JulesBry
-
Posts
399 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
2
Posts posted by JulesBry
-
-
I have taught those ages as well, and I picked shows that are not 'dumbed down', just the shows from this year I'd show to a new group of 11-year-olds. They are both fun, exciting and designed to create a visceral reaction. That in NO way implies 'dumbed down'.
My apologies. I thought you meant any Surf show or any Cadets show. Of this year's corps, I'd agree that those would be good choices, but I think they could also enjoy sections of Crown, Spirit, Phantom, and even SCV if presented well (especially if they've been studying Van Gogh in visual art). Maybe they would even like Dada. It looks like a child designed it. (Sorry to be over the top, but I just couldn't resist).
-
Who tells you that? DCI itself? The Blue Devils post that on their website? Or is it just DCP posters?
I'll take A and C. C by being pretty blunt about it (who knew that I would be a dinosaur at the ripe, old age of 32!). A by passing new rules and by rewarding exactly the things I think are wrong with drum corps.
As for B, I haven't visited their website, so I can't say for sure. Maybe I should check. :-)
-
In 1950 contras were not drum corps. In 1960 spinning flags was not drum corps. In 1970...mallet instruments were not drum corps...etc...electronics are just the latest "new" legal elements.
I stand corrected. Electronics are a part of DCI, therefore they are "Drum Corps International". However, they are neither percussion, nor brass, nor drill. Contras, flags, and mallets have always fit into the category of brass, percussion, and drill.
I know you want to make me out to be the latest in a long line of complainers with the exact same lack of forward thought, and maybe I am. Maybe in twenty years, you will all have another good laugh at my expense when DCI has two brass instruments and four drummers amidst a field of strings, woodwinds, catapults, kazoos, flaming cauldrons, trapezes, helicopters, and 37 speakers hovering on anti-grav units. But all I'm saying is I want brass, percussion, and drill. Use any variation of that you want, but I can find everything on the dark-timeline-future that I just described in rock concerts, YouTube, TV, Cirque-du-Sole and a hundred other venues. And if I can find it, young people can too. If you expect that DCI can out-do all of those other outlets by assimilating their best aspects (things that they already do far better than DCI will ever be able to do), I think you're going to be sorely disappointed.
-
1
-
-
it could have been cadets crown, pr, surf, pio..im sure the reaction would be the same , some band and thats it,,,im sure nit many cared who was on the field
Maybe, but the Cadets had a strong response at the '96 Olympics, and the UT Pride of the Southland Marching Band is most watched when they do their Pre-Game and Circle Drill (two of the hardest things they do drill-wise every year). Even football fans may not sit down and watch drum corps regularly, but they can respect marching music when they recognize it as challenging and interesting.
I'd LOVE to know what the football crowd reaction was to BD 2012, though. I wish I could have been there to witness it, as I'm sure the stands were far more entertaining than the field.
-
Why?
I'd pick a show an 11-year-old could appreciate. Doesn't matter what place the corps came in. I'd go with either Surf or the Cadets to a group of 6th graders.
I taught 4-12 grades for 7 years, and I showed Drum Corps Videos at least one day every year. Favorite moments among my 5th graders? Beginning and ending of Spin Cycle, the solo section of Cadets '00, the ending of Moto Perpetuo (especially when I explained the concept of the show), and Bluecoats Imagine (especially the costume change). They especially loved the kaleidoscope drill moments from the Cavies.
Kids are smart. They don't need things to be dumbed down. They inherently know what's hard and what isn't. Don't sell them short by thinking they're only going to like drum corps if there are fifteen synths and twelve amps. All humans love to see amazing human achievements, and pushing one key to cover up a bad note from the tuba section will never beat out a truly great tuba section--even among 5th graders.
-
whatever way it went . do you really thik this pole represents anything? just askin
It doesn't mean much. The sample size is too small, and the general population too homogeneous. And beyond that, the most important thing I learned from taking Statistics 101 is "never trust statistics".
That being said, it does show that among a small group of the most passionate of DCI fans, there is a big problem. In the world of media, this might be called a "focus group". When you assemble a focus group and find out that in that group there's a pretty big problem with your product, that usually means that you need to follow up with more in-depth research to see if the focus group was an anomaly or a sign of a bigger problem.
So, at best, it's a focus group that suggests further research is necessary. At worst, it's an anomaly. But when combined with anecdotal evidence, I would strongly encourage DCI to dig a little deeper. If they find it's an anomaly, then the 40 or so of us who are leaving probably won't be back, and no one will notice. But if it's a bigger problem that they continue to ignore, DCI won't be around for long either.
-
How could they be? Not only were they not perfectly scored last night, they've never gotten the activity's record score and this year, they didn't even sweep GE, which is where it seems we can measure the judges'"visions of the activity." In light of this, I'm wondering, whose standard is it that you're citing?
Well, they did get 20s in GE Visual at finals (apparently scatter drills and blobs are perfect choices). They didn't fare as well in GE Music (falling behind Crown by .3 total in that category). But they still ended up in 1st place overall--the same place they've been for most (all?) of the summer (I didn't have time to go back through every competition, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).
You've mentioned multiple times that you wouldn't leave the activity if you felt the judges agreed with you, but in your post, this has only been framed in terms of giving BD lower scores. Worth mentioning? The judges do agree with you! Of the shows you claimed to like this year, 2 were in the top five and 5 were in the top 12 (almost half), and none of them was given a score that wasn't respectable.
First, I want a few judges to agree with me. In other words, I want to see some variety in the standings that shows each judge is actually grading the artwork according to their opinion. If we're going to include artistic categories to be judged (and perhaps we shouldn't), then it is ridiculous to think that every judge will have the same subjective opinion of any given piece of art.
You commented on BD (ignoring my Cadets bashing in the original letter), so here goes. I went back through the last five recaps and discovered that only twice did a corps move more than 2 spots in any GE caption between competitions. And in almost every "change", it was a matter of the slimmest of margins, usually a couple of corps going up .1, and another corps going down .1 or .2. All of these changes are well within the standard deviation. In other words, everyone pretty much agrees on the order and the spread. Furthermore, not one judge had the guts to say, "that looks like chaos on the field--the general effect of the visual components is awful, and I'm not buying the 'it's supposed to look like chaos' line." It's as simple as that. And the same is true for several other corps. I have the same problem with some other shows, but since you're a BD fan, and you're picking on my use of BD as the epitome of what so many corps are doing wrong, I figured I would give some solid data to back up what I've said.
But the more important point is something I can't get over because it's not an intellectual argument. I simply found myself not caring. I've never had that problem with drum corps in the 15+ years I've been watching it. I've looked forward to the new season with eager anticipation and followed closely the whole summer. But not this one. About halfway through, I just found myself not caring. I tried to put a label on it--the judges? the electronics? the rankings and scores? the voice-overs? I don't know what it is, but it's like a weight of inevitability. I had seen the shows several times, picked my favorites, and realized that nothing would change between then and the end of the season. I already knew the outcome. It was something I wouldn't like. So I quit caring.
My friends who know me thought I was sick--I ALWAYS love drum corps.
And the truth is, I think I am sick. I'm sick of DCI. Maybe I'll feel better after some time off. I sure hope so. I want to love DCI again. Really--I do!
-
2
-
-
Have a great time at Home Jules... I bet if we met in person we would get along quite well... But your online persona seems a bit of a stretch...
I doubt it. My online persona is my home persona. If you don't like people telling you what they honestly think online, you won't want people telling you what they honestly think at home, either. :-)
-
Was anyone at the Indianapolis Colts football game today? The Blue Devils performed at halftime. I am just curious as to the reaction the show got. Because this was many people's first introduction to Drum Corps.
Hopefully the stands were all drunk (and perhaps stoned). I'm not sure I can see any other way for typical football fans to see Dada from a "marching band bugle corps thingy" and be glad about it.
-
You know, its not the electronics that are the problem, its the context in which they are used. Like look at Bluecoats 2010, that show really knew how to utilize electronic sounds and it came off as really cool and interesting.
Fastforward to this year, I clearly remember audible groans when the word "afraid" was blasted into our ears.
And yet, do the judges reward the truly great uses of electronics and punish the many awful uses? If they do, it isn't registering on the sheets from what I can see. Please feel free (anyone) to prove me wrong.
If good and bad uses are rewarded equally, we're not going to see any real improvement. That's a MAJOR problem.
-
Pop a 70's video in for today's members and you'll see so much laughter you'd think it was a Python sketch.
Do you really think we all want DCI to revert to the 70s? Maybe some do, but all I'm asking is that we make drum corps what it has always been: brass, percussion, and drill. It's that simple.
For the record, every time I pop in Spin Cycle or Frameworks or Drum Corps Fan's Dream (Part Dos) or Phenomenon of Cool or Moto Perpetuo, I get oohs and ahs. When I pop in a few minutes of Caberet Voltaire or Constantly Risking Absurdity or Cadets 05-07, the best I get are groans. I've tried this with 5th and 6th grade general music students (who especially love kaleidoscope drills), high school band and choir students, college students, and older adults. It has been consistent among those who marched and those who didn't. It has been consistent among those with musical experience and those without. Maybe my friends are just too homogeneous, but I've yet to be surprised by the results.
There is no need to go back to the 70s. Just go back to the roots. That's all I'm asking for.
-
But What they are designing doesn't appeal to the younger audiences.
At the movie theater there were three rows of hs band kids in front of me. Not a single one clapped for BD. It was actually me and probably about 2 or 3 other people who clapped. And really only 4 out of 15 corps got any kind of reaction in the theater. Crossmen, Madison, Cadets, Crown. Oh and SCV When they showed it afterwards.
Ill show friends shows from the early 90s and they ask why drum corps ever got away from that.
I have the same experience. I hosted two DCI-watching parties this year, including a few people who had never seen or heard of drum corps before and several who are young (age 18-21) marching band lovers and corps fans. Only one had anything remotely positive to say about BD 2012 (as I noted in my opening letter), and most thought it was absolutely horrible. When I asked them what their favorite moments were--the huge brass hits.
Remarkably, NO ONE said, "that synth lick was awesome". There were multiple moments where they responded negatively to weird synth sounds, though.
So if synths are supposed to capture the hearts of young uns, they aren't working as far as I can tell.
-
Seems you have a bit of selective memory on this one... When a Man Loves a Woman was initially not all that well received. There was more than a bit of controversy about it... BD doing a super easy Michael Bolton tune... parking... getting down on their knees... sitting on dice... taking the jackets off... taking the shako's off... ripping open the shirts... having guys in the guard.
Old school fans lost it, talked about how BD lost their support because of it, how BD was a disgrace to drum corps (older, drunker east coast fans seemed to be especially vocal about this)... and so on... sounding surprisingly similar to the way some do now about the current BD.
It's this perspective that suggests to me that it's all just cyclical, that the sky isn't falling, that everything will be just fine.... and 20 years from now dinosaurs will be rambling on about how BD doesn't do more accessible shows like they did back in 2012.
Honestly, I wasn't a corps fan in 1992 (1996 was my first taste). However, when I look at the crowd reaction to that moment, it's nothing like the crowd reactions I've seen to their 2012 show. Fortunately, I never had to watch 2012 in person, so I can't speak from first hand experience. But what I've heard from others and read about this year's performances don't hold a candle to the stands erupting in 1992.
And don't worry about BD2012 being accessible in 20 years. If things continue that direction, I don't think anyone will remember what DCI stands for.
-
I think your analogy is off the mark. A&E added a different timbre and color to the musical compositions and added and element that some corps have used very tastefully. Minus the preshow, if you did not know Crossmen were using a synth this year, you wouldnt have noticed. This addition did not redefine the entire sport.
However I am surprised that the DCP posters that despise A&E do not go after BDs visual design with the same fervor. What BD is doing with "drill" design IS redefining the entire sport.
Then let me tweak the analogy. Rather than motorized carts, the new 100-meter dash is run with shoes that include motorized springs. So, each competitor can run the race with fewer strides, each one propelling them farther and faster than an unaided step. They're still running, but they're doing it with help. Does that make it better? I think it's still just as fake.
New timbres and colors have been added many times, and without the addition of pre-recorded samples. That's part of what made Drum Corps creative--arrangers had to find creative ways to get around the limitations they had. Now, they just have to be creative in how they budget for all the new, delicate equipment they need to buy.
And for what it's worth, I have just as much of a problem with BD's visual design as their use of recordings. It's all part of what makes their 2012 show the epitome (again, not the ONLY example--just for those who think I'm a BD hater, which I most definitely AM NOT) of what I see as DCI's problems.
Side note, notice that I'm a Cavies fan, and their show this year is one of my least favorites of any I've EVER seen them do. The use of synths was nothing short of embarrassing (I'll take a tuba section that can play that lick ANY day. Put it on a synth, and I'm completely bored--I could play that synth lick when I was in 5th grade--that isn't XtraordinarY in ANY way, shape or form).
-
1
-
-
So let's make a list of what drum corps is and what years we marched. Maybe that will help us realize that drum corps from 1970 is not what drum corps was in 1980 or 1990 etc.
One more time, altogether, and with conviction:
Drum corps is (and until A/E were added, always has been)
1. Brass
2. Percussion
3. Drill (including guard)
It's really that simple. Everything else is a bridge to other genres.
-
So, what we're seeing in this poll is a 50/50 split on the current artistic movement in DCI.
Keep in mind, this is a 50/50 split of the most passionate/hard core fans. These are not good numbers.
I think 50/50 is pretty generous. Breaking that down further, the fact that ONLY 16% think DCI is completely on the right track is rather striking to me. Even if you add another 10% who think it's getting better, that's approximately 25%. That's almost as low an approval rating as Congress. If that's insignificant, then I'd hate to see what kind of approval rating it will take to change something!
-
I'll believe it when I see it. And perhaps I'll see it if and when I remember to check in in a year or two. If things have changed for the better, I can always catch up on the Fan Network. If not, I'll have saved a ton of money.
I've always said that I hope things get turned around, and even if they don't that drum corps sticks around for the kids who enjoy and need it. I just don't know what else to do to make my point.
-
I think that you should point these letters to judges and show designers, not the general public. This just comes off as whining to me when we (assuming most of us are fans or alumni) can do nothing to help your cause.
But we can do something. If everyone who agrees wholeheartedly with me writes a similar letter, perhaps we will make a dent. And if those who thing we're headed in the wrong direction, but who aren't quite ready to leave does the same thing...
I don't expect DCI to agree 100% with me, but I'm not going to continue giving time and money to an organization who consistently favors and encourages products that I don't like and doesn't care if I stay or go. Why should anyone? In posting this letter both publicly and privately, I am expressing my opinion and testing the waters to see if I'm alone. If I am, I'll go quietly into that good night and never look back. But from the poll above, I'm not alone. That should matter. Hopefully someone from DCI will wake up and see that. Or perhaps they think they can replace 20-40% of their audience with new blood over the next few years. I hope that new blood is as willing to spend tons of cash like the old blood has been willing to do.
-
Bringing in amplification and electronics is like adding another tool to the tool box. Some corps have been very tasteful with the addition, while some have not. Where DCI has failed with this change is not adequately incorporating it into the judging.
Again, adding motorized vehicles to the 100-meter dash would bring a new tool to the toolbox of track and field athletes. It might even increase ratings for people to "see something new and different". But would it still be the 100-meter dash? Would it build on the traditions and records of the past? Or would it be an entirely new and different activity? Do you think Usain Bolt will recognize the person who beats his record while riding in a motorized cart across the finish line? Should we care that Bolt has a problem with that?
Electronics are not drum corps. They are something else. Everyone may be okay with something else, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it builds on tradition or simply allows corps more flexibility.
-
1
-
-
It took balls to write your letter and hang it out there for everyone to see. I agree with your assessment completely, though for me it's not about one corps, rather the activity as a whole.
Unfortunately, it's about more than one corps for me, too. BD 2012 (note that I specify a SPECIFIC year, not the corps' entire history) is the epitome of what's wrong, not the only example of what's wrong.
I want to comment to one thing and that is your describing drum and bugle corps as DCI. What you call DCI was once known simply as drum and bugle corps. DCI has blurred that line ever since Don Pesceone retired and it ruined drum and bugle corps.
Which is exactly why I write several times that I have a problem with DCI. I love drum corps and want to keep DCI from destroying it. We completely agree here.
-
The corps that are having more success of late, take note- have generally stayed within their established brands and stayed within what their identity is.
Have you seen BD pre-2005? Back when I still enjoyed their shows and recognized their brand? Dadaism could not be further removed from "When a Man Loves a Woman", "Gangster Chronicle", "Rhythms at the Edge of Time", and "The Phenomenon of Cool".
-
BUT-- the show is NOT disjointed, etc. etc. Within the text of Dadaism- which of all things I'm a HUGE fan of to begin with, that show makes absolutely perfect sense within itself. Yes, perfect sense.
For those of you who hated it- it was part of the goal. You were sucked in totally in the way you were supposed to be. For those of us on the lunatic fringe and open to some wild and out of control possibilities, it was brilliance, sheer brilliance. Relax, It only came this way once. If you didn't enjoy it for what it was, I'm cool with that. So are BD. But I figured they needed to know at least one old veteran guy out there that wasn't a DCI judge got it, and loved it for what it was meant to be.
Next year, I want a corps to field a show called chaos. And when anyone complains about how it looks or sounds, the corps should simply point them to the title and insult them for being too simple and stupid to see the Emperor's New Clothes. If that doesn't work, maybe they can also throw in a reference to Nazis.
-
This is the exact reason why this letter is no more than a BD rant, trying to be clouded up with the usual complaint of electronics and the good ol' days.
Think what you want (I know you won't let my stated opinions get in your way because you know what I'm thinking more than I do), but I sincerely want to love DCI. Ending electronics would help. But if BD stages a show whenever I next watch that force pulls entire audiences out of their seats well before the final note, I'll give then their props and be glad I was there to see it. I want to love every corps.
I also enjoy diversity. But DCI judges are not diverse, because they rarely disagree in any meaningful way on things that other informed people regularly disagree about. That's a problem, and it's clearly represented in the poll above.
-
Overall, I think the changes are for the good and contrary to the poster I actually think that what BD is doing is the way many, many corps will move forward. I think once more corps throw out the traditional rule book so to speak the way BD did this year I think you'll see some absolutely incredible shows. Yeah BD's show doesn't have the kind of ending that gets people on their feet, and the first time or two I saw their show I didn't quite get it. But it has really grown on me and I see some real genius in what they've done this year. They don't look at all like a traditional drumcorps and believe it or not that's GOOD!!! It's what The Bridgemen did years back and they moved the activity forward in a big way. It's more variety, more creativity, more options for the various corps to explore. I actually think if every corps feels free to explore beyond their traditional bounds you'll have great shows, more kids participating in the activity, and more fans.
Is there room in DCI for people who disagree with you? At current, our voices are completely ignored, and we're told we're old fashioned and should just move on. What other activity treats long time die hard fans that way and sticks it out for the long haul?
I think you're correct that other corps will follow BDs lead. And if they want to win, they should. To me, that's sad. Right now, every judge in DCI agrees. To me, that's also sad.
I don't care what kinds of instruments are involved as long as they are some type of brass and percussion. If less variety allows more corps to compete using less money, then that's an additional advantage. All I know is that the current model is unsustainable.
I truly hope I'm wrong.
An Open Letter to DCI
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
True, but it was still very entertaining and created an avenue for a bunch of people who had never heard of drum corps to really enjoy it. I know it was the first time I had ever seen one (and when someone showed me the 1996 finals video later that year, I was hooked--at least until 2012).
All I know is that the stands are a LOT fuller for two University of Tennessee halftime shows than for any other (and I've been to a TON of UT games). 1. The Christmas show (which for the past several years has been a spoof on the 12 days of Christmas--nothing difficult, but highly entertaining) and 2. The Circle Drill (if you haven't seen it, search for it on YouTube--it's a trademarked drill design created by a UT engineering student a long time ago). Neither are drum corps standards, but the crowd goes crazy for them because they are 1. really funny or 2. something that looks more impressive than any other college or HS show they've seen.
DCI needs more "wow" moments and maybe not so many "I don't get it" moments. That's my prescription, at least.
As for the Indy football game, maybe they didn't notice. I still wish I could have seen their reactions, though. Just to make sure.