drumcorpsdrummerman2012
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Posts posted by drumcorpsdrummerman2012
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There is a difference between claiming something is politically incorrect or potentially dangerous/socially irresponsible.
Yes, those pieces of wood that are shaped like a rifle are definitely potentially dangerous. Someone could drop one on their head. Beginning to wonder if this has in fact happened to you.
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Whenever I show drum corps to anyone that is completely unfamiliar with the activity, two questions seem to come up pretty much every single time:
1) Why are they wearing those funny costumes (usually from non-Americans)?
2) Why are they throwing guns?
Given the fact that:
A ) Rifles make absolutely zero sense programmatically anymore
B ) Gun deaths among youth, particularly accidental, are the highest they have ever been
Isn't it time to change?
I am not suggesting that the activity outright bans them, but I am saying it isn't such a cool thing for young kids to potentially emulate (imagine the first news story of a young kid finding a real rifle, copying what they had seen, ending in tragedy).
In addition, there are at least 3,782,469 other possible things out there to spin (how many of them haven't even been thought up?). So, why spin something that not only makes zero sense, but it modeled after something designed to kill?
The activity has moved well beyond its military roots. It is time now to retire rifles in search of alternatives that are more creative, programmatically appropriate and socially responsible.
Oh for all that is holy!!!! As if the gun control argument itself has not been worn out, now we are talking about banning a "fake rifle shaped OBJECT" that is a part of our activity's tradition and not only that, but was originally intended to pay respect to the activity's military roots because you....(no you can't be serious).....because you......(no way, you must be joking)..........because you think that spinning a rifle somehow contributes to gun violence?
Dan, get out of the sun. It's frying your brain.
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I read the entire original post then half of the first reply, yawned and then stopped reading.
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I ran accross the following youtube videos of George Hopkins being interviewed. One from 1984 and one from 1990. I was so shocked by the humble nature of these videos that it almost made me faint. All he talks about is how "winning doesn't matter" and how he would "quit on the spot" if his organization ever became about winning and eletism and how it's all about the kids and the educational value they take away from the activity. I couldn't even believe it was really him. Though, I'm encouraged to know that it really is him because it just proves that there is a good man with a good servant's heart inside that skin who really does care about the kids in this activity, despite the appearing greedy and self serving nature of some of his most recent philosophies. What I want to know is how did he lose sight of his original vision and philosophy?
I want THIS George Hopkins BACK! The things he says in both of these interviews are spot on!
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But how well would working with drum corps while having a full time job go?
Depends on several things. If you are doing 75% to a full summer's worth of touring, it depends on how patient your employer is. In most cases, if you are working in the corporate structure, you are in the real world and I'm afraid most employers won't be very patient with you being gone for three months unless you are a super employee with serious tenure. Which is why, as others have eluded to, most drum corps instructors who do full tours are either band directors or self employed high school instructors or designers who's summer schedules allow for it.
The other option is to instruct part time/consult. This actually can be done along side most types of full time jobs if scheduled strategically and if your avaliability meets the needs of the staff coordinator. This is probably the most promising option. These types of roles are becoming more and more in demand in this day of the activity. Long gone are the days where all instructors do 100% of the tour. Most of the primary staff do about 70% of the tour(ish) and that generally means that at times, they need people who can fill in for a week or two during the summer and cover some gaps. This is probably one of the more fun ways to do it because you don't have a lot of the big responsibilities that the primary staff have so you essentially get to "play with the toy" and then go back home to real life for most of the rest of your summer.
It's definitely a tough activity to juggle with real life and something that needs to be thought through before just jumping into it. As I've said before, I've seen full time jobs crumble and families fall apart because of people taking on a drum corps instructor role irresponsibly.
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What amazes me is hearing about staff relocate to work with a different drum corps. How are they able to do that without the wherewithal to support themselves (and any family they may have)? I suppose behind the scenes some are actually getting a job with a nearby school as well, to pay for the drum corps habit.
Oh, I know. It's insane. You also hear about people quitting great jobs for the sake of that "once in a lifetime offer to teach ______________ drum corps". And thus....divorce happens etc etc etc...it's crazy. BD seems to be the only exception. Go figure...
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So do instructors get paid? Or are most of them volunteers?
There are some corps who have "interns" that do volunteer but the vast majority of instructors are paid.........."SOMETHING". However, I think the majority of money is made on the design end with a little less for captions heads and considerably less for techs (unless you are on BD's staff...which is generally better than most as I understand). The reality is, the amount of money you make as an instructor for a corps is very little. As a tech, if you are lucky, your yearly "salary" might add up to about $2 an hour if you consider the amount of hours you put into the activity, not only during the summer but during the off season as well. It really doesn't amount to much. And that doesn't take into account what you might have to cover in expenses. The reality is, you will probably lose more money than you will make.
Truthfully, people make more money working with high school programs than with drum corps. A lot more, actually. I don't mean on the "director" level, either. I'm talking as a tech, caption head or designer for a top caliber high school band. The amount of money you make with a high school program makes what you make as a drum corps instructor almost an embarrassment. It's a nice hobby and a worthwhile contribution to an awesome educational activity. But drum corps is not something you should ever consider "a job" (even within the term of "part time").
In short: Don't quit your day job.
If you like to teach and want to make some money with it, either instruct a high school or two as a SIDE JOB or better yet...if you are serious about making it a full time carreer, get a teaching degree and become a band director. Otherwise, enjoy teaching drum corps as a great hobby that you will not make much money at (and maybe lose money).
I'm sorry if that was not the answer you wanted to hear.
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..... as I'm sure most of the instructors are volunteers.
Well......no. Actually, that isn't TECHNICALLY true....though.......errr......uhhhh.....let me elaborate as I respond to one of your other posts.
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If I could give 20 greenies...I'd give it to this post! In many ways, DC design teams are a marriage...a partnership. A slog through opinions and personality that survives if you give it time and acceptance that all can contribute. Talking about new staff additions is always fun to gab about here on DCP and certainly can give a corps a bounce in alumni opinion and support, but success is build on stability and how the design team works in the long haul. Every now and then one addition makes an immediate difference (Paul Rennick) but he was no stranger to the team already in place at SCV, so that almost doesn't count.
Yup! You are absolutely right.
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On the other side of that, who's had the greatest success? Corps with stable, consistent, and EFFECTIVE staffs...BD and Cadets, primarily.
When you have creative and administrative staff that's been at the corps since long before any of the current members were leacherous gleams in their daddy's eyes (Downey, Gibbs, ScoJo) and they long ago learned how to effectively work together, that says a great deal....the revolving door looking for that perfect staffer and them only giving them a year to get the job done doesn't work.
Careful, I debated that issue on the front side of this thread and nearly got burned at the stake for it. But, you could not be more correct. All this shuffling around and giving staff members and teams only 2 or so years to get things right or you are out (only to get hired somewhere else and go through that same cycle at another corps two years later) is counterproductive.
Note to all designers and instructors: Unless you work for the Blue Devils and I suppose also the Cadets, don't get too attached and sentimental about where you are. You won't stay long (and it's too bad).
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Well no not really. They don't sit back and laugh. They move on and work on the next show and see how they can top what they had just done.
I'll stand correctly on that one. You are absolutely right!
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You seem to be losing credibility with your attitude.
Yeah, you might be right. This stuff is getting me pretty wound up. I'll admit it. I'm just tired of seeing people I know get screwed.
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Furthermore, it's not so much about "less rehearsal" as it is about being smart with your time and energy. It's not like the Blue Devils don't work hard. They work extremely hard. The difference is, they also work smart. They don't generally jump off a 4 hour bus ride, give their kids two hours on the floor and then crank the lights on and rush everyone out to the field for 14 hours. It's called balance. They work hard....and they rest well. The work hard...and they eat well. They travel well....and then they rest well. They work hard some more....and then they play well (i.e., by playing I mean time off....anyone see the postings of Todd Ryan sending them to the hot tub at one point during finals week). Lets face it, it's unhealthy to approach this activity the way most people approach it. It's not normal in the real world to work 2 months straight without a day off. Granted, some people do (and unfortunately that's due to how screwed up things in this economy and society in general have gotten...but that's for another thread in another forum). Still, it's not normal and not healthy. The human body needs at least one day off per week to re-gain strength. Frankly (get ready to red minus me with this one), I think a huge number of corps in this activity (like, probably a majority) are completely stupid, insane and abusive for having ONE....maybe TWO days off (if that) per tour. It's absolutely sick and abusive. Our bodies can't handle it.
I also want to make this point a little more clear. I am in no way insinuating that The Blue Devils do not work hard. So many BD haters think this to be the case and it's completely false. The Blie Devils work their ##### off!!! No question about it, the majority of that corps time is spent on the rehearsal field getting better. The DIFFERENCE.............is that they balance their hard work with enough rest and personal time....to flippen have the ENERGY to CONTINUE working hard. I KNOW! Because I've WATCHED and talked to enough people who would know. And to the person who asked if I was a product of the Blue Devils, go back and read the post where I talked about a "light bulb" that just recently lit up in my head as a result of some things I've "recently" (key word) learned about that organization? Sound like an affiliate of the corps? I'll leave you to decide that.
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Hard to believe you were the same poster who reminded us that not all staff departures are firings. Sometimes, staff leave on their own accord. Their real jobs move them across the country. They start families, and cannot be on tour as much. They go back to school to pursue an advanced degree. Or they discover that a position with some other corps is a better opportunity than where they are currently.
My Response:
Absolutely! I still hold to that first post I made and additionally agree with everything you just said. You are absolutely right. Many staff changes are what you have just described. I'm not talking about those. Not at all. I'm talking about when "firings" really DO happen. But not just isolated terminations. Patterns of terminations every other year and sometimes the very next year where seeds have been planted and the plant us uprooted before it even has a chance to be watered. That's what I mean.You know what? I want to try and make my point a little clearer here so that you can better see how my first post actually ties hand in hand with what I've been ranting about with "staff firings".
I'm sick and tired of seeing great instructors (some of which are friends of mine) who just began to establish something great for their corps get fired....and then to ad insult to injury get their name and reputation run through the mud because a certain corps "let them go" due to stupid jealous idiots gossiping about it. Additionally, I'm also sick and tired of seeing great instructors (some of which are friends of mine) who HAVE "left a corps on their own accord" get their names and reputations run through the mud because "RUMOR HAS IT"......(MAN I hate that phrase) that they were in fact fired and didn't leave on their own accord (even if they really did). And furthermore......THIS place is often the biggest offender in the damaging gossip as such!
(and people think I am the one with the twisted perspective on this activity)
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I see. The Blue Devils are successful because they have retained their staff long term. Therefore, other corps can be just as successful if they retain the Blue Devils staff long term?
LOL! NO! Talk about misquoting me and taking me out of context. How about reataining their OWN already existing staff long term?
Clearly, it is not as simple as just staff retention. If it was, Pacific Crest and Mandarins would have been giving BD a run for their money - oops, let me rephrase - would have given BD some competition by now.That's not my point either. My point was the luncacy of certain corps (SCV for one) giving their staff no longer than 2 years to make a difference and then uprooting the entire team for a brand new one. Let's not make this something it's not.
Hard to believe you were the same poster who reminded us that not all staff departures are firings. Sometimes, staff leave on their own accord. Their real jobs move them across the country. They start families, and cannot be on tour as much. They go back to school to pursue an advanced degree. Or they discover that a position with some other corps is a better opportunity than where they are currently.Absolutely! I still hold to that first post I made and additionally agree with everything you just said. You are absolutely right. Many staff changes are what you have just described. I'm not talking about those. Not at all. I'm talking about when "firings" really DO happen. But not just isolated terminations. Patterns of terminations every other year and sometimes the very next year where seeds have been planted and the plant us uprooted before it even has a chance to be watered. That's what I mean.
[so how does a corps achieve the kind of staff retention Blue Devils have enjoyed? Pick only single people whose work will never cause them to relocate? Pay them more than they earn at their day job? Or just "treat them well", and hope for the incredible luck that they will all stay for 20 years or more? (My guess - incredible luck.)One or two of those might be on the right track. "Treating people well" is in fact a proven method within the corporate structure that has been officially documented in many cases. I don't know about having to be "single". But again, it's not really about "retaining" staff (as in making them want to return) as it is just not being so quick with the "firing trigger" as many corps are.
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I know this was a while ago, but it was a great question, so I feel I should answer it.
I knew what I needed to know. What I didn't realize was that, emotionally, I wasn't invested in what i was doing- the specific event I remembered right away was during my first year- I was really an idiot, and not just mostly one.
Simply telling me "I feel like you're not giving me your all" would have been ineffective;
That's a shame. So, what you are telling me then is that you did not trust your staff enough to believe what they say at face value? You had to have it beat into you (emotionally speaking). That's just sad.
Except you completely missed the point of my post: winning isn't everything,Once again, I never said it was.
and just because something works for one person does not mean it will work for anyone else.The Blue Devils, as an organization, function because of their circumstances; a feeder system that builds a single approach. A mindset of most of the people who march there (and yeah, I've known enough to make that statement). They have a specific style of show that they do (think broader than theme).
For most, if not all, other corps, a feeder system like they have is not an option. That rules out the 'single approach for years and years'. Blue Devils don't have to worry about teaching a technique; their people, for the most part, already know what's up. Hence, they can afford to do other things differently than other corps.
Are you suggesting that less rehearsal would help all open class corps get higher scores? Or even most of the rest of World Class? Ridiculous.
Really? How about Blue Devils B? They are part of the same organization and take the same approach. Wait, no...actually...they DO rehearse less. Less than everyone in World Class because they have a shorter summer to begin with? That's HOW "Open Class" does it. LOL! How's that for a backfire?
Furthermore, it's not so much about "less rehearsal" as it is about being smart with your time and energy. It's not like the Blue Devils don't work hard. They work extremely hard. The difference is, they also work smart. They don't generally jump off a 4 hour bus ride, give their kids two hours on the floor and then crank the lights on and rush everyone out to the field for 14 hours. It's called balance. They work hard....and they rest well. The work hard...and they eat well. They travel well....and then they rest well. They work hard some more....and then they play well (i.e., by playing I mean time off....anyone see the postings of Todd Ryan sending them to the hot tub at one point during finals week). Lets face it, it's unhealthy to approach this activity the way most people approach it. It's not normal in the real world to work 2 months straight without a day off. Granted, some people do (and unfortunately that's due to how screwed up things in this economy and society in general have gotten...but that's for another thread in another forum). Still, it's not normal and not healthy. The human body needs at least one day off per week to re-gain strength. Frankly (get ready to red minus me with this one), I think a huge number of corps in this activity (like, probably a majority) are completely stupid, insane and abusive for having ONE....maybe TWO days off (if that) per tour. It's absolutely sick and abusive. Our bodies can't handle it.
And you all thought I was talking about "winning"? No, not at all. All I was doing was pointing out the very interesting coincidence (or is it) that the corps that wins more than any other is the one corps who (and it's obviously common knowledge) has the most balanced blend of work time and down time of any other corps. If you want to make it about "winning", that is of your own accord. I'm just laying the facts out there.
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So DCI is only about winning? Got it....
Guess I wasted my time then showing up in St. Louis those years my corps didn't win, even though we were a crowd favorite. Oh, darn. Good thing I didn't waste my time this year since we didn't win.Maybe time for you to re-evaluate your priorities about drum corps and the music world, if you think it's all about just ending up on top.
I never said "drum corps is all about winning". That never came out of my mouth (or off my keypad). Not once. I was simply siting example of how the corps that has one the most world championships appears to be doing things very differently than the rest of the activity...and if in fact people want to see more corps win more often, maybe OTHER corps should try doing some things the way they do it. That's it. Nowhere have I said that this activity is only about winning. Don't make my posts into something they are not and as I said in my last post, "don't be so overly dramatic". It's just drum corps. Here, watch this video for some perspective...
Now, relax and try not to take this activity so seriously.
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You totally miss what this activity is all about. May I ask if you are a product of the Blue Devils monster organization? If so, you speak poorly for them blue glasses and all.
Oh for Pete's sake! Don't be so overly dramatic!
Nothing I said was offensive or derogatory. Just sharing opinions...that represent only my own.-
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Try and look at this situation without the benefit of blue tinted glasses. Please.
Why would I want to do that? They are the ones who win the most and have the best statistical track record. If I want directions on how to get to Chicago, I'm going to ask someone who's been there. Not someone who has tried several times and keeps ending up in St. Louis. I'll take the blue tinted glasses, please. Thank you.
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I guess I entered the Blue Devils for president site. I agree they are consistent and successful. They have the money to attract the best and the brightest and treat them well even to how they are transported. Let's be realistic with other groups.
Oh believe me. I'm being very realistic. The statistical comparisons speak for themselves.
Change is not always good but it is not always bad. Since Troopers are the 2nd biggest topic on this section, they started well and then left the path they were heading. (speaking about the last 5 or so years) I have been told some of the people responsible for the initial re-birth were forced out by some of the people that are now apparently leaving. Sometimes you need to change and keep changing until you get it right. 5 to 6 years is certainly a fair amount of times to try someone.I don't disagree with this. But I'm actually not talking about Troopers. I agree, 5 years is enough to make a noticable difference. I'm not talking about that kind of example. I'm talking about examples like Santa Clara who change their staff every two years (or less) if they don't win. And many other corps who you hear less about but do the exact same thing.
The people not in the top 3 area are always going to have to try ways to tweak things. I believe it is more approach than specific people. You need to consider that doing the same thing and expecting different results is a indication of insantity! It applies in both a good and bad wayActually, it's the "definition of insanity"
. And I agree with you. But I would challenge you to look at that philosophy from a different angle. Back to the Santa Clara example. For YEARS now, Santa Clara has been doing.........the same thing over and over again and expecting different results..........by changing their staff over and over and over again. They (along with 80% of the rest of the drum corps activity) absolutely SHOULD.............take a different approach.........and try KEEPING the same staff for at least 5 years and see what happens. If you uproot a plant before it has a chance to grow and keep trying to re-plant and re-plant, you are never going to see any greenery (insert Crown 09 joke here). That IS....doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. You have to give that plant time to grow and I'm telling you, 1-2 and even 3 years is not long enough for the right chemestry to develop. You have to keep watering, keep trimming (NOT tilling...trimming) until you see growth. 90% of the drum corps in this activity don't do that. They have an off year or they go through some growning pains and they panic, so they fire the staff and hire new over and over and over again.....and never see different results. What people need to do is start taking a closer look at what BD does and copy it. No, not the show style or the "color" yadda yadda. Copy the approach and the method for growth. It's tried, it's proven and it works. Furthermore, if you are tired of seeing BD win, figure out what they have figured out, try it and get some wins yourself.
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In regards to the BD successes, I really think (this is just my speculation) that it goes beyond the "A" corps staff. Blue Devils have created a massive organization, by drum corps standards, and they use it to their full advantage. Starting with the "C" corps, they breed their own talent, and do so in a manner that keeps the members interested and willing to stay. This way, by the time the members are of age and talent level for the "A" corps, they already have a thorough understanding of what it takes to be a quality member of the top organization, because they've grown in to it. It's genius, really. Start them young, and keep them interested. Does anyone know the percentage of members of the "A" corps that marched in a lower class group of the same organization beforehand?
Just so no one misinterprets, my comments are of the utmost praise of the Blue Devils' organization. I think they have it figured out, and they have it figured out well.
No disagreement here. The organization is a monster. And of course, some of what you wrote is the "not as simple" part of it and that is an element that is pretty difficult for anyone to match. However, I do also think that those elements are only part of it. SCV has a very similar organization and business model and they have been having some major struggles with staff fluctuation. Put two and two together, and I think you see a big reason why they have not won since 1999. Again, there are some things BD does that are so simple such as scheduling enough down and off time, treating their members right and treating their staff right that if more corps would follow their example, I believe with everything in me that they would have better results.
Here, let me draw you a picture using smilies......
This is all corps besides BD:
(beating themselves into a bloody mess trying to get through a wall when there is a door not far away)This is BD on the other side of that wall:
Any questions?
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OK. Got it. By saying "The others are doing it backwards" it seemed as if you were saying The BD Way of staff retention would be contrary to the these corps current methods, AND the solution to these corps problems. To which my response was, BD does not have to deal with these problems (hats off to them). Thanks for clarifying.
No problem. And no worries. I was definitely advocating the opposite of what you assumed. I think BD is the only corps that has certain things figured out. This conclusion.....actually a very recent light bulb for me in fact. Seen some things, reflected on some things and talked to some people this season that made me say "OMG, could it possible be THAT simple"?
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For what it's worth, the Troopers website no longer lists caption heads for any caption on their website, where as recently as yesterday they were still listed.
Newsflash! Welcome to the last week of August. Let the needless, unproductive and damaging drama of staff shake ups begin.
I'll just pop a squat here next to the Blue Devils and watch the drama unfold with a bag of popcorn in hand.
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I hear rumors that BD sleeps late a lot. I KNOW they have a relaxed retreat. What do they eat for food? Maybe everyone should do those things too.
Hey, you're starting to get it.
Let's all wear blue and black, and have our tubas wear berets. Let's put on shows that some people enjoy and #### some people off. EVERYONE BE THE SAME NOW!!!!........And now you've lost it. Too bad. You almost had it partially figured out and then you got silly and off topic and down we fall like a kid not quite ready to ride a bike.
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Time to Sell DCI
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
***yaaaaawwwwwn***
***snorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre***