    An intelligent conversation was started...negative comments and personal attacks were not part of it...and you still whine and complain.

    The topic is Onyx...that is what is being discussed. In a productive manner even. What is the need for a new topic?

    Might I suggest you stop looking here if you have such issues with (and problems contributing to) an intelligent conversation about 'flags in a gym'...which is what this entire forum is here to discuss.

    Scott Markham

    • Like 2

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted

    I mean really...it is flags in a gym. There are more important things in the world to be SO concerned about. Join the judging task force if this bothers you so much, write them, call your congressman. But really..let it go. It is over, they won the silver medal.

    ROFL...and there went the productive discussion.

    • Like 2

    Onyx

    in CGP General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by RiseUP79

    My contribution to this productive discussion...

    As I have stated before, my concerns do not deal with the show itself. Onyx, along with all other colorguards at WGI have the creative freedom to produce whatever they wish.

    There are things I appreciate about the show; how the designers manipulate space, the ability of the strength of the performers regarding improvisation (and this is NOT easy). References to matters of art; such as clear plastic symbolizing transparency (or non-transparency) and the decisions artists make concerning those. The end of the show...the work referencing the bluebird by Charles Bukowski; a very powerful poem with a strong subject matter.

    My concerns are and always have been how this show relates to our current adjudication system. The sheets, broken down in a basic kind of way are "what", and "how". What is being displayed (the composition or content) and "how" it is being displayed. In the upstairs captions, GE and Ensemble, I think Onyx is actually quite strong...and deserves a lot of credit for how the show is constructed. Downstairs, in the Individual Analysis captions, I personally blame the judges for giving way too much credit.

    Our activity is still (like it or not) adjudicated as colorguard. Colorguard, much like drum corps, is and always has been, in large part, about cleanliness, clarity, and how well unison efforts are performed by all performers in view. It's the nature of what we do...and comes from the history and evolution of colorguard/drum corps.

    I'm going to give you three examples of moments in Onyx's show that I think display significant weakness in the movement and equipment captions. NO, I do not sit and study this video (these are the moments that 'bugged' me when I saw the show)...and YES, every group, even the world champions have these problems every year. But, if/when I sit and watch Onyx, these moments occur many many times; it's just that many folks can't (or choose not) to see because of the chaotic nature of the show, therefore, I feel the cleanliness and achievement of choreographed parts (what EVERYONE is adjudicated on) were mostly disregarded. I am looking at the show from the perspective of an instructor/tech and from an adjudication point of view:

    1.) At the :30 point on the prelims performance on fan network...if you watch the first ensemble movement statement, timing is extremely poor, positions of bodies are all different from performer to performer; some arms are together, some are apart, some upper bodies are upright, some are leaning forward in a lunge position. Some performers actually have their feet turned in, while some are turned out. I personally don't feel most would consider this movement part difficult at all...its pretty basic actually (in my opinion), and there are a few counts between each 'move', so it is easy to sample how different many people look on the floor in each position; and this IS supposed to be a unison part.

    2.) Sample the technique of the performer running across the '50' at 1:13 when he does what appears to be a sauté; a very basic dance move utilized by every colorguard at WGI. The judges know moves such as sautés, and reference and comment about the execution and technique of these on their 'tapes'. I would consider this VERY poorly achieved; the muscular control of this performer looks very weak; and every time I watched the show, he looked like he did not have control of his body on the efforts he was performing. These can be found all throughout the show with many of the performers...and the adjudicators factually react negatively towards performers that look like this in all other shows. If you do not understand what I am saying, find the recorded comments of any movement judge from any winterguard competition, and listen to it.

    3.) From an equipment point of view, if you watch the flag entrance at 1:18, these performers enter in a 'canon'...but if you look closely, they are not performing the part (which is the same, just at different times) the same at all. Hands are in different positions on the pole, different planes are being explored, and then, when we reach an ensemble statement, the same issues apply AND there are significant timing issues...it's not clean. Also check out the position of the leg on the catch of the 45 toss...different on each and every performer. BUT, the untrained eye would have a hard time noting this because they are all facing different directions with a alot of 'chaos' occurring around the choreographed part. Again...this can be found constantly throughout the show.

    To reiterate, I do not have an issue with Onyx's choices...I have an issue that they are receiving a very high level of credit for things that our sheets are based on (particularly the Ind. Analysis captions). To me, this is an adjudication issue for the judging community; which is why I have been very outspoken about how I feel this affects the activity. My personal problem with Mike Lentz deals with how rude he was when I brought up these concerns...off topic.

    I know some of on this forum will not understand this because they do not know (or take the time to study) our sheets or adjudication system, but think of it in marching band or drum corps terms...we still judge performer's postures, marching technique, cleanliness of playing, etc.

    I wonder: how might folks react if a top 12 drum corps came out with performers facing different directions, playing different parts, marching different tempos, and mostly all with different technique for an entire show? It would certainly be an interesting experiment...one I am not opposed to seeing...and seeing how it affects a drum corps audience.

    Scott Markham

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