Vdad76
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Posts posted by Vdad76
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On 8/13/2017 at 0:39 PM, Tim K said:
I do not believe amplification will go away, but it will be coordinated much better. I don't think amplification helped everyone and in some cases, it seemed turf shows which I'm sure judges noted. The goal will be to have amplification so flawless, no one knows it's being used or at least barely notice.
I like your thoughts a lot, except I'm confused by your second sentence. I couldn't make sense of it, but the rest of what you said was good and should be what everyone is working towards. I'm just not sure that DCI or the judges have a handle on it yet and they need to have some guidelines talked about and on paper that would indicate the direction that DCI would like to see happen. A controlled environment that supplements the music or a free-for-all, which is where we are at now, or something in between.
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10 hours ago, jsd said:
Simplicity?!?
Seriously?!?
Watch the show again. There is nothing "simple" about it. If you really think that, you have either never taught or marched.
I have taught and I have marched and I have written. Please don't try and make remarks you know nothing about with me personally. I did not do that to you. You want to discuss things that I think, that's fine, but don't fly off frothing at the mouth because you believe I've denegrated something. I've seen the show and watched the show.
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18 hours ago, saxfreq1128 said:
Not criticizing your particular point, which was fair and not negative at all, so much as I'm responding to the word "formula" when it comes to BD:
BD of late is no more formulaic than any other corps in its stride, really.
You can compare them to a similarly championship-dominant corps, like the Cavaliers during their high period, but recognizable design tics were equally apparent for, say, SCV from 97-00. This is simply evidence of designers growing secure in a style that works. Or, TLDR: it's called Style.
Corps like Crown and Cadets, meanwhile, have done outright *sequels* to some of their most successful shows (so did Madison, with "Drum corps fan's dream," in the 90s.) So the "formula" charge has always struck me as a little unfair. Isn't repetition, and doubling down on what makes BD BD (or Crown Crown, or...) part of the appeal of a corps? I really just don't get the argument.
There's also the simple fact that when I watch three recent BD shows at random—reRite of Spring, Felliniesque, and this year, for example—what mostly stand out are their vast creative differences, not their similarities. I can absolutely tell they're the same corps, but man are these shows going for different effects, different emotions, different challenges for the audience. The "formula" charge just feels like an excuse not to notice.
I would agree with several of your points, especially "repetition, and doubling down on what makes BD, BD (or Crown, Crown, etc) part of the appeal of a corps?" It was always part of the appeal and even though it sounded more negative than I wanted it to, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. However, the argument has been, ad nauseum, this year that Bluecoats are bringing the same old tired and same ideas to the table. That they and many others have found formulas to follow and now just present the same show in a different setting. I was trying to get across that there are many shows by many corps that follow their own formulas for as long as they have been in DCI. This may not mean down to the visuals or even music, but in pulling back from the show, many things become apparent that have always been each Corps signature. I don't necessarily believe formulas are a bad thing or a reason not to notice. Corps are going for effects, emotions and challenges for both the audience, corps members and staffs, that they are allowed to now because of rule changes and challenges brought about by other groups decisions to stretch the boundaries. Formulas are what they and are a reason certain corps change or that some stay static in the things they do. Blue Devils have, what I consider, the best organization in DCI. It's the reason they are able to reload every year, rather than rebuild. The staff stays together for long periods of time, members come up through the ranks from C to B to A in their corps, giving them a set of things that the top group does not have to worry much about (obviously not every graduate gets filled in with a "JV" member). It is a set of things they basically have to start each season. They also have a set of things they do better than anyone else and a set of things they are lacking in. The staff writes for what they do best, knowing that they can do them incredibly well and the others are not emphasized as much or written to a certain level knowing they can compensate in other areas. Formulas work well and aren't necessarily a bad thing.
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15 hours ago, jsd said:
I will disagree.
Down Side Up was a one-off. It was the "perfect storm" of a show, in the right place, at the right time. When we look back historically, that show will be a side note.
Truth be told, both BD and Crown had better shows last year. BD should have won, Crown should have been a close scond, and Bloo should have (at best) finished third. I can make the argument that Cavaliers should have outplaced Bloo.
Crowd consensus and emotional appeal allowed Bloo to win last year. Hell, even the announcers were calling for it...
And yet, this year, their "formula" is tired. We have seen this before. We don't need to see it again.
I'm sure you can make the argument. This year has shown that many arguments can be made for many things. Their formula is not tired, it got hooked to an unmovable object and a show they couldn't clean. I love Cavies, Blue Devilsand Crown, but Bluecoats should have and did win last year. If you want formulas, you can look at BD. Great brass, percussion and guard, very average visual show, which was and has been a formula of theirs for many years. It's clean as all get out and the brass plays incredibly well, but the simplicity of the visual show is an amazing thing, and congrats to them for finding the formula that worked very well in the past and will win them the title this year.
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8 hours ago, Candid Insight said:
In your post you state :
"amplification amongst a very few and very talented few, with micing certain people that can handle the lines of difficulty in the music while the other brass line players play supporting roles, making it appear to the naked ear that an entire section or the illusion, unless you listen closely, of the full section of entire section of brass, playing the difficult lines. Auditory illusion! "
A few points:
1) It is not intended as an illusion. The 'small ensemble' wears gray uniforms, so they are highlighting them, not trying to fool anyone.
2) The high brass feature of the Blue Devils uses a similar technique, amplifying a subset of their high brass players. In fact, the Blue Devils place 6 microphones along the front sideline and amplify various segments of their brass line during their show.
3) Most of the top corps use amplification. You can tell by the extra microphones placed along the front sidelines that are in addition to the recording microphones used by FloMarching. One of the interesting things to note in this regard is how well these corps are maintaining balance while doing this - noticeable LIVE, but not apparent on the FloMarching streams.
4) If you attended an SCV rehearsal or have watched SCV on a You Tube video that features SCV's brass line you would recognize that the entire SCV brass line plays some very difficult passages and many of them are on the move, not stationary. While their 'small ensemble' plays some of the most difficult passages, the entire brass line does play a considerable amount as well while moving. If you want to contrast that against the Blue Devils you might notice that nearly all of the difficult passages the Devils play (note: Flight of the Bumblebee in particular) are played while stationary or moving very little. This is not to diminish the Devils - they are phenomenal. But to imply that SCV's brass line is devoid of difficult content is not accurate.
5) Amplification, like any key instruments, dance, and corps changing uniforms annually is probably here to stay. What should be scrutinized is the difference between corps that use RECORDED vocals (singing), versus LIVE vocals. Corps should be rewarded for achievement. Performing live exemplifies achievement, Hitting a button that plays a vocal does not. From people in DCI's inner circle, there will be some discussion about how to differentiate live versus recorded, but it is unlikely they will hit the brakes on amplification of live performance content.
Good points all of them. I appreciate you pointing them out and I'll watch SCV a couple more times before I see semis and finals. Thanks and again, good points and explanation!
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1 hour ago, cube said:
I believe the design of Ouroboros is equal or greater in overall brilliance than Down Side Up was.
I would disagree on your point. Down side up, was a brilliant show, beginning to end which was performed in spectacular fashion by the Bluecoats. Every thing that was in that show was innovative in it's concept and the performance of the concept. I don't see that this year from anyone. There are great shows such as, BDs GE generation in GE through its brass section - which has been flat out incredible, but I still see it as lacking in its visual concepts (not performance because they are performing it at a very high level), in that they just don't have the a very demanding or difficulty built into the show at all, in its visuals. Santa Clara has everything you'd want in a show, but again, one weakness - in my opinion, is the music which walks the line of people either loving the what SCV is doing in their brass with amplification amongst a very few and very talented few, with micing certain people that can handle the lines of difficulty in the music while the other brass line players play supporting roles, making it appear to the naked ear that an entire section or the illusion, unless you listen closely, of the full section of entire section of brass, playing the difficult lines. Auditory illusion! Nothing against it in the rules, but is the spirit of the rule being followed? We could go on and on as nauseum, but no reason to frustrate everyone. The rules congress needs to find a small group of the board of directors to sit diwn and draft something that would make sense in the parameters to which those rules need to be applied. Send it to DCI, work out the things that don't make sense, add and subtract, then vote on it. Right now it's the Wild, Wild West with electronics and amplification and it needs to be reigned in before it becomes a "the haves vs. the have nots" - which is what it is right now. Sorry, I have ventured into the area I should not.
Anywho, my premise was that SCV's show was not the breakthrough show that Stars was/is. It's wonderful, but for me, musically. It's an in your face type of show with no let up, which is something needed to allow the audience to breath and take in what they seen and heard.
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6 hours ago, BRASSO said:
Its a good question, imo.
I was thinking that several Corps have used vocal soloists in their shows in the past 6-7 years in the same way the park and sing ensemble is being used, through the entire show. I think it was a Boston that did it once and a couple of other corps. The soloists/ensembles didn't do anything to March in the show at all either. Did the statues (guys that were painted to look like statues) that The Cadets used last year do any marching?
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34 minutes ago, SFZFAN said:
Oh Noes! My favorite corps that won last year with a gimmick WGI turdfest isn't being given the title again!
Harsh and wrong.
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1 hour ago, E3D said:
I should report your post. with that mom comment. I did no name calling maybe you are a hurt and a safe space individual? If so then find the safety pin and put it on.
U are embarrassed? I guess so. you mention it multiple times in your post.
Sounds like you need to find your corner and stay there E3D. When you get over your tantrums, come on back and try to discuss things like an adult.
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4 hours ago, E3D said:
As usual any sort of criticism of a show and you get everyone with hurt feelings. People will be suspended because they criticize a show done by a corps. Or someone will complain that you are hurting the members feelings.
Might as well change it from a competition to an exhibition. Give everyone a retreat medal for finishing the show and the season.
But to the OP for this thread. I can't stand the show design, the zigzag ramp ruins the drill. I'm sure to receive an account suspension for posting that no doubt as someones feelings just got crushed. Or the best thing that has happen to me here is a hateful and threatening PM.
Wow, did your Mom take the remote away from you today? The things that make posting difficult anywhere is the name calling, accusations of someone being stupid or being made to feel that your opinion has no value and you dont have anything to say because you don't know drum corps. Then there is the whoa is me, the judges all hate us, the must get together every night and make sacrifices and put pins in dolls so my corps won't do well or the all make a blood pact that says all the other corps but mine can score higher in the next show, but mine has to score lower.
if we can make healthy criticisms, have conversations that will take the feelings and emotions into account that others have and decide we all have something valuable to say, then these posts are worth having. If someone feels Bc is getting shafted, wants to know why, then why, if following some kind of protocol that keeps in mind we all have our biases and not a lack of knowledge, but a lack of experience or understanding, try and explain that without references that embarrass or try to embarrass anyone be bad?
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1 hour ago, drumcorpsfever said:
TWENTY-TWO pages in less than 24 hours about the Bluecoats getting the shaft this year? Did I fall asleep and miss finals?
Yes you did.
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2 minutes ago, henry7184 said:
To whomever said no one will remember BD's show from this year - I laugh at you. I'm about as anti-BD as one can get. I sat there while the scores were being read at finals last year thinking, "Please God, let it be Bloo." I was so happy when they won. That being said, BD's show this year is absolutely incredible. SCV is astounding. They both are absolutely, without a doubt, the two best corps right now. Could that change by finals? Of course, but no one is getting the shaft right now.
If no one, a few years down the line, is not talking about someone's 2017 show, it will be the Bluecoats. Why? Because 2016 Bluecoats is the show people are going to be remembering and talking about. That's the show where all their years of innovation finally came together. It was like nothing anyone had ever seen. The 2017 Bluecoats show is basically the 2016 show with a different prop and different guard uniforms.
Agree with you on what show they'll remember, but really disagree on the same show, different year idea.
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5 hours ago, 3PoC said:
I hesitate to post this in this thread as I'm not going to argue scores and I'm not going to cut on any other corps here. I'm just going to make a case for the depth of Bluecoats show design for some of you who think it is just a fluff show or inferior retread. I will offer just my opinion that it is a much more difficult visual and musical book than last year, but in a year where GE and analysis judges seem to be weighing execution more heavily than content, any argument should be about DCI priorities and not nitpicking the other shows that are scoring better. Anyway, follow on if you have a moment (I do have an extensive professional background in this type of thing)...
3PoC's totally overly verbose analysis of A Jagged Line from a design perspective:
Firstly, it's a MUSIC show. For all of the "'coats are so pushing the envelope" talk, musically they are playing actual full movements of songs like we did back in my DCI days, including a drum break that is it's own complete musical movement just like we did every year I marched. Anybody here remember Stone Ground 7, Devil Went Down to Georgia, Black Market Juggler, New Country etc...? One Study/One Summary is very much in that lineage. The music book, from beginning to end, makes sense together - adventurous contemporary music with progressive metric and polyrhythmic motifs and strong melodic elements. It's a coherent playlist that is of a kind.
So what kind of music is it really? Well, it is clear that the designers, because of the irregularity of the rhythms, the way many of the melodic themes jump around in pitch and are bounced around, often in a hocket style from instrument to instrument. decided to go with the adjective jagged. The idea of "jagged" is inherent in nearly every phrase of the music book and it's simple word with a clear visual associations,
I believe the designers likely already knew they wanted to further explore a few significant developments they made over their past few years, particularly; a backstage type area so that performers could exit/enter view to highlight and focus on what they wanted to feature; motion on the x,y and z axes; surround sound design; full ensemble dance and emphasis on personalizing the performers. They took basic extensions of the idea of "jagged" such as zig-zag, back and forth/side to side, leaving and coming back, contrast, black and white, high and low etc... and put it all together to make a show that you can totally enjoy even with no attention paid to deeper underlying thematic concepts,
But they are there. Let's look at some of the significant thematic implementations:
The big center stage - well obviously it's a massive jagged line, but it also creates two fields - a here and there, a front and back, and a down and up. The show starts with an individual with a trumpet slowly going up and back with the words "Leaving on a train, don't know when I'll be back again" playing, and ends with a phalanx of low brass rapidly back down and forward as the music returns "home" to the main opening theme. They also return to using both sides of the field evenly as well as to a reprise of the signature move of the show, the fast side to side run that sums up the to and fro idea (and just looks cool). In between the leaving and the coming back bookends, the group journeys far backfield on side 1 where, beginning with innocence (notice the children's choir sample in the intro) they grow til tall, then during One Study/One Summary they make their way, starting with exuberance and near the end collapsing as they form a huge arrow pointing to the opposite side downfield, yet they rise in the end to triumphantly conquer the Zomby Woof in style on side 2. The center prop frames the scenes in the (imo wonderfully understated and unobtrusive yet effective) narrative.
The Ballad - Why are they going away from us? They are on a journey far away. They were just in your face a moment ago blasting the end of the opener. now they want a jaggedy close/far contrast and to move the narrative away to a far off place where they will experience growth from the journey. The classic hero archetype in literature always has a Yoda part where the hero gains wisdom and strength in a place far from home before they can take on the Vader (or Zomby Woof) character. Why mic them backfield and have the sound come out of speakers on the opposite side? Apart from trying to capture the sound design of the source material which brilliantly dissolves into ambient cacophony with the distant drumming and shimmering and nearly distorting reverberations, they are also going for a spatial displacement effect where the sound literally zig-zags across the field. Narratively, I'm left to use my imagination on what this represents so I like to imagine that it's like a disturbance in the force type thing that perhaps rouses and foreshadows the Zomby Woof movement since that side is where that scene will soon take place. I dunno, may be wrong but it works for me! I've read other interesting interpretations as well. The best song lyrics almost always leave enough to the imagination to me let me find my own meaning.
Color scheme and costuming - most obviously, black and white are contrasting opposites like many others in the show, but I get a distinct black&white silent movie vibe, particularly with the Charlie Chaplin character The Little Tramp. The Fosse movement vocabulary is pretty apparent but some folks don't realize that the bowler hat and cane Fosse character was his modernized version the Chaplin character, whom Fosse admired greatly. So I see the performers as variations of the tramp character, a good-hearted vagrant or vagabond type who wanders to and fro(!) getting into antics and surviving on charm, cunning and grit. But why Chaplin via Fosse for a show with such contemporary music? Well, I'm gonna suggest that it is precisely because of that contrast - old/new,
In drum corps terms, this is an old-school format musical product with modern music, wrapped in a new school "theme" which is premised on very old school entertainment vocabulary. That's a pretty jagged (time)line.
Again, I'm not gonna argue scores about this show, but I will argue it has depth of content (including incredible performance demand) that is pretty apparent if you look. The best part imo is that you can not care a whit about thematic construction and still throw babies at a great cohesive show featuring incredible performances of great songs!
In that sense I guess it is a lot like Down Side Up. And that's a good thing.
Peace!
P.S. Your favorite corps is pretty awesome too! Don't let competition ruin your appreciation of the corps your fave is battling. In 2 weeks this will all be history. Savor them all!
I like the explanation, but I'm not sure most fans want to have to think this hard about a show. You and I probably enjoy finding the backstories, the whys and wherefores of what has been written and put on the field both visually and musically. My kids (ages, 25, 31 and 33) are kind of split on it too. They have grown up watching DCI with me live and on tv. My daughters - the oldest ones would love the backstories, etc, but my son (the youngest) just wants to go and have a good time. He doesn't want to have to think about things too deeply at all. He's a throwback fan that would have loved it in 60s when people were screaming "higher, faster, louder!". It's just a matter of taste with fans. I know my son would hear Santa Clara and want to head to the concession stand because of the music they play. My daughters would want to know who the composers were, the titles of the music and think it was a cool show. By the way, the Zappa picture is great!
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4 hours ago, pudding said:
Perhaps if you'd read further than "mic", you'd see that I'm not complaining about the existence of mics in and of themselves, but rather Vanguard's specific use of them to solely amplify their strongest brass players to the level of being almost equal to the entire rest of the brass section for the sole purpose of giving their brassline less musical demand.That you think that visual is so important that it trumps both Music and GE in terms of accreditation is laughable. There's really nothing more to say on this matter, since any time anyone brings up music to you you immediately swerve straight back to visual as if that's some kind of panacea.
Since you want a breakdown so bad, let's go. Bluecoats first:
Sure, they do a lot of standing/body movement and playing. I'll note that in the other thread, you were incredibly in favor of body movement as having superior demand to traditional marching, so in the name of consistency I'd expect you to actually like that the Bluecoats are doing body visuals while playing. That said, about 2:30 into the Bluecoats show is an extended period of marching and playing, around 190 BPM, only 16 counts of which are half time. You also conveniently ignored the rhythmically difficult section at the end of their opener, while they are doing the follow-the-leader through the prop.
Lots of body movement during the ballad, including hip movement, kneeling, and standing up. There's also marching and playing, too.
You're quick to criticize the closer. Let's examine. Sure, there's a lot of park and blow. There's also a lot of your favorite, body movement while playing. You also seem to be ignoring the last moments of the show, the unwinding drill while the full brass line is playing melodic material (or countermelodic in the case of the mellos). Also, I would note that the brass line is playing in front of the staged shotgun mics, so there is no ambient amplification at the end of the show.
Let's move on to your Vanguard, shall we?
The opening bars are just random chords. Sure, there's timing challenges, but the big thing to notice here is that the small ensemble (hereafter referred to as The 12) are playing all of the difficult parts. By the end of the opening statement, the full brassline has not played anything more rhythmically interesting than a quarter note triplet, and has not done any more difficult visual challenge than a plie and some marching while holding a long tone chord.
Percussion break 1.
The brassline plays chords, while The 12 play triple-tonguing.
Percussion break 2.
The 12 gets featured as they stand on the props. When the rest of the brass comes in, they are immobile after having posed.
Percussion break 3 (long one this time).
The 12 plays a jazzy little number before being joined by the full brassline, which only starts playing once they hit an extended halt (the big > sign). The body movement during the halt consists of individuals swaying.
Percussion break 4.
Finally, some full brass playing and marching that's more interesting than long tones. It's short lived, though, as we quickly go back to sporadic punches in the brass and then chords while The 12 play the rip into the impact.
Percussion break 5.
Three whole seconds of sixteenth notes in the brass line as they jump back and forth before...
Theremin break 1 (Percussion break 6).
I get super excited when the brassline gets into pods, because they play interesting music (no moving, of course), but literally as soon as the third pod starts playing, we're immediately into:
Percussion break 7.
During percussion break 7, the brass moves freely into position to park and bark some ascending chugga-digga-duts. I'll allow the 16 counts of front ensemble to not be counted as a percussion break (although it is, since the next brass statement is a completely different musical idea). This next statement is a very Gaines-esque drill moment, which I enjoy, but again, the entire brass moment is only 14 seconds long before:
Percussion break 8.
Some nice brass after Percussion 8, especially with the jazz running.
This is getting tiring, so I'll stop here. You get the idea.
Any group can be broken down into faults when you look for them. Comparing things, at times, is difficult at best, especially in this activity. The compassion you have for Bluecoats is great, but it overwhelms the sense you have. It's a great show, but in my opinion, is not the GE generator that down stairs up was. Jagged edge, for me, does not give me visual/music marriage that exploded in last years show with the electricity that started from its unusual opening to the seem-less use of passages from several compositions and arrangements to the body movement, the sexy vibe of the ballad and frenzied chaos leading to a wonderful closing that left the audience wanting more. I like the continuation of the edgy ideas in this show, but it just does not click together on all the cylinders that the staff intended and needs desperately to be cleaned up to gain its full GE. Even with that, in what BD and Vanguard are doing in maximizing what they can do best is generating the GE, they need to cover their weaknesses (in my opinion - BD for weak visuals/design, which does however, maximize their incredible brass line and Vanguard for brass line weaknesses, covering by micing certain people to cover for trying to clean up difficult passages - something marching bands have been doing for a long time, for me - a design flaw in the show is that never lets you breath, just keeps coming at you). They are both playing the sheets and the way things are scored, in that scores continually inflate throughout the season, whether they should or not. This really is a seminal moment for DCI and it's judges. Do we decide what is more important than something else on the judging forms and make it a more determining factor, such as gymnastics or skating (you have a certain score for certain moves, tricks, etc and then score on how well you do that element). That would require a determination of many items and probably more judges. For instance, you would have one judge looking strictly at what is done, then scoring on whether each element was done, and one strictly looking at how well it is done. Imagine for instance, one judge is determining what elements are being done with a checklist (content) and the other judge looking at how well each was done (achievement). It would probably require the ability to go back and immediately look at tape to determine some things. It might also require that the show is mapped out by each corps, letting judges know that they have added an element or taken one away or simplied it. Etc. the same would have to be done for color guard. Music people would have to have scores and basically the upstairs judge would have to be looking at the score while the downstairs person would not have a score but would be listening to how well the corps itself, ensembles and soloists are playing - in tune, etc. It may require more judges, equaling more cost, etc.
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25 minutes ago, Treefidy said:
You read his break down? He got what he gave, but in far more detail...
Yes I did and I agree, but again, any show can be seen for its faults especially when looking for them.
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12 hours ago, Midwest said:
I have participated and have been following drum corps for a very long time. I have adopted the changes over the years with open arms. I love most of those changes and have no wish to turning the clock back. I start with these points because I know some punk will accuse me of being old school or for not understanding modern drum corps. Rest assured I understand it quite well and I am very familiar with the judging sheets and scoring process.
Having said that, it is a shame what the judges are doing to BC this year. I have watched closely all season and have seen the bias that is so obvious. It appears to me the judges have a grudge of some sort against them. Is it the guard outfits? I read the corps changed to longer shorts due to complaints about a little butt cheek or two showing. Is it because the judges believe it is destiny for BD and SCV to be fighting it out during their anniversaries? Maybe it is because they don't have enough pretty colors. I noticed BD has pink in their uniforms. That certainly must be worth an extra 3 or 4 points in visual. It apparently outweighs the extreme drill design BC is marching.
Unfortunately, the scores are simply the opinion of a select few judges. They are human and have biases. This years "collective thought" appears to be against the Bluecoats. That truly is a shame given the energy and talent this corps has. The message the judges are sending to all: don't do anything risky, keep your drill simple and clean, focus on having a strong palette of color choices and color guard, both have more impact on your overall score then drill, brass, or percussion. Fast is old school. March slowly and precisely. When playing, be sure it is loud and try to stand still while doing so. If you are going to march at a fast tempo, be sure to do it while not playing. And finally, never ever make the young women in the guard where something feminine. Modern women are not supposed to be feminine or sexy.
You are passionate about the corps you like and that's great, but judges aren't getting together and colluding to what you believe they are. Remember these are human beings too, affected by many things we are as fans, but they have adjudication forms to follow, they've been through a lot of training and are the very best at what they do. There is no "collective thought", they are interested in making the activity the best it can be. There have been racier costuming that has gone on and racier things that have been done on the field so nothing is groundbreaking here and would not get credit because it does not convey the shows intent more than a butt cheek showing. However I would, as a judge be wary of the edges being pushed by that and say something, if that happened. Fast is not old school, just a tool in the tool box of a designers ideas for what they find needs to be conveyed in the music. If BD, which I assume is the incarnate group you are complaining about, wrote their show to match up the best abilities of their kids and use things within that show to maximize what they present, isn't that as good as anything else? They are maximizing the credit within the product that they feel is best suited to their members abilities and minimizing the things that they don't do well. They are counting on their music to grab the GE and maximize their score, which they do well. I don't agree with the judges giving credit where I don't think it should be given in visuals, but they are very clean and doing things extremely well. Blue Devils are known for the ability to clean their show and make it squeak. A lot of their membership comes up through the ranks of the best organization in Drum corps, giving them an understanding of the job each of them have to do and how important the littlest things have on the final outcome. That along with a tremendous brass line this year is pushing them to the heights they are gaining. Bc is having trouble cleaning things up, which makes a hard read at times for judges and, I believe, have married themselves to something that constricts what they can do visually, which is part, a big part, of the package they are presenting. I think what they are doing is great, but in light of last years show, is not the visual/music package that generated the GE that led them to the gold medal last year. It's a great show, could be even greater, but having something on the field that cannot be moved is a difficulty in itself. It splits the field, splits the flow of the show and as I said earlier, constricts what can be done on the field. Each of the top 4 shows have weaknesses this year - I thought Bluecoats show had no weakness last year. What have they done to maximize their strengths is why the placements and scores are where they are (not that I agree with either right now, but it's falling out to that right now). We'll see what everyone can do in these last 10 days or so to generate something that isn't being done right now and where each of them find themselves at the end of Championships will be interesting. I remember very well, Star of Indiana coming in on a very big winning streak in 92, and were first in Quarters, send in Semis and Third at finals - Cavies finished first and Cadets second that year, so anything can happen, will it - depends on the staff and kids!
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5 minutes ago, Treefidy said:
You have me extremely confused with someone else. I think body movement is incredibly rudimentary dance/yoga and is rewarded significantly more so than marching difficult drill when it really is not nearly as difficult.
Moving on from that. Your analysis of the Bluecoats is laughable when compared to your analysis of SCV.
So here's my pudding break down of Bluecoats:
The opening bars are a simple chorale piece (Prelude) played by a stationary mic'd brassline. Sure, there are timing challenges, but the fact that they are being blasted over a sound system covers those up. You'd just blame the echo anyway. Meanwhile, the guard is dancing on a gimmicky jagged ramp (is that supposed to be as instrumental to the show as the half pipes used last year?)
Percussion Break 1. (While the hornline dances in a poorly diagonally dressed rectangle with bowler hats and the tubas stand in the same place for an hour playing the same bassline)
This percussion/dance break lasts 50 seconds, while the guard stands around on the ramp still. The last 10 seconds they finally run down off the ramp (where I don't think they were actually doing anything at all during the break) and the hornline switches places. The first difficult piece of hornline music takes place for 25 seconds, while the hornline members shimmy their legs while standing on the ramp. The guard is staged horribly in front of the field and the tubas have marched about 20 total yards in the show so far (we're 3 minutes in). The hornline exits the ramp in two single file lines toward the front and back, following the leader across the field while the baritones play a few quarter/1/8 note riffs, with the melos coming in with a cord shortly after. The hornline does some rotating rectangles while playing some 1/8 notes and rotate into a 4 lined wave form, where they will stand for the next 10 seconds of show while playing the most difficult riff of music so far. They then turn back field and play while marching in what I assume is an amoeba or some sort of Mexican jumping bean that turns in to snake drill. This is the most impressive part of their playing and moving so far (other than half of it being in two circles while being marched at half time) as the deconstruct the snake into a kite or something. It's pretty messy, but its a diamond with a tail. They do some body movements here and then...
Percussion Break 2. (While the hornlines do the some more snake drill they were just doing before, this time not playing, eventually morphing into two blocks, then one, then they disappear under the ramp.)
After 25 seconds of drum break the low brass emerges from under the ramp in some sort of poorly dressed rectangle (they like these apparently). The rest of the brass line comes out the other side and everyone breaks into 8 blocks, then 8 poorly dressed rotating lines, which eventually become a outline of a rectangle which eventually becomes umm, I think a stylized outline of California around the ramp? Poorly dressed lines rotate into the snake follow the leader form as they continue playing the same riff OVER AND OVER for 20 seconds. The riff ends in a chord then they construct a block while playing 1/16th notes. They hit the block and finish on a chord.
Percussion Break 3. (this time just the pit while the horns construct an arch facing back field.)
They eventually set their horns down and run around like they are airplanes flying around the field, then do some body movements while the baritone soloist misses 30% of his solo and finally pick up their horns, moving back field. This is the BEST MUSICAL MOMENT OF THE SEASON with zero actual impact. The kneel and play music and slowly rotate on their knee facing back field. The guard is doing some dancing in which a third of them are on a different count than the other 2/3rds, in a blob of some sort that isn't dressed while the hornline finally turns around (but it doesn't sound like it due to mic'ing) and plays a beautiful chord. The guard shrinks into a small dot and lifts someone up for some reason.
The hornline hops around on the tarp.
Percussion Break 4. (This one lasts 1 minute and 36 seconds. and ends at the closer)
The closer is literally 16 solos (while the hornline marches their most difficult drill of the night) and parking and blowing the most difficult brass parts. The show ends with the hornline in a line off of the field and the guard running up the ramp for no reason.
How'd I do?
Any show could be broken down like this if you are looking for the faults, which are pretty opinionated, which is anybodies perspective that loves a certain corps, wants to see them win and defends what they do to the bitter end.
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3 hours ago, whitedj2002 said:
Btw I respect everything you typed and see the validity from my bias, best coast perspective! :)
Thanks.
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3 hours ago, whitedj2002 said:
I stated you could excuse, or not, my observations, I am responding to a specific post. Criticism ### for tat! You missed that I am responding to a specific fanatic with imo....my opinion! Never looked for affirmation!
Got it. You're right I didn't see the specific post you were responding to.
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On 7/31/2017 at 5:14 PM, tedrick said:
we need a drum corps version of this classic satire song:
Tom Lehrer is a great one. Thanks for bringing this in to the discussion. I love it!
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52 minutes ago, whitedj2002 said:
Every show other than the top 2 are flawed. My opinion begins with skimpy short shorts and bras being about as non flattering as it gets. Time and a place, I just don't see the need... I find the sequins, suspenders, bowler hats (and their use) Quickly become a gimmick. Bloo's lunging and posing are not nearly as effective as the body demands exhibited by BD. Not even close! I think the jagged stage repeatedly interferes with drill. The striped dancing stick remind me of the WB dancing frog. Excuse (or not!) my pointed somewhere criticism is because I'm sick and tired seeing BD, and more recently SCV bashed for they're vision. Last year I loved Bloo's vision. This year I find the jagged stage an eyesore. Do it up judges! "Midwest" I suggest your bias should be examined not the judges. Where, wear aside!
I would say that your bias shows too, so you might want to exam it yourself. Blue Devils have used bras and shorts to their advantage themselves and many other gimmicky things as you called it - did you get tired of them? What is being displayed this year is the real dichotomy of two ends of the spectrum shows and it has turned into the Blue Devils vs the Bluecoats way. I would tell you both are good for DCI, but there is a division in the fandom reaching ugly levels. I will guarantee you that the kids in both BD and Bc are working their fannies off to present to you what has been given to them to do. Blue Devils are marching a show reliant on their brass to be the GE and not so much the visual. I would say they are getting their credits with a brass line that is great and is not having to worry much about about playing while running which is a staff that decided, let's put them in the place they can do best and the kids are responding. Bluecoats are doing their best to present a visual idea married with the music with more movement while playing, but are not playing the difficulty or cleanliness that BD is. I find the jagged line line that is right in the middle of the field to be constrictive in the visual ideas they present, although I think the ones they present are very good, but I find this years arrangements and show not to be the generator of GE that last years was, which was groundbreaking to say the least. This show very, very good, but not the great GE generator they had last year. I don't think they should be as far back (neither do I believe should Crown either) and this year should be, again in my estimation about 2.5 between the top 4. I think it should be that close. I think Vanguard has the best overall show, but it is show that never lets up on the gas pedal. It doesn't let me relax, it just comes at you. Crown marches more than anyone in DCI, very little park it and play, which is ok with me. It's hard to look at things in a context of appreciation for everything everyone does, especially when you "fall in love" with a group or a section of the country. You start believing your corps is getting the shaft, much like sports, it's part of the competitive nature we've built into things and we have a tendency to then put it back on the judges, like in sports with the refs or umps.
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15 hours ago, Schnitzel said:
This is quite an interesting discussion. A couple of sub-topics need clarification, IMO:
- Judging DCI, DCA, etc. is not a professional career. The actual pay is very low (much lower than WGI or BOA, etc.), and the "average" judge does about 4 shows per season. Most judges actually report a financial loss for their tax exposure from drum corps judging. If you do it enough, the frequent-flyer miles are pretty good, however. That's about it.
- There is some formal communication during the competitive season among adjudicators and administrators, but not much. Judges are most always professionally engaged in some sort of "day job" outside the marching activity - in fact, most use vacation time to judge shows. So the idea of this collective roster of full-time judges ready for deployment is not one based in reality.
- No musical scores, drill charts, etc. are ever submitted to adjudicators before, during, or after the season. It has been discussed over the years, but to this point has not been attempted. As stated earlier, the charts would change daily, if not hourly.
- I know it probably disappoints some, but the idea that there is any fiduciary link between a judges' scoring patterns and ANY direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community is fallacious and insulting to all involved. To a person, judges are first-and-foremost advocate/fans of these youth activities whose professional lives are focused elsewhere. Of all the hired labor in drum corps (administration, design, instruction, consulting, etc.), adjudication is easily the least financially profitable. In fact, considered from purely an economic standpoint, the pay and non-existent benefits are quite sub-standard in light of the education, training, experience, and diverse skill-set required to perform at such a high level. These are special people.
Great job of disseminating information that is essential to understanding adjudication. You would be crazy to try and be a professional judge, it just doesn't work out as a workable full time job. I've never seen charts given to anyone, whether it's music or visuals, in marching band or Drum Corps or Winter Guard. It would be impossible to do because the shows change so rapidly. I had a close friend who was involved with the Sacramento Freelancers in the 90s who worked with the Visual team. I got to visit him as they were practicing for Quarterfinals and he relayed to me that they had gone through over 400 charts of visual changes during the season, besides the over 200 they started with. That's a lot of changing for any group and I'm sure there were groups that were far past that amount of changes, besides the small changes made during rehearsals, made on the fly. I know that in drill writing now, we chart for some marching bands, over 100 charts to begin with and then make another 50-100 charts worth of changes during the year. Getting that kind of information to judges would be impossible, let alone having them understand it. Music would be even more difficult and with royalty charges along with paying arrangers and then making cuts, simplifying certain parts or transferring parts to another voicing, it becomes an even larger mess and again would make it difficult to get to adjudicators. Other parts of the music education business are very different as far as adjudication goes. In festivals run at the distric, regional or state levels, adjudicators have scores in front of them, but then there is no variance or changes made to that music and most states do not allow cuts to be made to published music and most do allow for handwritten music, that is not published. That is a very different setting. I would venture to say that someone who is adjudicating in any music endeavor at whatever level it is, has a full time job doing whatever it is most people work at in a day to day setting. Most jobs would be as music teachers. Some may be as instructors for percussion, color guard. They are drill writers, music arrangers and composers and even corporate officers in companies, banks and a great variance of jobs everywhere. They all have one thing in common, they love the activity they are judging and want to see it succeed in whatever purpose it has.
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On 7/28/2017 at 11:31 AM, GlenI said:
I think it's all about balance. And that's subjective. I remember the little "Curtain Call" that The Cadets did at the end of the '87 show. The crowd went so nuts that there was no way to hear the soloist. A mic would have fixed that. There's a time and place. IMO, amplification is like hot pepper, a little can wake up a dish. Even a lot for a short bit can be good. But too much and everything gets over shadowed. I think the activity is still figuring out how much is enough.
There have been quite a few times in the long ago that sound amplification would have helped, but in those shows, Corps took a chance, not always wisely, which cost most of them. Bridgemen in 80 when the percussion, which was up front, took off with the tempo and the corps couldn't hear what the brass was playing side to side. Was probably the best chance for a title for them, which went down the tubes with. Santa Clara took a huge chance in Montreal by putting the horn line across the front and going into the Bottle Dance from Fiddler. Crowd went nuts, corps was too spread out to hear, guard was off, ending not good! I can't remember a couple of others that I had thought of, getting old timers disease, but amplification would have helped, instead, corps took chances and it didn't work.
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3 hours ago, N.E. Brigand said:
Yes, which is why I disputed the claim that Bluecoats' drill is the hardest.
(That would actually be Crown. But I think fourth place is the right spot for them.)
Crown has done more drill than anyone the past two years and not just for the sake of doing drill. Great job this year too, I have enjoyed watching what they have done.
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Death to the Seat Poachers
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
I'm glad you say something about telling people they are in your seats, but.....it doesn't matter whether it's the first or 500th time at any event, there should be consideration for someone that pays for that seat. If you didn't pay for it, get your butt out of it. I've taken kids on all kinds of trips in my 31 year career as an educator and administrator. We made sure our students understood what was right and what was not right and if you couldn't follow what was given to you, even as a suggestion, then you were either going to be talking to your parents on reverse charges (roaming charges are just as good) about your unwanted attitude and behavior. if you couldn't understand that, then you were going home on your parents dime. I don't care if someone else is letting you or the people you are with be unaware of respect to those who paid for those seats or respect for your elders (adults, the ones older than you), it shouldn't happen. There is no way this person who wrote the OP is in the wrong and never said a thing about not standing up for themselves, and there are people who have a hard time doing that. So why not be the one who stands up for them, instead of telling them to stay home. Maybe the example you set will be the one they follow next time!