Phantom1701
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Posts posted by Phantom1701
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My question is this? What difference will it make to you if BD wins, The Cavies, or the Cadets? I mean really, a week after championships, will it really matter? Just enjoy drum corps and give the corps credit. Opinions welcome. It's fine to agree or disagree with the judges. Life goes on.
Well, nothing except that it is a competitive activity and I'm sure there are plenty of kids marching not in a BD, Cavies, or Cadets uniform who would like to experience the feeling of being a champion, even just for a night. If it didn't matter to anyone, then the corps would all perform in exhibition every night and no one would keep score.
I take your point though and I agree, but wouldn't it be nice to see BAC or Glassmen or even Teal Sound one day win a championship? I personally think that would be a good thing for the activity, because as it stands right now you have some very talented performers leaving their regional corps to go and audition for BD, Cavies, Cadets, etc. so they have a shot at winning. So that tells me it matters to kids to want to compete for the championship. So if you have a judging system that seems predisposed to rotating the championship around BD and 1 or 2 other corps ever year, then it's hard to convince them to stay and march with their local corps if they want a shot.
Maybe Crown can break the trend this year, but I just get the sense that when it's all said and done BD will emerge victorious once again. I guess time will tell. But it is a competitive activity. That's why it matters.
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But again, YOU have not provided any specific examples. Whether you stated it directly or not, the phrasing you previously chose to use implies a disagreement with the scores the Blue Devils has gotten in the past or is presently getting. To state that judging bias is resulting in a higher score IS stating that they didn't "earn" the score they got because that means that bias/preference (whether in small or large part) led to a score rather than someone judging objectively against the criteria they were given and in relation to the other performances surrounding them.
In essence, you finally admitted what Lance was driving at this whole time. And again, you haven't provided examples substantiating your theory, which is what Lance asked for about a half-dozen times. In the absence of examples where the Blue Devils were clearly, objectivelybelow a certain corps and yet were scored higher, then all your comments really do is reveal a bias on YOUR part, not the judges'.
Now, I'm not saying you're not entitled to your bias. many people here have an affinity toward one corps another. But it seems like your reasonsing is that if the scores don't match your preference, then it MUST be judging bias.
You and Lance are trying to win an argument by asking me to produce that which you know full well cannot be produced. Even if I do give you an exact year, exact caption instances, you would just conclude in the end that it is just my opinion anyway and the judges saw it differently. So going down that path is a non-starter, but it's a clever way to try and slam the door on an argument that you don't like.
But I can believe, despite your protesting to the contrary, that the overall results on a year-over-year basis demonstrate in-and-of-itself a wholesale bias towards BD on the part of judges. Again, this is just my opinion and I am entitled to it. If you don't like it I'm sorry. Stop posting and the thread will go away faster.
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I don't mind people taking swipes at me. I react to bizarre criticism of most corps, but I have no problem admitting that my affinity with BD causes me to react more strongly in those cases. I at least appreciate Phantom1701 for having the fortitude to talk to me, and not about me. That's at least thoughtful and civilized.
I don't like a lot of recent Cavies shows, but I would be just as offended if I saw anybody saying they haven't earned their placements, which is exactly what Phantom1701 was saying.
Again Lance you are guilty of misinterpreting what I have said and trying to put words into my mouth that I didn't say. As a forum MOD you should be much more careful about these sorts of things.
Let me be VERY clear on this point so that you don't miss it this time, because I think you actually have many reading this thread believing that I said something that I didn't.
EVERY corps EARNS their score in that these kids work so unbelievably hard, regardless of what uniform they suit up in, and they are judged according to their work. What I AM saying is that it is my belief that many DCI JUDGES have a special affinity, appreciation, or outright bias towards BD that transcends most other corps. So whether that translates into a judge giving them the benefit of the higher score or even scoring another corps below them in their caption, I think is a very real possibility. Now, would I say that BD maybe didn't earn that score even in a case like that, NO. The reason being is that judging is a subjective thing anyway, so what the judge scores is DCI gospel. Nothing added or taken away, by anyone. So by definition corps earn what they earn and that's that. Do they earn their exact score without any sort of bias whatsoever on the part of the judges, well obviously I don't think that is always the case and THAT is the point I am trying to make.
Now have any other corps benefited from judging bias in the past, ABSOLUTELY including my beloved PR. How about this for objectivity? I think Pipitone and Prosperie scored PR's drumline higher last year by a few ticks each and even scored the other lines a bit lower in order to give PR a chance at the title. If you look deep in the scores that was a big differential and had they scored BD even .1 each higher each BD would again have won the title. The minute the recap was posted last August that is the first box I looked to and wasn't at all surprised at what I had seen in the way of differentials.
Does that mean PR's drumline didn't earn what they got, of course not. They were amazing last year as is BD most every year, but you could look at that and maybe say that others earned more than they were given credit for by Prosperie and Pipitone. Either way bias existed, imo.
So to wrap this up it is simply my belief that BD has made many fans of the DCI judging community and it reflects in the way they score them versus other corps year in and year out. Does that make BD bad, no. Does that mean they didn't work hard or earn their success, no. It just means that judges like what they have seen and over the years and show their appreciation for those achievements when writing down their scores. It's just my opinion, but I'm entitled to it.
Nation of Brass probably made the case more eloquently than I did, but I would never say these kids didn't earn something they got. But as long as judging and placing drum corps performances relies on the subjectivity of individual judges there will always be an opportunity for bias to creep into the scores.
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You're certainly on to something here.
I've been around long enough to have taken notice of how consistently Lance reacts to criticism of BD. He likes sarcasm and beating up straw men, for sure. I've even argued with him in a chat room and he's gone as far as to tell me that my experiences with the Blue Devils were just me "seeing what I wanted to see" and nothing more.
I don't mind people having strong allegiance toward any corps, as long as they're willing to engage in thoughtful, civilized discussion on the topic at hand. In this very thread, we have Lance asking for someone to give him specific examples of years where BD was given a gift in placement, but yet, when the topic of BD's chairs came up, rather than finding a logical justification, the defense was "well those others corps have done it, too" in a sarcastic manner.
I love supporting my corps in any way I can, but I learned a long time ago to take any criticism they receive with a grain of salt. I must admit I wonder about fans of corps who are more violently offended by criticism than alumni.
Yeah, it certainly seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle here. He's entitled to his opinion and so am I.
I even made the point that the Cavies have probably benefited from some bias as well over the past 10 years, but that comment went by relatively unnoticed because it's all about defending the big blue.
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Unless you're a judge, no way you can (obviously) give an objective statment. But it doesn't stop hundreds, if not thousands of people getting on here regularly every day to give their opinions.
And what would this site be if no one was posting nonsense, conspiracy theory BS? It's what we do. It's why we're here.
hell, even judges can't give an objective statement. It's the beauty of art.
I know...if they applied the same logic to this thread as all the other threads on this forum you'd hear the crickets chirping. I guess I'm the only poster to ever give an unsubstantiated opinion on here.
In that case I'm happy to be the first.
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State a specific year. Then prove the judging bias by checking the recaps and using your judging experience to point out where the judges showed bias. Oh wait? You can't? Seems like this whole conversation has been useless.
How about you just say "I like Phantom more than I like BD." That would be a valid statement and noone can argue with it, and then you can stop posting nonsense, conspiracy theory BS and we can all forget this thread ever existed.
And yet you still saw fit to weigh in. Nothing grows that you don't feed.
I do happen to like Phantom more than BD......most years, but not all believe it or not.
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Phantom has to work harder for their scores than BD. It's just so unfair.
See now you get it. But it's not just Phantom, it's everyone not named BD! ;-)
Come on...allow yourself to laugh....it's just a friendly discussion amongst honks.
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I have no problem admitting I'm a BD honk, either, but I try very hard to be at least somewhat objective. It'll take a great deal for you to convince me that you really do.
Calling PR out as having a dull/boring show with no chance of repeating doesn't at least hint at my ability to be objective? Then yes, I'm sure it would be very difficult to convince you otherwise, so I won't bother to even try.
They only way I guess I can really back up my bias theory is to visit an alternate universe and have PR and BD switch shows this year and see who ends up placing higher.
Oh, but I'm just a crazy honk living in an alternate universe already. Duh, almost forgot.
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It's not like it takes a post-graduate linguistics degree to infer that you thought BD should've come in 2nd by more last year, and therefore, that the only way they didn't was as a gift from the judges. I'm simply asking you to be specific.
Sorry man, using the term "gift" is a stretch. I never came close to saying anything like that.
I'm sure you can guess by the way I post I'm not afraid to speak my mind and on more than one occasion in my life I've said something I shouldn't have and had to eat my words, but you are trying to put words into my mouth.
It's fair to interpret from my comments that in general I think BD has been the recipient of some judging bias which has helped their scores over the years. All that means is that PR (or any corps for that matter) has to be just that much better in order to beat them. THat's a far cry from saying they were gifted a lower margin of defeat in 2008.
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I'm curious as to if it's even possible that Phantom may have gotten a teeny little bit of bias in both years they won.
If anybody is going to accuse that of BD, then surely they can at least entertain the thought that it has happened to their favorite corps. Just maybe?
Absolutely, but it's not as strong of a case when it only happened twice in the last 12 years as compared to BD's track record over that same amount of time. And all that bias accounted for a cumulative +.0125 total scoring advantage over BD in those years. That's a pretty weak argument, but I'm just a PR honk anyway, right?
While you are trying to paint me as wearing only Phantom colored glasses, I'm a reasonable person who can be objective. As a matter of fact I think PR's show this year is very dull and boring. They are executing well enough up to this point, but unless they make some major changes they have no chance of repeating or even making the top 3 IMO. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but that's what it looks like from my seat.
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But you are doing just that right...
...here. I'm just asking you to be specific. That's all.
Fair enough....send me all the judges sheets from the last 10 years. I'll watch all of the performances again, score them my way and get back to you.
In all seriousness I'm looking at is the track record of overall placement in the last 15 years and basing my conclusion of bias upon that. If that's folly, then it's folly, but as I said I call it as I see it.
You've also said that the judges gave BD a gift by coming in 2nd last year by a small margin. Can you elaborate please, because I'm fascinated by that.Lance, come on man. I never typed the words "the judges gave BD a gift by coming in second last year". That's your interpretation of what I said, but that was not what I was saying at all. You know for all your criticisms of "crazies" on this board it certainly seems as though I've hit a particular never with you. One could certainly infer from your comments you might have a little, dare I say BIAS yourself towards BD? You seem to be taking the comments personally. Fairly strange behavior for a forum MOD.
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Corps at the top are usually the ones taking the most heat from fans here at DCP.
I won't mention corps by name, but there are many corps in the lower placing range, that "don't do it for me".....I just kind of find it funny that many people will have the courage to bash a top tier corps, but are too afraid to actually bring up things they might not like about lower corps.
No one wants to bully a lower corps, but many want to be the lil chihuahua barking at a doberman.
That's what comes with the cake and the party hat. It happens in all aspects of life. The team, group, band, corps, player on top always has a bullseye on their back with everyone taking a shot at them. Far less people even pay attention to what is happening with lower placing groups. That's just how it goes.
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not a swipe at any corps. i dont like it when anybody does it.
That may be, but it was clear who you were referencing in that particular statement.
And Lance.... I didn't bring up the margin that PR beat BD by last year as to say they should have beaten them by X amount or Y amount. But rather just how difficult it is for any corps to pass them and when they do it's rarely by very much. I'm not saying that PR was 2 points better or 10 points better (not that it's even possible), but rather making the point of how close they came to tying (again) or even coming in 2nd to BD.
As to what years they didn't "earn" it. Well, it's an impossible to even go down that path simply because the sheets and the scores are what they are. I wouldn't presume to put my 1 opinion ahead of 8 or 9 judges who are looking only at very specific things when I am one person looking at the whole. The point I am trying to make is that bias exists, whether you want to believe or accept that or not. It's human nature and it's my belief that BD has been the recipient of some bias over the years. If I'm wrong about that, then so be it. I just call them as I see them.
And as to the point about Cavies...well, that's another story, but yes it seemed for awhile there that they were getting some very favorable treatment by the judges as well when every year the shows were starting to look and sound the same. But as others have pointed out, executing to the sheets and designing shows around the sheets is what is being rewarded these days. That is apparently acceptable for certain corps and others prefer to stick to their style and let the chips fall where they may. (ie Madison, PR, Cadets)
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Lance is fiesty tonight.
I can see where people think there's too much favoritism shown to the Top 3 just because they're who they are. it's kind of like curtsying Queen Elizabeth II because she has a title.
i think this goes back to the inherit problem with fans not understanding that GE on the sheets and GE from the stands aren't the same entity.
Well, you are right, but maybe it should be. Or at least something a little more balanced.
At the end of the day, like so many other sport and entertainment vehicles, without they paying customers there would be no DCI. If Hollywood stopped making movies that people wanted to see, there'd be no more Hollywood. The good thing for DCI is that there is usually some corps out there that "rings the bell" for most people, regardless of whether or not they are crowned the champion. ie. Crown 2007, PR 1993, Velvet Knights 1992, Madison 1996, etc.
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what you're missing as that for the most part. they are out performing people. they may not have a show that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy. but they are always top notch in the execution scoring which is 60% of the score. and really more when you think about how quality of performance increases GE. but who cares about execution right? its all about overplaying long chords for the last 2 minutes of the show so that they can get a standing ovation?
Nope, not missing that at all. They are masters at execution, there is no doubt.
But I like how in your attempt to make a rational case for your corps you take a swipe at another in your last sentence there. As I recall a certain corps dressed in blue also came into the bit and played trip forte in an attempt to garner the same reaction from the crowd. I guess everybody does what they have to, right?
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Well, it's a good thing then that me and the OP are the only biased people then in all of drum corps. shewww...that's a relief.
Because for a minute there I was thinking that every judge had their own personal "Enjoyment Factor" box, but that's just crazy talk as we know that they judge solely on merit and the requirements for each box. Otherwise there could also be such a thing as judging bias, but of course we know that never happens.
Look BD is a great corps and their performers are top notch. I said as much in my original post.
And I am a fan of PR, the Cadets and some others and those corps don't always put out a good show. In fact PR has probably had more mediocre shows than great shows in their history. But the difference is they don't win the championships in those years. BD can have an off year and they are no lower than 2nd and on a very slight instance 3rd. On the one hand that's a testament to the caliber of their organization, but at the same time it does beg the question. Why do the judges never see them as having an "off year"? Is it really because they are that good or is it because the judges give them the benefit of the doubt because of their overall level of accomplishment. Who knows, but it's reasonable to ask the question.
You'd think by complete accident they'd come in 4th one year, but it seems unlikely that will ever happen. At least not any time soon.
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The Blue Devils have nearly lost me as a fan. I used to really look forward to their shows, but lately they have really weak show concepts to me.
The chairs this year are so distracting, the music is so inaccessible, and they seem to build the show around big moments, hot licks, and hype instead of substance.
As I watched the show in Denver last night I couldn't help but contrast the Cavies and BD. I brought a first time viewer to the show and she was totally captivated by the show design, the excellence, the engagement f the Cavies. I was too. Halfway through the BD's opener she was texting her friends and was bored. I was too.
I don't get the performance scores either. Cavies were cleaner and the ensemble was tighter to me.
I don't get it. What am I missing?
You are missing the complete love fest that DCI and the judges have for BD. They are the equivalent of the LA Lakers, USC, Dallas Cowboys, and New York Yankees of DCI. They are the "darlings" and have so many followers and fans all over the country because they win it all just about every year. Like it or no success breads success whether real or imagined.
I very rarely have found their shows entertaining post 1995 with just a few notable exceptions. Now, they do a helluva job and the performers and talent are just amazing, but the shows just don't do anything for me personally. I admire what they've achieved, but I can take them or leave them most years.
Look at last year for an example. Here you have a show in PR's Spartacus that was probably the most impactful and emotional shows in the last 15 to 20 years and they just barely beat out a very boring BD show for the championship. It's almost as if it's theirs to lose every year instead of theirs to earn. I don't have a problem with the kids, I have a problem with the mentality that I think many in the activity have with regards to BD. I mean, when was the last time SCV or any one else even to them in an early year, west coast show? It's a joke.
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heck, why do they have to be on it at all? lol. j/k!
Classic.
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Yes, very true. It seems like some have been off almost 2 weeks.
Yes, this thread is worthless due to the rainout in Orlando. It tells us nothing. For all we know Crown could be atop this board.
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At least in the dome you won't get rained out like we did in Orlando. I was really looking forward to seeing the shows.
Best of luck to all is SA!
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A good synopsis by NakedEye.
It's just frustrating as I've been attending shows at the Citrus bowl is 1996 and rain has always been a factor on show days at one point or another, including the 4 or so times finals were held there. So you come to expect it, but today was frustrating in that it didn't rain at all during the day and it seemed like the only area that got any storms was right around the stadium and downtown. Still for most of us it's the only show in Florida anymore and it is pretty well attended, so I'm sure it's worth it for DCI to keep having here.
Maybe having it earlier as others suggested might be a good idea. The problem is you just end up trading the rain for the heat.
Crown was surprisingly good and loud. They members all seemed to be at least 19 from the eyeball check. Very loud for sure, but to me they are still just covering other corps signature songs from over the years. They really don't have their own identity yet. Still they perform at a high level, but I'd like to see them really stop playing music that other corps are noted for.
PR didn't seem as into it tonight. After a full day of rehearsal and a chance to compete head to head with Crown doing a standstill was probably the last thing on their minds. Still they showed a lot of class having the guard come out and they did a very coordinated standstill arc, whereas the other corps just winged it. I got the impression they were holding a lot back, especially volume wise. I guess they figured if they weren't being judged why blow your chops. They did play the closer from their 89 Dvorak show, which I really, really enjoyed. Still one of my top 5 shows of all time, so I enjoyed that.
I'm sure most left there feeling like Crown had won the battle of the standstills though, at least from a volume standpoint.
Oh, BTW.....I thought Teal Sounds horns and drums were excellent. They have the best group of performers I think they've ever hard and sounded great tonight. It's a very entertaining show musically and probably the first time I'll actually make a point to listen to their show when the CD comes out later this year. Really good stuff.
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220 sounds like a train wreck in the making.
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Wow this thread got hijacked. Move the drill debate to another page unless it has to do with PR.
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From DCI
1 Phantom Regiment 81.900
2 Boston Crusaders 80.400
3 Blue Stars 79.000
4 Glassmen 78.100
5 Spirit 74.350
Open Class
1 Teal Sound 75.100
2 Legends 61.550
All age corps
1 Atlanta CorpsVets 72.113
2 Sun Devils 55.713
I'm starting to wonder if PR will even break 85 this year. They seem to be stuck right around 80 for a week now with no real score progression. Maybe all of the rewriting is working against them. It's fair to say that Crown will be several points ahead in Orlando. PR looks like they'll have their hands full just staying in 2nd. What a difference a year makes.
What am I missing?
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Lance...go back and read. I specifically mention Cavies and even PR's finals night percussion score in 2008 as examples of other corps receiving bias. So I never said that it's just BD that has benefited from favoritism. I am saying though that it's my believe they benefit from it more often than most other corps.
It's like college football. They do a pre-season ranking. Those rankings are based on writer's opinions of how good teams are going to be based on # of players returning, coaching, star players, etc. Those are all preconceived notions of the writers that become part of a formula used to determine where a team is going to place. Of course it's all conjecture until some actual games are played and then teams move up or down based on results. But, if you think this team is the best going into the season, they either have to be beaten or another team has to really outshine them on a given week to take the top spot from them.
That's kind of how I see BD. They are the #1 ranked team until proven otherwise in the minds of the judges because of their legendary staff and success over the years, IN MY OPINION. And that's not really a bad thing if you are BD.
You are making bias out to be such a bad thing when in reality bias is simply earned respect and admiration reflected in some measurable way.
It's like if Michael Jordan is in a slam dunk contest. Before he even dribbles to the hoop the judges have some expectation that whatever he does it's going to be great. Why, because he's Michael Jordan. So even if his dunks was a little off, they still give him the trophy because he's Michael Jordan. Does that mean Michael didn't have to actually dunk the basketball, no? Does that mean the other players were terrible or that they didn't have any good dunks, no? I just means that people can be predisposed towards rewarding what and who they like because at the end of the day judging is 100% subjective and judges are only human.