Phan_of_Drumming
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Posts posted by Phan_of_Drumming
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1 hour ago, BlueStainGlass said:
Blue stars music and cavies perc are the separation
Have to wonder if there's room to beef up the percussion book before Indy...those kids are capable, and the staff is equipped to teach them; it's just a matter of fitting it into the show.
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Oh man - those spinning props look like they're going to take someone's head off. Not sure what they add, visually, but this music is just incredible. This is a Top 8 show if it cleans up, easily.
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It has sounded like someone threw a low-pass filter on the audio since they cut to the field audio (away from Dan's announcing).
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13 minutes ago, karuna said:
lulz K Turner with an upside down number the first show 🙄
Absolute malpractice for a judge who shows up a lot at the end of the season.
The Troopers had a great run - if you want to put them over Blue Stars in GE, that's totally valid. But a corps is outperforming their book on Day 1? That's what this score says. Completely useless feedback, in my opinion.
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Really? This is the first I've heard that...you are right...yep...it was the worse thing that has ever happened to DCI...24 million views...102 thousand likes...195 thousand shares and 86 thousand comments...yep totally egregious...
I see where you're coming from, but I don't subscribe to the view that all publicity is good publicity. In my opinion, her performance was a caricature of all the negative stereotypes associated with the front ensemble realm of the activity. It was hardly the worst thing in the world, and I rather enjoyed Boston's show and their front ensemble this year. But that philosophy towards performance isn't one that I agree with or that I would teach my students.
If we want to continue this discussion via private message, I'm happy to. But I don't think this conversation is productive for this thread.
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Well, I was thinking of the percussionists at the back of your standard symphony orchestra. Not much pulsing there. But really, even in a chamber ensemble such as you describe, even in a string quartet, there's nowhere like the kind of uniform bobbing up and down we see in many drum corps pits.
I wouldn't be so sure about that.
Take a look at that performance by the Wave Quartet (one of the modern powerhouse chamber ensembles of the percussion world) and compare it to modern drum corps. Get about two minutes in, and you'll find it's not that far off - and they don't have to communicate over distances of 20-30 yards.
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Lots of interesting points in here. Two quick thoughts:
To whom should facial expressions be addressed? The judges in the box or the judges on the field? What looks interesting up close may be lost at a distance. What looks good at a distance may look lousy up close, e.g., an over-exaggerated expression may sell the emotion of the music to the box but look ridiculous on camera.
I would say neither. And before I even get to that, I would caution you not to be too fixated on facial expressions. Yes, the Boston synth player was one particularly egregious example of front ensemble emoting gone wrong - it was a gross spectacle that distracted from the performance, it was clearly not genuine (as, over the course of the season, the outlandish-ness of the performance grew as she was swept up in the media attention), and it wasn't conceived with the aim of improving the ensemble's performance.
That said, facial expressions on their own aren't a large part of what front ensemble's think about when they discuss "emoting." Generally, when front ensembles discuss their movements, they're looking at the size of their pulsing and the sharpness and timing of their gestures (i.e. - is this a hard mallets up, is this a soft release or a harsh release, etc.). When facial expressions do come into the mix, they are - when performed genuinely - usually aimed at the other members of the front ensemble.
I elaborated on this at length in my original post, but to reiterate: It is emotionally and mentally draining to put yourself in the emotional context of the music that you're performing when you play that music as often as drum corps kids do. To be legitimately sad about sad music is hard when you've performed that sad music a thousand times in the last week. The emoting helps counteract that. It enables the students to look up and down the line and see people engaged in the emotional dialogue of the show, which (in theory) is supposed to make it easier for them to tap into that. In other words - "Johnny looks sad while he's playing so that helps me feel sad here, too."
The gestures have to be big because the front ensemble communicates over a large distance. If I'm the front row vibraphone on Side 1, and I'm communicating with the front row vibraphone on Side 2 who has my part, there could be 20 or 30 yards of distance between us. The gestures have to be big in order to translate, and they have to be big in order to be effective in achieving the purpose I outlined above.
(And this needn't be only about the pit. There were a number of close-up camera shots of guard members this summer who looked plain silly thanks to their emoting--but from on high, they were probably fine. And what about "The Wink"? A moment that brought the house down (on Saturday especially--I love when he hears the crowd reaction and laughs--but did the G.E. judges on Thursday or Sunday even see that? Do they ever look at the projection screens?)
And professional classical musicians generally don't move much, and hardly ever in sync. One big (and, I've always thought, poor) argument that was made in favor of amplifying the pit was that it would enable the musicians to play as they would in the concert hall. Why should how they visually present be any different?
Professional classical musicians don't move much? Since when? If you're referring to a large string section playing in a symphony orchestra, then care is definitely taken to make bowings uniform across the section. That's done in part to achieve consistency in tone quality and articulation, but it's absolutely also done for visual effect. But that aside, you've got the wrong genre:
The front ensemble is not a symphony orchestra. They are a chamber ensemble. And chamber ensembles move.
Chamber groups move to indicate time. They move to indicate mood. They move to indicate breath, and they move to indicate intent. All of that complex dialogue happens through motion. And when the size of the ensemble gets too large for everyone to be moving, they bring in a conductor whose baton is meant to communicate all of that information from a single authority.
The bottom line is that good front ensembles don't move for the audience or the judges. They move, just as they perform, for each other. Understanding that is key to understanding why they emote the way that they do.
P.S. - I don't want to derail this thread, so perhaps we should start another one on this topic. BUT, in regards to amplification: There isn't a front ensemble in DCI this year that would be heard over their brass line without amplification; and even if you just set up a front ensemble on the sideline, the only thing you would hear from the Lucas Oil Stadium press box would be the cymbals, the concert bass drums, and the xylophone. All of the gorgeous, lyrical writing in the SCV pit this year? It would disappear. And you can forget about playing anything in the bottom three octaves of your marimbas - none of that would carry without amplification. And it's not because the kids today don't play loud enough; it's because rosewood bars simply aren't capable of projecting that loudly without engaging in a technique that destroys the instruments and does permanent, long term damage to the performer's hands. Amplification enables the front ensemble to be an equal contributor to the music component of the show. Don't like that kind of writing and show design? That's fine, then we obviously have a difference in taste. But none of the great shows of the last decade would be possible without the contributions of an amplified pit.
It occurs to me that FE "emoting" is not unlike a snare drummer playing fake accents, or the whole line "splitting" a pattern - they are all examples of visual and not musical components of the performance.
A few posters here hold the view that, if what a drum line is playing is not audible from the sidelines or box, it should not be included in the efficacy of judging the line. In effect, visual difficulty in playing technique is irrelevant and should not be part of the judging criteria.
I wonder if the same viewpoint is held regarding FE emoting? After all, does the "acting" change the audible component of their performance?
Cognitive studies absolutely show that when gestures are attached to musical sounds, they can affect the listener's perception of the sound even when that sound doesn't change. In one study, the sound of a timpanist (I think it was a timpanist?) striking a drum was played over two videos of a timpanist striking a drum. In the first video, the timpanist uses a sharp gesture to strike the drum, and in the second he uses a flowing gesture. The study participants rated the second note as being "longer in length" than the first, even though the recording was the same. Examples like that abound in the music cognition world of gestures impacting what we think we hear. So yes, the motions do impact the audible aspect of the performance.
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Not exactly. Front ensemble movement is generally treated like any other aspect of the musical or visual performance - the students bring a certain level of performance to the table, and the instructors then gauge how best to go about unifying the look and feel of the whole ensemble. And yes, sometimes that involves instructors telling the kids to "emote more," but to call it intentional emoting - or just to flat out call it fake, or acted out - is somewhat misinformed. In my experience with front ensembles, the emoting done by the front ensemble is supposed to be honest and sincere. The kids aren't being told to look happy here and then look sad there; rather, the group is told to emote how the music actually makes them feel in that moment, and move accordingly to communicate that information - and here's the important part - not just to the audience, but to each other.
Not unlike how a conductor of a concert ensemble will beat time fluidly to indicate a legato articulation, or harshly to indicate a staccato articulation, the front ensemble is taught to move in a way that reflects their interpretation of the music. And the kids will usually sit down between rehearsals to discuss what the music makes them feel - and what shades of emotions they want to convey in each section. That's important because the supposedly "over the top" pulsing that you see is meant - just like a conductor's motions - to be about more than just keeping time, but about having emotional and interpretive dialogue during the act of performance. So while that emoting is in part for the audience, it is largely done for the rest of the ensemble, to keep them in the mindset of the performance and to keep the performers honestly feeling that aspect of the music (meaning - you move in a way that makes you look excited [because you are excited] so that the person next to you stays excited, and they do the same thing back, so you reinforce each other's emotional anchor to the music and actually feel excited.)
So the mindset isn't "Oh well I have to move as if I'm excited here so that the audience thinks it's exciting," but rather "I'm excited, so I'm going to move as though I'm excited, and I'm going to look across the ensemble and see Johnny looking excited, too, and that's going to pump me up so that I stay excited." This is huge for the front ensemble's performance, because it's an enormously difficult and draining thing to put yourself in the mindset of being legitimately excited about music that you've played thousands of times in the last week. It's incredibly challenging to honestly feel heartbroken about the ballad that you broke down into 47 different chunks at the morning rehearsal block. The emoting you get from the people around you helps you overcome that challenge and put yourself into an emotional state that fits with the music, so you're actually excited when the music is exciting, and actually sad when the music is sad - it's an enormously taxing process (both physically and emotionally) if it's done correctly.
Is it sometimes over the top? For sure. But I think that: A. Over the top emoting generally comes from a disingenuous approach to the emotional dialogue (in other words - nobody actually feels excited but they think they have to look that way anyway and it comes across as fake), and B. It's easier to ask somebody who isn't used to emoting while they play to emote more than to ask somebody who likes to emote while they play to tone it down, especially given that the emoting needs to be effective across the space of dozens of yards in order to reach the whole ensemble and the judges. And each group is different, too; if you look at the Blue Devils pit, they usually emote a TON, whereas in the SCV pit everyone seems to be perfectly in sync (in terms of tempo and emotional communication) without so much as glancing at one another.
On the whole, if you're up close and can see individual facial expressions in the front ensemble, less mature groups may come across as forced or insincere. But that's not a product of being taught by instructors to be over the top. That's about the kids not being comfortable with slipping in and out of intense emotional states for the span of a short performance. The more mature groups make this look natural - how many times have you looked at the Blue Devils front ensemble, for example, and thought that they were insincere or over the top? Chances are never. They make it look completely natural. And even the groups that struggle with this look completely fine from the press box level. The next time you're high up to look at the drill, check out the front ensemble and see how it adds to the performance in a completely organic way to see them moving as a unit.
The only aspect where a lot of this stuff is pre-planned and taught are things like setting mallets at a playing position, bringing mallets up/down to the keyboard, and choking cymbals. Those things are usually "choreographed" by the members themselves as a way of keeping time. It's the front ensemble's way of "dutting" before entrances and the like, because if they actually dutted they would be heard since they're on the front sideline. But those gestures are treated as wholly separate from the more general "emoting" that you're talking about here.
That's just my $.02 as a front ensemble guy. I know it's really strange for someone outside of pit world to see the kids doing what they're doing - and there are certainly many instances of downright irresponsible instruction on this topic (see - Boston synth player being allowed by staff to make a spectacle of herself) - but the groups that do it right are coming from a place of genuine emotional dialogue within the ensemble, not just pandering to the audience or the judges.
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Well I'm glad I got a laugh...that hasn't happened since I was last with my girlfriend. But basically what I was saying - and you may still disagree - is that the designers seem to feel
the need to keep one foot in the past to appease the alumni base, which is so heel bent on keeping "the brand" or "the identity". That holds them back from being more
creative. And remember that these days, GE is huge on the sheets. So yes, poor design or less than stellar design can definitely hurt. And I do agree with
you that execution hurt them too - especially in the visual department. Seems like that's something that has plagued them for a long time. And I would put that more
on the teaching side than on the talent side. I would also add that the horn line seems to have as much talent as ever, as well as the rest of the Corps.
If you doubt me on that, how many I&E titles did we get this year? Something like 40 out of 60?
8 out of 24 [counting events, not people]. Blue Stars and Blue Devils each had four. SCV had three. Those were the only four corps in the Top 17 to participate this year, unfortunately.
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Man, those snare rim shots to finish their feature...
I could listen to this snare book by itself and be entertained. But then I'd be missing out on the rest of this gorgeous brass writing!
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I LOVE the sound of the French horns in the Cadets show.
That said, their feature sounded incredibly dirty. At least it seems that way from close up on the lower level. Haven't seen their show enough times to know if that was just a bad run of it or if that's how it has been, but yikes.
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Does anyone who is there in person know why they're pumping a huge bass sound through the stadium speakers after the announcement of each corps? Is it just me? I just heard:
"Please welcome to the field, The Cadets!"
*ENORMOUS RUMBLE RUMBLE RUMBLE*
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I sadly can not see it
Wish I could figure out how to post a photo from my phone. Blue Stars had a donation ad in the Cavies show tonight.
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https://m.facebook.com/groups/629511790400979?view=permalink&id=1272418862776932
Whoever pulled the trigger on this deserves a promotion.
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Wow.
https://www.facebook.com/BlueStarsPit/videos/849234218509600/
I bow down to you guys. That was pretty phenomenal. Still stand by them as one of the top front ensembles in drum corps.
Just think - they learned THAT on top of their show, which is already one of the most difficult pit books in the activity this year. I put them and SCV in a tier by themselves. Nobody else could do what they are doing this year, in terms of sheer musicality, the amount of playing they do, and performance quality.
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1 - Blue Devils [86.75]
2 - Bluecoats [86.10]
3 - Carolina Crown [85.95]
4 - Cadets [84.30]
5 - SCV [84.25]
6 - Cavaliers [82.15]
7 - Phantom Regiment [80.35]
8 - Blue Stars [79.20]
9 - Blue Knights [78.95]
10 - Madison Scouts [77.25]
11 - Academy [76.35]
12 - Crossmen [76.25]
13 - Boston Crusaders [75.10]
14 - Troopers [74.90]
15 - Colts [71.85]
16 - Oregon Crusaders [69.15]
17 - Mandarins [69.05]
18 - Pacific Crest [68.60]
19 - Spirit of Atlanta [68.15]
20 - Seattle Cascades [64.25]
21 - Jersey Surf [63.55]
General Effect: Blue Devils
Visual: Blue Devils
Music: Bluecoats -
There's no way that scores can be this consistent between judges without an awful lot of private discussion behind the scenes. I assume all the judges review videos of all corps from the beginning of the season and share notes. The stakes are too high for judges not to agree. Judges likely have as much background info and collective agreement on complex show themes as possible before first viewing. Some of the shows are so luke warm in their conveying of their theme (if any) that it's impossible for even an expert first time viewer to catch everything, much less agree with another judges' assessment, so my guess would be they're already super familiar with each show before their first viewing. Just for score consistency's sake.
You're funny. The stakes?
Also, conveying show information and themes and where to look is all done via the critique at the end of shows. Most judges who see a corps for the first time are truly getting a first look, and are then told afterwards what things they missed.
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I've been going to live shows since 1979. I've been a marching band director (as well as college professor, director of bands), and only recently (about 2 years ago) I began to get a little ringing in my left ear. I am 51 now, so for 37 years now I've been in front of corps and bands. I'd say after 34 of those is when the continuous ringing finally crept in. It's not horrible, and I can live with it, but I know longer look for the middle section, mid way up sweet spot for volume and projection when it comes to tickets.
I think each fan, marching member, and/or director/staff member needs to know their body and routinely have their hearing checked as they get older. It is unlikely to have much of an effect on younger folks. There are exceptions. But as you get into your 40s I do advise having your hearing checked and taking precautions when necessary.
If you still love drum corps but don't want to be in harms way anymore, I advise buying seats on the 20s or 30s and sitting as high as possible. While not optimal, it's still fun, and you're still supporting the activity.
The issue, unfortunately, is that the damage which only manifests when you're older is done while you are younger. If you wait until your 40s to wear earplugs and are a regular participant in this activity, it's likely the damage is already done. That is what makes it so hard to convince the young folks to wear the earplugs - although the culture is definitely changing.
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Is there an epidemic of deaf drum corps alumnus walking around? I don't know 1 single person who marched or who played in rock bands who has hearing problems. I suppose some people are more at risk to develop problems than others, but in the 1970's we blasted our ears every single day with either drum corps, headphones, concerts, etc...
I can't for the life of me understand how a drum corp marching member can play with ear plugs in. How can you clearly hear your fellow drummers & horn players?
It's actually far easier to hear drummers next to you with earplugs in. Less ambient/background noise - more attack sound. You only hear the stuff you need, not the rest that gets in the way (and also damages your ears).
And I think if you went to an audiologist and got a real test, you would be quite surprised how much of your upper-frequency hearing has disappeared. I know kids who lose the top 3-5% of their upper range after just high school, let alone drum corps. Some of that is age, to be sure, but when someone has lost 50% more hearing in one ear than the other (and they stood on the end of a snare line, for example) you know it's real.
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I'm curious as to where you were seated during the live performance. I would imagine anyone sitting in the low seats would require hearing protection, but if you were seated up top near the press box of even a medium-sized stadium, I would be shocked if you got the same numbers.
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This corps' social media outreach has been some of the best of any in the Top 12 so far this year. They've got a brass page doing videos about each member, and the front ensemble/percussion page has a bunch of awesome show clips. I love it.
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Nice little snippet of the horn line at the end here: https://www.facebook.com/BlueStarsPit/videos/822298014536554/?pnref=story
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A follow-up interview with the xylophone player: https://www.facebook.com/BlueStarsPit/videos/821615614604794/
2023 Blue Stars
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted · Edited by Phan_of_Drumming
I say this as someone who is also very disappointed with Blue Stars' design this year: Taking public shots at members' talent is beneath any parent, alum, or fan of this corps or the activity. The adults are paid to do this, so go off about the lack of impact points - I agree. But the kids? Shame on you.
Edit: And, for what it's worth, not only is it beneath you - you're also dead effing wrong. This might be the most talented Blue Stars we've ever seen.