JulesBry
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Posts posted by JulesBry
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I just do not see the need for anything special like that...balance is balance.
Except that it seems to be judged sporadically. I've not seen the sheets, so I can't say for sure, but if the balance is so bad (as in the case of some Cavies shows this year) as to make the show unbearable for a large part of the audience, that should be grounds for a last place finish. Imagine if the percussion were so loud throughout a show that no one could hear the brass. How would that affect scoring? My thinking is, if you're going to use electronics, you had better use them flawlessly--especially if they're being run by a non-youth participant (which also gets under my skin).
No, but those things help make the shows desirable to lots of people (not you and some here, obviously). I doubt very many people go to hear the orchestra bells...let's eliminate that too.
So it's better to include things that almost no one would miss at the expense of losing certain fans than to eliminate something that almost no one would miss to keep more fans? Is that the trade-off that is best for DCI's future? To me, that makes absolutely no sense. I say plug the hole and fill the bucket faster.
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I know I've committed to trying to be more open minded, but I have to say I like 1 and 2.
3 - puts home field advantage at an all time high. If I'm in the stands, SCV wins, no matter what. That ain't good.....
Then let's at least make it a people's choice award. Imagine if a visiting corps wins a crowd award over the hometown corps. It would be a rare occurrence, but that might mean more to certain corps than a DCI championship.
And while you're being more open-minded, you might consider voting for someone other than SCV.
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Weren't you leaving?
Right after I stop being attacked by people who don't read what I've written.
(If you had done more than a drive-by, you'd know that I plan to leave when this thread dies down. But you keep stirring it up. Ironic, isn't it?)
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The constant desire for the activity to reinvent itself has left thousands and thousands behind. If it hadn't, the sheer volume of alumni from the early years when there had been 40+ corps compete in the top class alone, would fill every venue and more so of the current tour schedule.
The thing that bothers me is when these "innovations" have been proposed as ways to expand fandom. No one ever discussed the losses those innovations would also bring.
I think it's cool that people who have become dissatisfied at least make an attempt to communicate WHY they left. Thousands and thousands just disappeared from the activity without saying anything.
Thank you for that. And you make an EXCELLENT point. What would DCI look like today if it had managed to retain a higher percentage of its age-outs over the years? This is exactly what I'm trying to say. It's a lot more difficult to fill a bucket with holes than to fill a bucket without holes. Evaporation is much slower than a leak.
DCI, find a way to keep the dinos around without alienating the zygotes. It CAN be done, but it will require some deep thinking and a few changes. Don't give up so easily.
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So because you are not entertained, there is no reason to keep it around for those who are entertained?
I'm thinking you don't mean that, but it looks that way in the above.
Again, thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't clear.
I meant that as far as I am personally concerned, whether DCI is here or not doesn't really affect me.
I then went on to explain that I recognize it benefits others (though I focused more on the participants than the rest of the audience), and if they want to and can keep it around, that's great for them. I don't wish for it to disappear just to spite those who don't agree with me (I'm not really that vindictive). It just doesn't affect me personally one way or the other.
Is that clearer?
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For those that think DCI should change to make things more entertaining for you, do you not think by doing so they would alienate another group of fans?
Not necessarily. Here's what I propose as a compromise:
1. Make all non-acoustic instruments illegal, but continue to allow acoustic instruments to be amplified if desired. Create a place on the sheets for each music judge to judge balance of all amplified instruments related to their area (if the amp covers up the horn line, the brass judge comments, if it covers the percussion, the percussion judge comments, etc.)
2. Make all pre-recorded music of any kind illegal (at least during the official show, preferably during the pre-show, too).
3. Involve fans in some way. Whether that is having them judge an element of the show (general effect?) as part (even a small part) of the overall score, creating a people's choice award, or creating a panel/focus group to have them give input to both DCI and the member corps along the way, give them a voice in the process.
How many fans would those three things alienate? Do you honestly think that people will leave because the corps aren't using synthesizers any more? Do people really go to shows just to hear pre-recorded music?
Maybe the most controversial proposal is to involve fans more directly in some way, but that would at least make clear who is truly in the minority. If I've expressed my voice and found that no one agrees with me, so be it. At current, there's no really good way to express any reaction to the groups aside from cheering or not, and when you don't cheer, you're accused of "hating the kids".
I don't know what all of this would look like, but those are some reforms that would definitely cause me to change my mind about leaving.
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I am sick and tired of DCP whiners. Those of you who whine and say you are leaving are the #### problem to begin with. Believe it or not, DCI is not gonna just fold because you decided to leave.
Then feel free to stop whining about the whiners. :-) And if it gets too bad for you on DCP, feel free to walk away silently. But whatever you do, don't mention your reason for leaving. Others might call you a whiner.
As I've said many times before, I hope you're right about DCI not needing those of us who leave. But if it turns out they do, I hope you'll remember this post.
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Are you saying that you do not want the best corps to score the highest? That judges should be free to evaluate the corps based on no set of standard criteria?
That is what it looks like, though I really doubt you mean that.
Thanks for giving the benefit of the doubt. Others would not have been so kind.
A lot depends on what you mean by "best". As I've said before, if a corps chooses the theme "random", writes music and drill using random number generators, and then plays and marches exactly what was written on the page, do they deserve to win? They would have done the hardest thing ever put on the field, but it would look "random" and sound "random". That would mean they had accomplished their general effect. And if any judge questioned them about it, they would be sure to explain what they were going for, and the judge would "have" to give them high marks because they executed what was on the sheet.
Replace random with any concept you want. It doesn't matter if the concept is good or bad, only that the corps marches and plays what they said they were going to. And then we call it art. But no one can say, "This isn't art. It's trash." If they do, the corps "explains" it to them, and then they suddenly change their mind. It all seems rather fake to me.
Oh, I think the freedom does exist...but the judges tend to see the corps all summer long, and speak to staffs at critique, so they do "get it".
Perhaps this is the problem, then. If you don't "get it" just by seeing what's on the field (like the fans do), then you shouldn't give them high marks for general effect. If it has to be explained to you, then I don't think it's a good design. Maybe the "critique" should be from the judges without reply from the staff. Maybe we need more judges to get more opinions involved.
Maybe we need to change the name of the "General Effect" captions. Because that implies that the judge is judging whether or not the general effect is positive or negative. In other words, does the show "work"? To me, that sounds exceptionally subjective. And if DCI is art, then it should be subjective at some level. I don't have a problem with that being reflected in the scores. Perhaps others do.
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There is a clear difference between the two.
Basically, the level of agreement with you.
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OK...lets all hope they legalize woodwinds. Will that draw you back?
You know me so well! That's the part of "brass, percussion, and drill" we've ALL been missing. 
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All of this "I'm going to leave drum corps" doesn't even sound like protesting anymore. It sounds like a fad. "This person is leaving, and I agree with the reasons of why he's leaving so I'm going to leave as well." Sounds like the easy way out.
Maybe it's a fad, or maybe it's an expression of something a lot of people have been thinking, but for whatever reason, not saying.
Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have drum corps in its current state, or no drum corps at all? And when the time comes (if the time comes), when drum corps isn't around, will you be angry at yourself for leaving/not supporting the activity early on? And if you wouldn't be angry at yourself, is drum corps really that embarrassing to you that you HAVE to leave? Like it's the only ultimatum?
"You never know what you've got until it's gone."
You ask a tough question. One I've really had to think about (both before and after you asked it). From an entertainment perspective, DCI as it is today may as well be gone, because it isn't scratching the itch that it used to scratch for me. Do I want to keep around a form of entertainment that isn't entertaining? No.
From an educational perspective, DCI still does good things for its participants, so for the kids' sake, I don't want it to disappear. But at the same time, I'm not willing to throw money after an activity that, to me, is taking an artistic turn in the wrong direction, and only seems concerned with part of the people it used to try to reach. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves, but I feel like I've been asked to cross one too many bridges, and I'm waiting on the shore to see if anyone else in the crowd might join me there.
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Julian (and your followers), why does it make sense to write this letter and walk away at the END of the season? Wouldn't it have made more sense to wait until March or April to see that nothing has been done, and THEN state your resignation from the season?
What does it cost you now to wait for the next 6 months and see what transpires?
What I don't think you realize is that the people who guide and direct this activity are well-aware of the "house of cards" you describe, and that now, finally, they have begun to act to effect a change. I don't think (although I'm not convinced) that they are acting on what's bugging you. In fact, it's likely that you won't be totally happy with the direction they take.
I tell you what. If, during the offseason, DCI announces major and revolutionary changes (as you say they will) and those changes address my concerns in a meaningful way, I'll give a tentative listen/watch at some point season. I promise to keep an eye out and see what transpires. Is that fair enough?
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You absolutely should not attend shows if this is true...and infect those who are fans or are just becoming fans with a lousy attitude. You like what you like, and it just happens you don't like DCI drum corps. So be it.
Fans are attending shows from all the reports here on DCP from around the country...and certainly from the two shows I was able to see...both packed houses.
I try not to "infect" other audience members, but I do ask questions. And the answers I get are not as rosy as the ones you seem to get. Maybe I am infecting them. I should wear a mask if I ever go to another DCI show.
That being said, I used to like DCI drum corps. A lot. And I'm really sad about not liking them as much any more. So, I decided to share my feelings with people whom I thought might care. Quite a few did. Others wanted to chop my head off for daring to disagree. And that's okay. I knew this was a hornet's nest when I posted my letter (aka nest-stirrer). But as I've said before, I had to say it. I couldn't just silently walk away when I thought there was something I could do to raise awareness and perhaps make the situation better--even incrementally.
Do I think any of this will matter? No. Unfortunately, not. But in desperation, one tends to grasp at straws.
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The audition pool skill levels would have to be equal for each corps for anything like that to have a remote chance of working.
Not necessarily. If judges were truly diverse and free to express some subjectivity (especially on the general effect), I think that would create a similar result.
And by diverse, I don't mean diverse in their qualification levels. I do want people who know about drum corps. But if a judge is judging general effect and "doesn't get it", he or she should feel no pressure to give the group a high score just because that's what is expected and/or that's what other judges have given them. At current, I don't think that freedom exists.
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I hope they pay no attention to a poll like that. I believe they did do some sort of fan survey after champs last season...maybe someone else can chime in on that.
I do seem to remember hearing something about it taking place, but I'd love to hear the results of that. Can anyone point us to the press release?
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Until you come up with properly researched and verified ratios between those, like you, who will leave and those, like me, who will stay...what we have, at best, is conjecture.
If I had the resources to do it, I would in a heartbeat. In the meantime, conjecture is all we have. I feel like I've made a pretty good case that there may be an issue worth looking into. Everyone is free to have their own opinion, though. I'm not asking for lockstep uniformity (that would be DCI judging), just that someone will listen to what I'm saying (And an acknowledgement from DCI that they've heard what I've said would be a nice gesture, even if they plan to ignore it. So far, they've not replied to me in any way.)
Now...I would present you with two questions to ponder: What makes you think DCI has NOT taken the hard look you recommend? and Don't you think it's possible...if they have...that they've discounted the impact your actions will have on DCI and Drum Corps?
Maybe they have. Given the lack of even a "thanks for writing, but we're not interested", I doubt it. But if they had completed a market research analysis and found that a huge percentage of people who attended a DCI event (or bought something or subscribed to the Fan Network) were completely satisfied, why wouldn't they publicize that information? That seems like a marketing/PR goldmine.
I know it's a hard pill to swallow...that your sensibilities and the resulting actions might possibly not matter...but there it is. Deal with it, eh?
I think I've already agreed to deal with being a lone voice (if that's the case) about 20 times since this topic began. But thanks for the advice. I'll agree to do it again if it makes you happy.
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you go to one broadway show at a time not everything on Broadway..which Im sure none of us would like everthing on broadway I would think 33% would be pretty good
Except that I can pick and choose what Broadway shows to pay for and what to skip. If DCI would let me pay admission for only the corps I want to see, you might have a point.
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I also believe it takes a way way over inflated image of self to believe that my friends and I leaving an activity, any activity, would have any profound impact on said activities finances.
Because when I said, "I may be completely alone, and if so, I'll be glad to go" I was doing everything possible to inflate my self-image.
If you love DCI (and I have no reason to doubt that you do), you and other professional insulters had better be completely correct, and I had better be completely wrong. Because if not, the house of cards that is DCI will crumble. Not because I and 130 friends left, but because a certain percentage of the DCI fan base (and I don't claim to know exactly what that number is) have stopped financing the summer music games.
Stick your head in the sand if you wish. Cover your eyes, ears, and mouth. Do whatever you like to ignore those of us who have expressed our thoughts and feelings about the activity we have loved for so long. I don't expect you to agree with me, only to consider if what I'm saying might be true. Investigate the matter. Do some market research. Let's find out the truth.
But if DCI does nothing (because people like you have told them not to worry about it), and we turn out to be a larger group than anyone thinks (and for the kids' sake, I hope we're not), you won't be able to say you weren't warned in plenty of time to turn the ship around.
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I agree that innovation for the sake of innovation is a can of worms. It can fail. I have stated this before on other threads years ago. It seems you just don't like the winning show this year, so you'll just hang it up. There were some really fine programs out there. I personally enjoyed 11 of the 12 finalists very much. My guess is that's about the same percentage that you have. It's just the one I detested is different from your thoghts on the matter.
And I profile as some old legacy dino stubborn old coot and they had a 92 percent batting average. I'd call that pretty good.
I agree that there were some really fine programs out there, but my ratio is far lower than 11:1. And many of them got beaten by programs that weren't nearly as fine.
Am I bitter? Not really. But I am disappointed for the kids who marched their hearts out only to be beaten because there show wasn't "innovative" enough.
For the record, there were 4 of the top 12 that I really liked, 3 on which I was fairly indifferent and 5 that I really didn't care for. Of those, 2 were in the top 5, and two were #11 and #12. That's probably a big part of why I left the season disheartened. Should I pay lots of money to see a show that I like 33% of the time? I can tell you that if it were a Broadway musical (another passion of mine), I wouldn't be going back if I only like 33% of it.
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ramble about the good ole days and aww of the new shows. That luster is gone.
I used to love to do that, too. Now, I find myself rambling a lot more about "the good ole days" and raising eyebrows at the new stuff. That's not nearly as much fun.
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See, this is where the logic breaks down. You love it, but only if it looks like you want it to look.
How does taking your support and dollars help assure that it doesn't disappear?
Really, I'd like to know how complete inaction is productive.
If this is complete inaction, then I'd hate to see what passionate participation is. I'm not sure that I'm leaving forever. Perhaps I just need a break. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, right?
All I know is that right now, I'm fed up with DCI. I don't love it. I'm not enjoying it. Why should I force myself to give time and money to an activity that doesn't excite me? If you say it's because I need to "support the kids", I'll be glad to take my support to kids who are starving in foreign countries and help them out instead.
Honestly, if you want audiences in the seats, you need to give audiences a reason to sit there. If they can keep building an audience while losing a certain number of audience members, then more power to them. I think there's a better way, and by writing as much as possible (and encouraging others to do the same), I'm hoping to help DCI find that better way. -
Julian, you shouldn't make the results of your poll out to be more than what they truly are. 16% is not a large percentage, and I'm confident in saying that DCP is not a good reflection of the overall fan base. In fact, I'd venture that the vast majority of fans have no idea that Cesario even has a title in DCI.
I'm sure DCI knows the "problem" of which you speak; I think it's the reason Cesario was hired in the first place.
By the very nature of the activity I think you could always find 36% of respondents who say they don't like the direction the activity is taking. I think that began to be true around the 1930's or '40's.
1. Do we have to assume that throwing the dinos a bone will necessarily alienate any new fans? On the contrary, I don't think most newbies would miss the synths (except for the synth players, many of whom can also play percussion instruments), and I think a lot of them would enjoy seeing more shifts in scores and placement from night to night--imagine if there were true parity in Drum Corps and anyone could move five places in a night (as there is in highly subjective sports like gymnastics and diving).
2. In tight financial times, 16% attrition is a pretty big number. As I described elsewhere, even 5% would be difficult to replace. Especially when it's hard for DCI to add fans (see discussion of the Colts halftime show), and many of the new fans don't have enough money at their disposal to support the activity. (And by the time they're wealthy enough to do so, they may be as disheartened as many of the current "dinos").
3. If I'm running a business where 36% are unhappy, I'm going to do whatever I can to find a solution that can satisfy the widest variety of people. If 64% is the best I can do after trying my best, then so be it. But I think DCI can get a lot closer to 90% by making a few small changes (as described above). They would keep dinos around without alienating the youth.
4. Before you say that satisfying young and old simultaneously is impossible, I point you to Broadway (tons of shows draw wide ranging audiences) and Percussive Artistry--a community percussion ensemble that I was a part of in Huntsville, AL. Our audiences were regularly filled with people from ages 3 to 83 with strong representations of all the demographics in between. We combined skill, theatrics, humor, and good musical selections. There was something for everybody. But it took a lot of time and planning to design those shows. Just as it does in DCI (though it takes much longer for corps to do it, I know). I'm just saying that it can be done if DCI will make it a priority. And if they don't, the bucket of fans will have a perpetual leak of varying sizes.
It's a lot easier to keep people who already love the activity than it is to find new people who don't know anything about it and want to learn. I think DCI can get a lot more bang for their buck if they look for solutions that make everyone happy rather than sacrificing 5-16% (or as much as 35%) in a grasping attempt to appeal to "the youth".
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Cadets 2008 might fit into that category.
I'm having a hard time remembering that show (I didn't do the FanNetwork that year, so I only saw the shows once). I'm not sure why it was so innovative.
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Of course the young lady and I won't compensate for the 40...or 130...or whatever other number you care to conjure up. On the other hand, while I have no other numbers to cite than the two I did, I suspect the number of new fans this year is quite a bit more.
While I encourage DCI...and especially their member Corps...to carefully consider the direction they are taking, I don't really consider the departure of you and the 130 like-minded people you cite to be significant enough to cater to YOUR wishes over their own.
But you assume that we're the only 130, and that it's not a matter of proportion. Expand that 130/250 to a similar number of DCI fans as a whole, and I hope you'll see the potential problem. As I shared in another thread, even if that 15% of DCP participants who are leaving only translates to 5% of the DCI whole, that's a HUGE number of people. Way more than the number of age-outs and family members exposed to DCI this year.
As I've said many times, the poll is hardly scientific. But I would hope it at least raises some eyebrows and encourages (in it's own tiny way) DCI to take a hard look at doing some real media research to discover what their fans really think.
"Pushing the Boundaries of Innovation" vs "Tradition"
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
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This assumes that DCI judges would actually fail anyone for any reason. When's the last time any judge failed (less than 60%) a G8 corps?
Then again, if anything goes, why not also get rid of judging?