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onthe50

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    Suicidal Judges

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    I'll stop here and leave you kind folks with a thought: Anyone who thinks a drum judge, or even a "drum guy", needs to be located at this survey's "G-Spot" in order to get a good read of the line doesn't understand drums, drumming, or drummers. My son and I can judge a battery line from across the parking lot at finals to determine the quality of line we want to go watch. We can even identify with good accuracy a line by name (ours is just a game, not "scientific"). The whole concept of "maximum sonic clarity" is silly.

    A adequate drum judge can be running across the field to catch the snares while finishing a comment to the pit, while presently, in this microsecond listening to the splits going on in the bass line and watching the crazy sticking of the tenors. As he approaches the snares he's still listening to the gliss from the pit and complimenting the tenors and basses. To suggest that the drum judge isn't giving the kids "a good read" unless he's standing in that Sweet G-Spot does a terrible disservice to the work of the drum guys who can also judge.

    If you have ever been on the field teaching or judging, you know that positioning on the field is a major consideration when it comes to clarity. Being "in position" is a major training item for field judges and the instructors will demand that the judge be in position for proper credit.

    Maybe the DCI instructors will never decide to relocate the percussion judge. Don't think they have not considered it especially with the success of the percussion 2 judge. There are not many differences between the top few lines so is having a field judge the only way to discern those differences? Maybe. You still need to consider the opportunity to judge the entire section for 100% of the time without seeing the little green man running around the field while we think the corps are providing the ultimate in total package production value.

    There are flaws in any survey including this one. Discussion of relocating the percussion judge have been in motion for a few years before this survey was even done. The debate over relocating the percussion judge has its merits even if people like you refuse to even consider them. We can agree to disagree and that's fine with me. Let's continue to be open to new and fresh ideas, some may work and some won't.

    • Like 1

    Suicidal Judges

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Your numbers are nebulous and your statement of the field situation is overstated, IMO. The judge doesn't wait for the battery to get to the backfield and then decide to go run after them, rendering the "transit" time useless. He judges the pit when the battery is down front, judges the battery when they move away from the pit, then judges the pit during the ballad or other times when the battery is "resting" their hands and/or playing "fill".

    But I get your point. My disagreement is with your contention that the judge will get a better, overall, read of execution across the whole percussion section by staying on the track or in the box.

    And I stand by the contention that one of the reasons we have such killer battery players these days is because the writers and performers are under the constant scrutiny of a high-quality and highly-trained pair of eyes and ears, like Jeff Prosperie and others. If you take the eyes off the players by putting the judge on the track and moving the battery to the backfield where they can "hide", overall writing and playing quality will suffer.

    Instead, if this is a problem (and I don't think it is), put a second judge either in the pit or on the field. Or, better yet, just give battery judges "battlefield pay" and let them take their chances.

    Ok, lets break this down since we have a great discussion going here........

    The transit time is actually 21% of the show (from this very current survey from marching roundtable)

    FIELD PERC JUDGE PLACEMENT OVER 96 OBSERVATIONS OF WORLD CLASS DRUM CORPS - INCLUDING DCI CHAMPIONSHIPS MIN/SECS OF SHOW 1200-1300 TOTAL RESPONSES

    Transit 20.51%

    Pit 18.99%

    Snares 14.57%

    Tenors 11.74%

    Basses 8.33%

    Battery Ensemble 17.75%

    Cymbals, if any 1.16%

    Show complete or not started 6.96%

    As far as the read is concerned, MOST of the time a judge spends evaluating a drumline is spend in transit (21%). The actual pit sampling is 19% of the show and we can all agree they deserve better than 19%. The battery receives 54% of the evaluation. That's only half of the show? We can agree that we need to consider segments of the show where battery does not play....etc but the judge still needs to be in transit to evaluate the pit.

    The track is not an option. The judge needs to be in or near the press box.

    I agree with you about the current quality being due to the scrutiny they are under BUT, are we really getting great reads of these great sections with the current results of this survey? No. I don't think one of these drumlines would do less because there is not a judge on the field. They may even become more creative. Also, I can go to an August show and see the creativity we see in June because it's all still there and not deleted for ticks sake.

    Adding a judge just for the pit or battery is a huge step in the wrong direction. It needs to be a unified evaluation with all segments being evaluated with consistency from corps to corps. Having the judge in the stands where he/she can evaluate 100% of the percussion section for 100% of the time seems like a solution. The question is do we want to sacrifice a judge being up close to the individuals for those micro differences or do we want a 100% evaluation from upstairs where the designers design the show to be heard.

    I think they will get a great read from upstairs without the individual detail the judge can get now...........for 100% of the show.

    The debate continues.

    • Like 1

    Suicidal Judges

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    But, um, this isn't DCA. You're comparing high school and college hands to "I have a job, family, and bushes to trim" hands. Not to take anything away from DCA, but it's not even close to the same.

    So the answer is to continue spending 40% of the judges time going from the front of the field to the back (missing the pit/battery contribution while in transit) and upon running back to the battery, most of that time is "out of position" to accurately assess the skills of the performers all while providing a distraction to the audience to justify the difference between drumline A and drumline B's proficiency of vocabulary that you as a member of the audience cannot hear anyway?

    Add to that, the work the staff spends at rehearsal all day making the show work to the top of the stadium.

    makes sense to me........?????

    garfield - I was not comparing DCA to DCI. Just the fact that DCA seems to have "seen the light" on this topic. Thanks for the reply.

    Criticizing the "Kids"

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Quite frequently on these discussion forums, someone will respond to a critical comment with an appeal to speak positively about the efforts of the young people who work so hard and show so much dedication. Even more extreme in this regard is the writing on DCI's website and Facebook page, which has all the edginess of a corporate press release. As a parent, I'm sympathetic to this sentiment. On the other hand, I'm struck by the double-standard implied by this attitude. Just turn on sports talk radio during any discussion of college basketball or football--I doubt you will every hear someone say that we shouldn't criticize a players, but instead focus on their hard work and commitment. Do we really want to suggest that "our kids" in DCI (who are, after all, the same age as NCAA athletes) are too delicate to withstand the judgmental critique we all routinely subject university athletes to? I'm not holding up the way we treat athletes as a model, because it is way to extreme and objectifying in the other direction. But I do think that someone who is talented enough and dedicated enough to join a World Class DCI corps should be ready for the fact that their performances will be viewed and assessed not only by the official judges, but by all of us. To be clear: a rude or gratuitous attack is always wrong, but in my opinion the standards for deciding what falls into that category should be the same whether the individuals are governed by the NCAA or DCI.

    I think the MM's are tough enough to deal with the criticism. I don't think they should have to though. To be honest, I don't think sports radio should be as critical as they are with NCAA athletes. It's a GAME....... Sports radio is for a bunch of wannabee armchair players who want justice for their team loosing OR they want to gloat because they feel they did something to make their team win. It's becoming the same here on DCP. "Corps x has a crappy hornline", " this show is boring"..... I just feel that there is too much positive in this activity to dwell on the negatives. It's not worth it.

    • Like 1

    RADICAL IDEA. Discuss.

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted · Edited by onthe50

    Let's face it, with very few (1) active drum corps in New York state, the only people that travel to see championships are the die hard old fans. The corps with the younger members like Fusion, Bush, Cadets2, Windsor Regiment and the Buccaneers will bring in fans because the parents will come.

    Maybe special pricing for local band programs to come see the show would help? With the corps now using the latest technology, maybe the younger potential members from these band programs will see DCA as an option for them to join a corps.

    With the core group of Open Class corps getting better, the show is becoming a "must see" show. DCA is doing a much better job of marketing these days but the value is in the quality of the corps performances.

    BTW, nobody is interested in a July championship.

    FINALS NIGHT

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Honestly. They came out on fire. It wasn't a matter of one corps peeking before another. If your peeking finals weekend, your peeking at the right time. When we think they "Peeked too early" I think mid-season or Scranton weekend. That clearly wasn't the case with either of these two corps. I think part of it was the fact that, looking at the recaps all year long, Judges were giving the Bucs better top book numbers... it was the execution that hurt them all season. Given the energy they brought to the performance Sunday night, it would seem they cleaned up those execution numbers on the one show that really mattered. That being said, Cabs brought the house down as well with just as much energy. In fact, from a crown response perspective, the crowd was much more enthusiastic at the end of Cabs show. Bucs didn't get as much applause at the end in terms of performance energy other than what anyone would give for a big hornline that's right in your face 10 feet from the front set of seats. For that one night, the one that mattered most, Bucs were perceived by the judges to be a little cleaner.

    I like how you qualified the reason for the Bucs crowd response at the end of the show. I was in the stands and could not hear anything but applause while the Bucs played the last 15 seconds of their show (and I was not near the crazy pirates :pirate: ) That is a testament of their efforts on Sunday night. I have been to a lot of shows over the years and it has been a long time since I saw that level of communication come from a DCA corps. The Bucs were on fire from the time they stepped on the field to the end of the program. I know a lot of us jumped on the Cabs bandwagon at the end of the year and they were great on Sunday too. But, I was floored by the way Reading performed. The look on the faces around me told the story. Most people were just amazed. The guy next to me who was wearing Fusion gear looked at me and said, "That's trouble for everyone."

    Congrats to all the corps for their level of quality and entertainment this year!

    So I guess this is the end of the, "every corps goes up 2.x every week and nothing changes from show to show" that is discussed on this board. Maybe next year we can discuss the qualities we enjoy from week to week rather than the constant micro analysis of ticks (which left our activity in the 80's). Every weekend corps has ticks so maybe we can evolve like the corps have......

    Great job to ALL the performers!

    Reading 8/23 the Showdown before the Showdown

    in DCA All-Age Corps and Alumni Corps Show & Event Reviews

    Posted

    ok, last 3 corps:

    showtime..

    Then the real battle began. Entering the field for their show “Entrapment”, the Hawthorne Caballeros shunned the traditional entrance with the legendary street beat to come on to a pre-show with pre-recorded narration, effects and music to help set the stage. The actual show begins with Frank Ponzo playing a solo in the far back corner on side 2, followed by the contras.Frank seemed a little off. As the tempo increases more voices enter, slowly milking the rise and fall of the dynamic range musically until the corps turns and delivers the initial hit with the corps accenting it with a lot of body work. I too became “Entrapped” as trying to take notes, I got sucked in until the first contra emerges in a black top with red sequins, with the other brass voices adding in musically. This is followed by a percussion break that sees more members of the brass shed the famous white satin blouses for the back tops and a big ending to the musical moment. The ballad begins with a warm low brass sound and a mellophone solo, highlighting the guard who is well integrated with red and purple flags. The build to the musical hit was well done with a strong release,but seemed too short. then the piece ends with a trumpet/mello/baritone trio. The battery picks the tempo back up featuring each section, followed by a well done contra feature. From there the entire brass section was featured with the guard on weapons in the front that was very eye catching. This built into a company front push forward that felt like it could have been bigger, but this built into another big push to the end with again a lot of body work to help sell the mood. Easily the strongest the Cabs have been in years, and the hometown fans had to wonder…

    I won't lie...it's a ###### good show. My big concern was when the white tops come off, the corps proper uniforms blend in so much with the guard uniforms it's tough to tell who is who. Also, the temptress in the silver uniform...is she a character, or part of the guard ensemble? it was confusing to some around me why she at some points entrapped people, then did guard work. Frank had a rough night, which is still better than 90% of the rest of the world. I felt the battery had some issues, and one or two moments felt shaky as an ensemble.It seemed to me that Cabs came to the show playing not to lose. it was a good show but I felt they had better in them, and while I enjoy the show and would not be upset at all if they win next week, I thought this wasn't their night.

    Bringing Their "Favorite Things" to the field, Cadets 2 opened up with the famous mello rip to kick off Rocky Point Holiday. A nice percussion break followed the introductory part of the piece, ( and actually checking my notes from Downingtown, it seems like less of a planned break and more like brass notes were erased) and the next segment was very percussively driven with the brass staying low key until the next musical hit. The corps continued through all of the familiar parts of the piece leading to the famous “Z-pull” drill move leading to the songs climax. The battery seemed to be overpowering the brass, but I'm going to say with ahornline that size, it isn't the percussions fault, even if there are still some holes. The front ensemble had a nice feature to start “Hymnsong on Philip Bliss”, followed by a really well done brass ensemble that had the rest of the brass work their way in behind them visually for the famous musical moment. Again, it seemed if the brass had a lot more to offer in terms of power than they did. The song ended with the corps turning backfield and allowing the piece to die out in the air. “Children’s Dance” was next featuring the strong percussion and much improved guard, but did have a few ensemble issues side to side when the brass re-entered. “Ballet Sacra” began with the corps spread across the field playing backfield, but at times it was hard to hear the brass in spots. The corps led the fans through the very familiar melodies of the famous song, concluding with a big spread field ending, but musically lacked the power it needs.

    Bras wise, mellos aside, it was a really rough performance, and I hope thats fixed in the next week. There were still some holes visible. the ensemble issues happened in places they shouldn't, and I think some of it is visual design. The guard however is light years improved from a month ago, and is no longer the weak link. I was surprised the score was that close to Fusion.....I had them closer to White Sabers.

    The final competing corps of the evening was the hometown Reading Buccaneers with their 2014 production “Break on Through”. With the pit percussion staged out on the field between the sideline and the front hash marks, the battery percussion and brass are boxed in behind and to the right of them as the pit begins with some nice grooves underneath the contras playing Shostakovich’s “4th Ballet Suite”. The brass voices continue to enter in as does the battery percussion as the music builds, and being surrounded by the boxes and fabric, it makes the corps movement seem that much more intense. At the arrival of the musical hit, the neon pinks and greens of the guard uniforms truly standout as a contrast against the corps’ proper blue and black uniforms. From the hit, the corps charges into “Orawa”, first with the mellos, then the trumpets into another big hit, and the corps seemed to project from the backfield much better than they had when I saw them at Downingtown. The percussion also displayed some prowess with a lot of notes and features that stayed musical at the same time.The ballad began with the pit recapping some of the Shostakovich melody, with the snares adding in on several ethnic percussion instruments to create another nice groove. The music builds leaving you to think a big hit is coming, but they turn backfield to let the music softly fade away. For “Heat of The Day”, visually the mellos start to ‘break through” by getting in front of the pit with some playful antics showing they had indeed broken through, then taking the lead musical line as the song grows and more of the corps discovers the front part of the field, spotlighting the guard upfront and some well done percussion features. The brass re-enters on side 2 that still has room to grow little more. From there, the corps plays backfield as they do some musical recapping of the previous songs, and then the corps fully charges forward to more of “4th Ballet”, first to the traditional sideline, then into the pit area, with the brass splitting to the sides to let the battery in and the field framed by the guard on giant flags.

    Really, I thought Bucs had it. They had some hometown fire in their guts, and I knew it would be close either way, but I truly thought the Bucs had the night. if there's any weakness it's that maybe 2 spots could use some more brass power, and some more form refinement.

    there ya go. Not reviewing next week as i'll be watching online

    Great job Jeff!

    I agree that the Bucs had it on Saturday night. They could be very tough to beat this weekend if they keep the momentum moving like they are. The past couple weeks have shown why they are so successful. Gives new meaning to "breaking on through."

    We'll see the best Hawthorne product we have seen in a while this weekend along with Fusion's best effort to date. Curious to see the C-2 improvement this week and what MBI has. Is Bush for real?

    Can't wait.

    One more regular season show to go ,let the predictions rip

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Maybe, but at the same time, the GE Music judge blew the call as well, so reversing that and giving it the proper spread would have likely put us back at square one with the same overall result. It's funny how things can work out.

    Why have judges at each show if nothing is supposed to change?

    Maybe we should use the DCP, "add 2.3 points per week to every score" (or whatever stupid formula you want to use) with no consideration for varying rates of improvement.

    Let's face it, there are some corps who have staffs who know what to do and the end of the season and others who don't. We can only hope that every corps on Saturday has a clean slate going in with no expectations either positive or negative. I have experienced both of these scenarios in my drum corps career. The last minute surge is much more fun than trying to limp to the finish with another corps breathing down your neck. Let's see who handles it.

    • Like 1

    Reading 8/23 the Showdown before the Showdown

    in DCA All-Age Corps and Alumni Corps Show & Event Reviews

    Posted

    As the season developed, all eyes slowly started turning towards this show...the throwdown in pretzeltown. I know I often joke when I do reviews that I'm going to get hatemail like I used to, but this one may. Before I dive into the corps themselves, some thoughts.

    First off, Amy Snook and crew run not one, but two well oiled machines for shows and partner with great school with great stadiums. I've judged in the rain at Exeter, and the field looked great. When I got there, the Big Sounds team wasn't letting the weather slow them down and to them it was business as usual. Kudos to all for keeping things running as smoothly as possible, especially since 4 different weather sites listed the rain to be minimal if any and done by 7 PM.

    Darren Delaney...is there any better person at running a souvie stand? I mean ok, I wanted an Orange is the New Bloo Shirt and he didn't have any, but he had fun checking anyways :)

    Jimmy Gruber, aka the Commodore.....Here is a guy that took over a ship that was truly sinking the early to mid 90's. A Charter Member, ending up missing finals for the first time ever.....yet with solid work, dedicated staff and committee members, and a low key, humble personality that had the approach of "well if I have to do it, I'll do it"....he helped rebuild the Bucs into the behemoth they are today. We've all seen directors who think they are part of the show...not Jimmy. I cherish his pet nickname for me that he gave me my year with Bucs in 2000, and still calls me to this day. I'm amazed at the amount of time, energy and sacrifice he has put into the running the beast that is the Bucs. Sure other DCA directors, especially in the past got more press, but seriously folks....this guy is the real deal, an unsung legend, and one helluva great guy. Jimmy, I return your Sgt Schultz like salute and thank you for everything you have given me, the Bucs, and DCA. Your humble presence will be missed.

    Now, to some less fun parts.

    I really feel the lack of the field visual caption is allowing serious #### to be overlooked, and even rewarded. It's a week before finals, and you have people out of step, blowing visuals, horns up...and I'm not just talking the bottom of the pack. I mentioned this in my finals weekend review last year, but at the shows I have been to this year, it's even more obvious. With the game being driven by upstairs sheets, and the desire for weekend only corps to continue to do more and more crazy stuff visually, there is some god awful visual performance and technique happening. In a thread on here someone said "well the upstairs guy should catch it". Well, no, because that's not their sheet. Again, and I mean this...if I'm catching this stuff, it's obvious, and it goes top to bottom. I know where to find the points to being it back.

    and those points come from the communication sheet. It's redundant. The stuff mentioned in another thread is stuff that is part and parcel of every GE sheet out there. Being able to hear an effect judges every word Saturday ( and I do mean every, they were loud), if that's how the sheet is to be judged, it's nothing more than a clap sheet, because with one exception, communication was only referenced when a corps did something that got applause. And here's why the calp sheet thing is skewed as well as how it was judged Saturday....one corps didn't get a lot of applause. Sure it was the hometown teams competitor, yet communication comments flew while the crowd was, at least during the show, polite. Yet the hometown team Wowed the crowd, sure they were biased....but few communication comments came out. You have, at least at regular season shows, 2 judges responsible for 60 point between GE and Communication. That's a huge imbalance, especially since the sheet is, at least in this case, mostly applied as a clap sheet, even if clapping isn't happening.

    I'll let this digest, especially since I held back ( and I need to do some work) before I dive into the corps themselves

    Right on Jeff! There are certain aspects of this activity we have some to enjoy with precision and quality of performance being on the list behind the overall entertainment value of a program. I'm not so sure that the lack of a sheet is the culprit because the staffs would not disregard basic marching technique because there is no specific sheet. Professionalism of drum corps is and always will be a major consideration is quality of performance and scoring.

    The effectiveness of the corps you are referring to was very obvious at this show. Having witnessed earlier viewings of these corps, I understood the scoring at that point in the season but not Saturday. The rapid late season improvement by Reading is bringing their program to life and that is trouble for the field of competitors. I though their level of communication Saturday was like nothing I have seen from them this season. After seeing the recap, I was baffled. Its too bad for the members of the Bucs that they were not rewarded for the efforts on Saturday night. It's not supposed to work that way.

    As a drummer, I was more baffled by the drum numbers. I did not see the Cabs even close the Bucs. Or C-2 for that matter. I watched C-2 and Cabs warm-up. What's going on?

    Lastly, it was nice to see the Bucs play a post contest run for Jimmy Gruber.

    Looking forward to your assessment of the corps Jeff. I think we might have a similar take on the show.

    One more regular season show to go ,let the predictions rip

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Cabs 93.55

    Bucs 93.20

    Fusion 91.80

    C2 90.35

    Gold 84.00

    WS 82.90

    I don't see Reading topping the Cabs this weekend. In fact, I see the spread opening a little. The Visual Effect score from Scranton was WAY out of wack from what it has been like all season. I don't give that number a whole lot of credit, especially when Readings color guard was scored as low as it was. For that Vis Effect number to stand you'd have to think they were flawless but thats far from what I saw. Readings visual book isn't close to even Fusion or Hawthorne. They run for the sake of running, but not for any intent other than two big moves. They added in two different choreography visuals from the last time I saw them in Wayne... both of which are the same, so it' doesn't bring much variety. And they didn't make a clean form the whole night in Scranton. When I saw this number on the recap i was in complete shock. There were plenty of moments in the show where you were looking around for something interesting and there was nothing there. With Fusion and especially Hawthorne, you are constantly entertained at just about every moment. I know effect isn't about "entertainment" but content and variety should certainly be a factor.

    :dry:

    I was in the stands in Scranton. Didn't experience your take on the show. I can understand the fear as Reading continues to get better. It was a great show by several corps. Love the Cabs intro! Fusion's guard!

    99.65

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Let's be realistic here. 99.65? You mean to tell me that for an 11 min show, there were no minor mistakes or issues. I find this hard to believe. What this proves is the judging community has issues. To issue a perfect score in any caption is a stretch. What this say is the judges have reached their limit has a judge and having nothing educational to say. When this happens all of the judges who gave that perfect score should not be allowed to judge anymore.

    Just a thought.

    John

    Ticks went out in the 80's

    • Like 2

    Scran'n Predictions....Here we go!

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted

    ... I started the sentence with "just wondering". I didn't put down anyone's opinions. But I was trying to gauge how many people were throwing darts at a dartboard blindfolded. I just find it interesting that Cabs have won every show they competed in except the first show of the season and no one is picking them.

    I saw the Bucs in Downingtown and could not believe the improvement from Secaucus. The show just keeps growing on me. I can only imagine where they are now with the program.

    Not sure if Fusion can compete with the bigger corps but they are decent.

    Cabs are good this year but is it enough?

    Back to back this weekend so we'll find out.

    • Like 1

    Secaucas Predictions...(someone had to do it :)...)

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted

    I wasn't commenting on fairness or who is going to make their move when, or anything else related to the competition. I was merely commenting on the general lack of respect shown to anyone that has an opinion that does not align with the outspoken few...one in particular. It's why I choose to just read and keep my opinions to myself most of the time. I don't enjoy being insulted or raked over the coals for having my own thoughts or opinions.

    bsw1986, None of us here know what we're talking about. If we did we would be teaching or judging.

    50th Annual Drum Corps Grand Prix

    in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions

    Posted

    I guess we can agree to disagree.

    According to the DCA rulebook:

    The judge is to recognize and reward the quality of content with respect to brass and percussion, and the achievement of excellence by the ensemble. Emphasis is to be placed on the responsibilities creating variety, risk, intrigue. Achievement is defined as the simultaneous consideration of what is being done and how well it is done. The value of the composition development and skillfulness of the ensemble excellence are credited as they contribute to a diverse, active, inspiring, thought provoking, and unique production that demonstrates competence in training and expertise.

    Ticks went out in the 80's. If you choose to sit in the stands with your tick clickers and think that this is how ME is evaluated then I hope this post helps. When considering the definition of ME, I just think its crazy to consider the Bucs closer to Bush than C2 and according to the spreads "not comparable" to Fusion in Compositional Development in this caption. Really? I realize the performance flaws will affect the Clarity & Excellence sub-caption but you need to consider the entire sheet not just a bullet or two in one sub-caption.

    Not trying to be confrontational, I just don't think some people on this board are properly informed.

    BTW, it was great to see CV this early.

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