mgarside83
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Posts posted by mgarside83
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Yes....several.
1. I wasn't in Lawrence this year, but I did go there in '09 and '10. There were kids of all ages at those shows. True, though, that the HS demographic was not as well represented as it is at most other shows. In contrast, the Charleston, WV, show this year seemed to be half HS kids in the audience, many of whom arrived there via school buses. Perhaps the Lawrence show does not have that same kind of outreach to the local schools.
2. I think a better question would be "why is there so little competitive marching band in Massachusetts?". The state had a HUGE drum corps activity back in the day....and some of those drum corps circuits had marching bands too. Today's marching band activity in MA is way smaller than the drum corps activity was BITD. I don't think the same can be said of any other area of the country.
3. For those who scoff at marketing to the "legacy fan", it is worth noting the value of the older demographics filling seats at shows like this one.
If Drum Corps was so big in this area BITD, then why don't those alums advocate for, promote and teach competitive high school marching band, so we get more young people involved in that region? If you care about the activity and want it to thrive, wishing for a return to the day of local corps isn't very realistic at this point, but teaching the fundamentals through competitive high school bands gets more kids doing the activity and/or supporting and at least going to shows. Might not be the ideal answer for many of you, but it is an answer. Being in a region where many schools are leaving the competitive field, I feel as though it's for no other reason than band directors not wanting do it because its a lot of time. I think this is total BS. The only difference between competing bands and non-competing bands is that competing bands are accountable for the quality of what the directors do. At least in my area. The trend of bands going to non-competitive status will cut off drum corps at the heels. Imagine the uproar if all these schools were cutting football.......can't even imagine.
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At the movies, I understand as Saturday is a busy night to push your way into hundreds of theaters. But why not online?
Observing their online marketing strategy the past few years, it seems DCI takes steps wherever possible to make sure their traditional revenue streams, ticket sales and DVD sales, are unhurt. But I believe there is a broader potential in online streaming of Finals.
The diehards willing to drive 500 miles...will continue to do so .The diehards who pay $120 for high quality produced DVDs...will continue to do so. Those who do not, are left in the dark (or crashing DCP :) )
The NFL has shown us that blacking out events hurts attendance and exposure rather than help. Unlike certain professional sports, no DCI fan will argue watching on a TV is better than going live. If we could go see it live, we would.
Could you imagine the exposure as HS band seasons are starting up? And casual fans across the country if a $10-15 Finals stream was offered?
I think this is a great idea, and I also agree that DCI is missing out on a lot of money and exposure. I don't think it will keep people home, I think it will spark more interest and possibly lead more people to buy DVD's once they see how good the show is. I also think some people who have always thought about going to finals but haven't may see what its like and decide its worth it to go. I think this will happen a lot more than people not going so they can watch it at home. If there's enough interest, DCI might make money off advertising as well, and the cheaper it is to watch the show, the more people will watch it, the more you can charge for advertisers on the site. I also think about a million high school and college age kids who can't afford to go to finals will throw down $15 to watch finals online. I know about 30 or so myself.
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The only people that really even understand this distinction or even care about those more concerned with the past than the future.
There is no point to changing... as there is zero confusion on the part of the current audience, participants and potential fans/participants.
There is no 14 year old kid out there confused or turned off by the name.
Renaming the circuit to Bantastic!!! .... Bantasmagoria.... or Bando Calrissian isn't going magically get kids flocking to it.
The problem is not in the semantics... most challenges the activity currently face are all money related... as in could be quickly and easily solved with money.
Example, if participation was cheaper... loads more kids would do it.
If someone wants to do what I assume would be a rather revealing study... take the number of kids participating year on year, with the kid's out of pocket cost of participation (adjusted in current $) and I bet you'll see a correlation. Rising costs have put participation out of range of a significant number of youth.
Drum corps is an exercise in survival of the fittest... only the most fiscally fit survive in this economy. Likewise, only kids with sufficient financial means are able to participate. These two factors limit both the number of corps and the number of kids participating.
Add to this the dramatic change in communities, social structures and range of activities available to kids now compared to previous generations... and you can see that drum corps is actually doing pretty #### good in context.
Back to the money point...
Here is a challenge... if people really think they make up a significant and essential segment of the audience, why not prove it? Put their money where your mouth is, literally. Create a fund to support more kids to be able to participate.... prove it, become essential... then use that leverage to make the sort of impact you wish.
Start a movement.... a sort of grassroots effort.. raise a million bucks to do this. If an organized groups of dissenters can't raise a million, or even half a million... then they are not as significant a portion of the audience as they imagined themselves to be.
I would be really interested in starting a fund to support kids who would have trouble participating because of cost. I teach and continue to teach a lot of kids who have the talent, and love the activity, but most of whom I know will never be able to afford it. I do what I can as far as giving money to those kids who audition, but I'm limited in what I can do alone. One student I had in high school a few years back marched Glassmen last summer, and one of their staff helped him considerably in paying his dues, as he was not financially supported very much at home. I gave him $100, but there were about 10 other former students of mine marching at places and there's no way I could afford to give them all that much. I have had many students over the years who I'm sure would have marched somewhere, and had the talent and work ethic to do so, but simply could not afford it.
I don't know how much I can do, I'm a poor SOB, but if there is significant interest from others to look into and start a fund such as this, I'd be very interested in working with them. I guess the first thing I'd like to know is if there is already anything out there like this now? And secondly, if there isn't, is there significant interest from others out there to make something like this possible?
If there is, let's get it done! I'm all in!!!
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danielray, on 30 July 2011 - 03:54 AM, said:
To sum up this tread...
Old people don't like electronics.
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It's funny you say that. Because in Atlanta, I (a 31-year-old) was sitting next to three teenagers (juniors/seniors in high school) and they weren't the least bit interested in the synth sounds. The whole time, they were raving about this percussion line and that horn sound. The only thing they ever said about the synths/samples was to complain a couple of times about sounds that didn't fit the show.
Ask yourself. Has anyone walked out of a DCI competition talking about "that great synth that so-and-so used" or "the awesome pre-recorded music that opened so-and-so's show"? The only exception to this rule that I've heard to date is people liking the "chant" that starts and ends the Cadets show this year. Otherwise, the best people can do is to ignore those sounds and try to enjoy the brass and percussion (imagine that--at a Drum and Bugle show?). Just about everyone around me was complaining about synthetic sounds from the field.
I know it's anecdotal, but is anyone REALLY getting excited about synth sounds?
I've had many many many very similar experiences. I haven't encountered anyone yet who loved the synth or sound samples that corps were doing. I've only encountered varying levels of tolerance for them.
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Yeah, lots of ignorant people out there but it's out job to be informative to them. I've been one to insult other bands using the term bando. I've done both activities, and love both. But they are 2 distinct activities. Again, to just "roll over" and say "oh yeah it's just like marching band" is not good for the drum corps.
If we as fans don't care about the name then we might as well change the name to MBI. Then we'll see who comes unglued.
Careful, I think you just insulted Minnesota Brass Inc. with the MBI idea.
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I saw Reading, MBI and Hurcs last night, and I was convinced even more so that Drum Corps doesn't need electronics. Reading didn't have any trouble filling the stadium with sound at Lewisburg, and I could hear their pit just fine(which played with good technique and no rock hard mallets seemed to be used that I could tell, it all sounded very nice and warm).
I think the argument over keyboard projection isn't even relevent anymore because in newer model outdoor boards, the resonators and projectors have evolved and are far superior to instruments of the mid 90's. Even 10 years ago, listen to Cavies pit in their Niagara Falls show......tell me that doesn't sound great. But hey, I can live with amping the pit anyway.
Sythn and electonic sound bites and recordings I can't see myself ever enjoying. I continue to support the activity, I love the competitive marching activity as a whole, high school band (only the competitive variety), DCI and DCA. But i don't enjoy, see the value in, or understand the reasoning behind electronics in any of these. If additions like this keep happening, I don't know where I will draw the line, but this is the 1st major change I've lived through that really bothered me like this. The only value I see in electronics is as a crutch for designers who aren't creative enough to be designing. Maybe instead of changing the rules, corps should change some designers, get some new creative blood in there. I think the "good ol boys club" of staff trading and the lack of a professional hiring process in DCI and DCA hurts the creativity more than anything. But that's just my 2 cents.
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To sum up this tread...
Old people don't like electronics.
Is 27 old? I hate electronics. Maybe I'm just mature for my age!
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Actually, I HATED the singing in that show, but still thought the rest of it was pretty great. Just my opinion of course, but I enjoyed it. But as referenced earlier, I didn't get into DCI until electronics were legal, so read into it however you feel like
I'm so sorry about that. I wish you could have experienced some of the shows I have, and I wasn't introduced to DCI until DCI East in 2000.
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This hasn't changed at all despite electronics. The results before and since 2004 are more or less consistent. Of course, the rise of Crown and Bluecoats is mildly interest if only for the fact that these two corps are among the few most linked to amped voice. All that bile apparently hasn't scared away their talent.
HH
So......how has electronics made DCI better? The same groups are winning all the time? That's your argument?
I have an idea. Put a salary cap on how much corps are allowed to spend on their entire production, staff salaries, all of it. Create an equal playing field, then the only variable is design and technical instruction. I think then it may become more diverse at the top.
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Not what I said. I said the voters have been opting for programs using amped voice disproportionately. Although I suppose the 2006 Countdown still is impossible for the anti-electronics crowd to explain in as much as two amped-voice corps make it when a universed of accoustic options were available.
HH
If people prefer amped voice in shows as you suggest, then why have almost, if not all groups, moved away from utilizing amped voices, esp. narration? I also notice you suggested earlier narration sepcifically but now have adopted "amped voices" as your language. Just an observation.
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Speaking of self-serving......
WOOHOO, could you please define what your vision of what you'd like to see DCI become. It seems all you do is argue for the sake of arguing anyone who doesn't like changes to the activity and you seem to blindly support whatever DCI does and any direction they take. Then you criticize people who care enough about the activity to try to voice their concerns over things that may ruin it. It just seems to me that you're a blind follower and will go in just about any direction DCI takes and support it. I care enough about the activity to speak about things I believe are bad for the activity, and I equally speak up about things I think are great that the activity is doing. I don't have any proof that you would accept (I don't think there is such a thing) that the electro movement in DCI is a step in a very wrong direction, but to me it just seems like common sense. Likewise, you can't prove it has had any positive effect. If nothing else, I have a very strong feeling against it. It appears many others do as well. If I didn't care very deeply about DCI, I wouldn't voice my concerns. But all your "you have no proof" arguments are getting old. I challenge you to prove to us that sythns and electronic sound bites have had any positive impact on DCI.
Are there more fans now?
Is DCI bringing in more money now?
Are there more corps now?
What did they "fix" that was broken?
Is the activity cheaper or more expensive now?
What is better about DCI now that we have electronics?
I can't see any positive impact electronics have had on DCI.
On top of this, all this talk of making DCI more accessible and "like" high school competitive marching bands, is ridiculous. I can say from experience, there are very few groups in the high school realm who can actually afford to mimmick what DCI groups are doing with the electronics, and even fewer who have the expertise to mimmick what DCI is doing. So to me, it seems all electronics have done is open the void between the 2 activities even further, which isn't something I would think you would support. Now it isn't just different instrumentation, bands can't afford to do what corps are doing. For that matter, many corps can't afford to do what corps are doing. Is that a good thing for the activity as a whole? Seperating the elite even further and making it even more inaccessible?
I think the elite should earn thier status by being better than everyone else, not by being richer and having more toys. If they are the best, then be the best by executing and designing the best shows, within the same limitations that every other group has, or should have. Forcing everyone to buy expensive sound systems and hiring experts to run them and set them up is just a way for the wealthier groups to buffer themselves from competition. At least this is what it seems like to me.
I used to admire DCI groups when I marched in my high school band because (other than us having woodwinds) they were the same as us, but they were so much better and more intense. They were inspiring, and gave me an image to mold myself into. Now, they are almost a different activity entirely, with the exception of rich BOA schools who are staffed by the same people designing and making decisions in DCI.
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I don't think anyone is using narration anymore. Maybe people in the stands openly booing the Cadets at East in 2006 had something to do with it. It's a shame that it came to that for the performers in that corps. On the other hand, it seems the tactic got results.
Perhaps if corps directors made more of an effort to get in touch with and open communication about what fans want to see, unfortunate events like that wouldn't happen. Why should fans let them tell us what we should like? It's their responsibility to create a product for the fans, not the fans responsibility to like what they do no matter what. That's def. the mentality of some people on this discussion, and I'm afraid it's the mentality of many of the show designers. They hide it behind, we're doing what the kids want us to, but that's a load of BS. A good ploy to shield themselves from any accountability for designing bad shows and bringing things like sythns into drum corps. If 1,000's of fans are getting on their feet throwing babies at the performers at the end of their show, they will most likely be getting a good experience. Seems to me, the key is the fans. Duh???
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So what? What does that say about all the shows without mic'ed voice that didn't win enough votes, keeping in mind that many were higher placing than those with voice. The amped voice beat them (many of them top five finishers), indicicating that for some significant segment of the fan base, the amped voice is fine.
Also, let's go back to the 2006 Countdown when corps from all years were eligible. Bluecoats 05 and Crown 04 made the list of 12. Two more amped voice shows this time alongside favorites such as 1980 Bridgemen and 1989 Phantom.
You can't in all honesty dismiss the significance of these results. Rather than showing disgust with amped voices, they demonstrate support. Think of it this way, of all the amped voice shows to finish in the top 12, a very high percentage has been voted into the various Countdowns. In fact, correct me if I'm missing one, the only amped voice top 12 shows not to make a Countdown are Crusaders 04 and Cadets 06-07-08. This means something.
HH
This argument is completely ridiculous. The voting had nothing to do with electronics vs. non-electronics. Fans voted for the shows they liked. I like many shows that have electronics. I hate electronics in the shows, but it doesn't mean the show isn't likeable.
I don't think fans were thinking so politically when they voted, rather, just picking shows they liked. When all the top quality shows from 2005 through 2007 are using A&E, I think no matter what, a few that use a lot of it are going to get in. In regards to your comment on narration.....if so many people like it, how many corps are using narration in their shows now?
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Yeah, acting like a 4 year old will REALLY speak to the staffs.
Using that logic, I guess most of our equal rights laws came into being by acting like 4 year olds........
I mean, you're the one telling people if they don't come to shows then they shouldn't voice their opinion. Well, if they come to shows, I think they have a right to voice their opinion. I think it should be done in good taste and gestures toward the kids are uncalled for. However, I think it's totally acceptable to hold directors and staffs accountable for their actions. They are paid primadonnas, and it's not like there's many other ways they are reachable or open to hearing feedback from fans. If anything, they go to great lengths to avoid any fan feedback or accountability. So bring it to them! I think I might bring a sign to East the reads "No Electronics in DCI!"
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That's not what I said. The vote was open to any drum corps fan. Indeed, if you think about it, the great legacy tail of drum corps might well have swamped the poll with their accoustic preference. And yet, what happened? Crown 07, Bluecoats 07 and Cadets 05. All featured the amplified human voice prominently. That all three earned enough votes against all other corps is significant to this discussion (if disappointing to those who'd rather believe no one can tolerate a&e).
Yes, in summarizing, I mischaracterized Cadets 05 as narrated. That said that show had three instances of amplified voice, including an extended - and wonderful - drumspeak feature that we would never had enjoyed without mics. Doesn't diminish the strength of my argument at all.
HH
Wonderful drumspeak!? Being a percussionist, 05 Cadets was the 1st show i had ever seen where I loved everything except the drum solo. A 3 year old can sing hertas. I'd like to see a good drum line play them. Take the drum speak to America's Got Talent.
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Seems to be growing? No basis in fact. No emperical evidence to support this assertion.
On the other hand, fans consistently vote for electronic shows among their favorites, for instance, in the Countdown series. Narrated shows comprised three of the eight selections in the 2008 Countdown (2005 Cadets, 2007 Crown and 2007 Bluecoats). Cadets make extensive use of synths and electronics this year and are consistently among the crowd favorites. Corps in general each year are finding new and interesting uses for electronics each year. I don't see where you can claim that objections are growing.
HH
Which of the top 8, or 12, or 30 shows can I pick from to like the best that doesn't have electronics??? I hate electronics. Doesn't mean I hate the shows. I just hate that part of it.
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The Jif commercial was more scientific.
It's realistic to believe that a majority of older audience members who have an opinion on the topic don't care for electronics. A lot of them were also unhappy about the change to multi-key horns a decade ago, and even though the net wasn't really around as part of daily life in 1990, I'm sure if it was, there'd have been a lot of #####ing about three-valve horns.
The change has been made, and as has been historically true of changes in the rules, the idea was passed by the people who are actually out there doing it every day. Some fans no doubt saw that as the last straw, and are only hanging around places like this to complain about it rather than going to shows (personally, not being interested at all anymore because of one rule change strikes me as a little overly dramatic, but whatever...). But for those under the age of 35 or so, my guess is that the change wasn't nearly as dramatic, and won't have affected them one way or another.
Im 27, Marched in DCI and DCA, and I hate electronics in DCI. I am perfectly fine with amplifying perc. in the pit, but electronic sounds bites and synths to me and many others my age are completely stupid. It's not us young uns pushing this crap through, it's corps directors. When was there ever a poll of young fans or marching members about their feelings on the topic? I teach high school lines, have been for 10 years. Most of the kids I teach hate it, all of them with a clue about the activity do anyway. The only thing I love about having a synth in my pit is now I have an instrument for my more frustrating players with a voolume dial on it. I think its completely ridiculous to have electonic instruments in outdoor. Make some sense in indoor, as we don't have instruments that sustain pitch very well, so it allows perc groups to play more things, but isn't that what horns are for in outdoor? What do we need this stuff in outdoor for? If I'm going to see a drum corps show, I wanna see a Drum Corps. Brass tearing my face off, Perc, throwing down, and even guard doing whatever it is they do....hahahaha. All this electro crap just gets in the way of that. Electronics have their place in popular music, but they don't belong in drum corps any more than they belong in classical symphonies. It makes no sense to me at all. There is no achievement to it, and what I'm seeing doesn't match what I'm hearing anymore. I don't want to hear sounds that aren't being generated by people in the performance by exerting amazing physical and mental effort.
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There was some absolutely brilliant stuff in the 80's.
How did you get a clip of DCI 2020 already!?!?
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IMO I don't think the design of SCV's show regarding percussion is hurting htme at all. Anyone saying they don't have a demanding book, IMHO, is completely off base. However, I do think that in designing the show, there are moments that were intended to be very intense. The percussion is maxing those moments out. However, the horns are not performing them at the same level, and when the perc. is really going for it and achieving a ff moment, the horns are only achieving a mf, thus perhaps to the perc judge, the perc is overbalancing a lot of the time. Maybe this is hurting the musicality score? They have been very dominant in execution. Maybe the weaker brass line is hurting them in that regard. Just some thoughts.
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Did you see Cavies 2003 guard unis? Much more silly than this.
I don't know about more silly, but equally silly, I'll give you that. I guess that's artistic.......
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Man, you and Jeff Ream with the melodrama. How do you jump from electronics to Lady Gaga? Nothing in DCI is even close to that.
Thank you for complimenting my vocabulary. How about "animal-like obedience "? I don't really know why drum corps NEEDS to be unique, as long as it has the highest performance level, which it does.
I dunno, some of the shows I'm starting to see aren't very far from a Lady Gaga concert already. Have you seen Cavies guard unis?
Not to mention all the "goo" coming out of Techno, I mean, Teal Sound. 
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book is a bit light, safe for his first year there, started off winning because it was clean, others caugth up needs to add some meat maybe vary the tempos
Light!? How in the world is this book light compared to Cavies or BD!?!?
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"An electronics explanation for all the haters". Thanks so much for educating all of us who question the increased use of electronics in DRUM AND BUGLE CORPS. Your use of the word "haters' in the topic says a more about you than about those you think you are educating. Press a button music starts... press it again music stops. This is still a judged activity and how exactly does one go about judging the button pusher. You say that it is producing a stronger beast... nothing could be further from the truth. This is an expensive activity and the last time I looked is still a youth based non-profit activity geared toward education and musicianship. So may I suggest that if what you want is more synthesizers and more sampled music you listen to top forty radio.... there are plenty of talent-less button pushers there for you to enjoy.
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Why is that a problem? I don't see it. I see no tangible reason why it should be confined to this outside a dogmatic obedience to tradition.
Your logic makes no sense to me at all. No problem with it? So when DCI no longer exists because it's been replaced with an anything goes Lady Gaga concert approach, then what is it? It's completely lost it's identity and it has no meaning anymore, it's just like all the other crap in our American Idol world now.
Dogmatic Obedience to Tradition? You're good with words, but what you're talking about isn't obedience to tradition, it's the elimination of the uniqueness of an activity. If you want to see an anything goes musical visual performance, seriously, go see a Lady Gaga or Brittany Spears concert (I guess they are considered concerts) and that's what you'll have. Why do you need to push the agenda of the bastardization of the art I love?
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Hawthorne Caballeros Camp Weekend: 01.28.12 & 01.29.12 - Blairstow
in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions
Posted
Agreed. Jop, get out here and join us!