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SuncoastCrown

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    Segmentation: How DCI Has Gotten More Complicated... And Less Difficult

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    10 minutes ago, PamahoNow said:

    I gotta agree with this completely.  

    I watched Bumblebee closely last night.  What a fast, exciting piece, and there was a good bit of movement.  Just not at the same time by the same players, and the most complex movement by the entire brass was when the pit was doing it's thing.  I'm not complaining (I don't think, anyway), and they are being rewarded for it ... and I guess correctly by the sheets that now exist.  

    But I also watched Psychopomp and Zomby Wolf.  The difficulty of doing both the movement and the music at the same times seems much much greater.  And I don't even want to think about the closer.  

    I would think that somehow the sheets could reward both.   I completely enjoy Devils this year ... and think they are the best corps out there.  But I cannot figure out the way the Bluecoats are being evaluated.  But what they are selling, the judges are  not buying.  But from what I can tell, the audience is.

    I agree.

     

    Segmentation: How DCI Has Gotten More Complicated... And Less Difficult

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    44 minutes ago, hostrauser said:

    Segmentation: How DCI Has Gotten More Complicated... And Less Difficult

    Of all the changes DCI has undergone so far in the 21st century--any key brass, amplification, electronics, generalized body movement increasingly replacing marching/drill, the move from corps-specific uniforms to show-specific costumes--the change that has affected my enjoyment of the activity the most has been the increasing segmentation of show design.

    This is a reward-based activity, so if a change doesn't boost the score (when utilized correctly) it will fall by the wayside. So perhaps my argument is that the DCI sheets are due for another overhaul. Perhaps I think that the sheets aren't rewarding the correct aspects of the performance in the correct proportion. And, like anything else in this activity, my opinion is as subjective as anyone else's. For every person that comes onto DCP and shouts "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" at DCI there is someone else who thinks they are doing it right, and they eagerly dive into that day's monkey slap-fight in Thread X.

    And, of course, it goes without saying that these are concerns regarding show design and scoring, not performance caliber or effort from the kids. I try REAL hard not to slide into dinosaurhood with regards to drum corps, but the bottom line is drum corps is about the performers NOT the fans. Some fans have strong issues with this, but the simple fact is that the time and money we put into this activity as fans doesn't come close to outweighing the time and money put into this activity by the performers.

    So, with the usual caveats in place, here's what's bothering me about DCI as of 2017...

    1. SEGMENTATION OF MUSIC
    To this day I consider the 2009 Blue Devils' show "1930" to be the easiest ensemble brass book to win DCI in the modern era. Visual, guard, and percussion were all smoking in that show, but the brass was carried by a small handful of extremely skilled soloists while the full ensemble played long tones and not a whole heck of a lot else. The show was almost at the level of a Concerto for Brass Soloists and Drum Corps. And when it scored 99.05 at Finals, we were off to the races with regards to musical segmentation (specifically brass).

    I say specifically brass due to the relative limitations of segmenting the percussion section. The field battery has a limited number of both performers and pitches. They might break into smaller ensembles a time or two during the show, but one really skilled snare drummer can't carry the whole snare line: the way percussion is written doesn't really allow for it. The front ensemble has a few more options, but again their limited numbers require more cohesiveness to be effective in the full ensemble sound.

    Brass, on the other hand, you can slice and dice a million different ways: soloists, duets, ensembles of 6 or 10 or 20, high instruments, low instruments, concert instruments (like trombones and french horns), the possibilities are endless. By creatively breaking apart the ensemble over and over again, you can have your 10 or 20 strongest players carry the entire difficulty load of whole brass book, lessening the impact of your "weakest" performers and making cleaning the ensemble sound a whole lot easier.

    I'm not saying solos and small ensembles should be banned. Nor am I saying they don't present their own unique challenges to perfect. But it's also a bit of a smoke and mirrors act with regards to difficulty. Let's say you have an 80-member horn line. The top 25% play challenging music for 10 minutes of the show, the 2nd 25% play challenging music for 8 minutes, the 3rd group for 6, and the bottom 25% for only 4. Your brass line has 560 "player-minutes" of challenging music in the book. Now let's say there's another 80-member horn line that focuses more on a whole (large) ensemble sound. Their top 50% plays challenging music for 10 minutes, and their bottom 50% plays challenging music for, 6 minutes of the show. They have 640 player-minutes of challenging music. It's hard to combine subjectivity and analytics, but the second group has arguably a much harder brass book for the ensemble as a whole.

    I do not think the DCI sheets and/or judges currently reward/consider this at appropriate levels. Cleanliness is--and always has been--king in DCI. And it is far easier to clean an ensemble, match intonation, address tone quality problems, etc. when there are only 10 or 20 performers as opposed to 80. In modern DCI, the MORE your whole ensemble is playing the harder it will be to get a good score. That doesn't seem correct.

    2. SEGMENTATION OF VISUAL
    My realm of knowledge in music is far broader than in visual, so this won't be quite as in depth. Also, I don't want to repeat myself too much and a lot of the same principles apply: cleaning four batches of 20 is far easier than one batch of 80, particularly when the four batches of 20 are spread across seventy yards and their movements are not interconnected or uniform.

    Sure, it adds wonderful layering. And complexity of a sort. But since drum corps has gotten to this point it also largely eliminated the single-most difficult part of visual design: transitions. No need any more to write a challenging drill move to maneuver the right instruments to the right positions for the next segment. Just have Pod 1 finish their body movement and do a flutter/scatter drill twenty yards to their left where they will join half of Pod 3 for the next body movement segment. Meanwhile Pod 6 is still on the back forty doing completely different movements because Pod 6 is jerks. Oh look! All the pods have joined together to form one large ensemble that... does 32 counts of follow-the-leader or jazz running before breaking up and fluttering away to their next pod/body movement assignment.

    The warning sign, in retrospect, came a few years ago when visual ENSEMBLE became visual ANALYSIS, and musical ENSEMBLE became music ANALYSIS. The ENSEMBLE aspect of drum corps just doesn't seem to matter a whole lot any more, and that makes me sad.

    3. COORDINATION OF ELEMENTS
    I'm sure we've all seen the 2017 Blue Devils by this point. They play very, very well. They move very, very well. And they almost NEVER do both at the same time. There's what, ten or fifteen seconds at the end of Flight of the Bumblebee where the brass is trucking with both fingers and feet simultaneously. Otherwise, all the difficult movement occurs by performers with their horns down, while the hard music is performed by small groups stationed and immobile on the staircases. And then there's the park and bark. Oh sure, you can throw in a few lunges and leans, maybe a stanky leg or two, just so you aren't COMPLETELY immobile while you're playing, but come on. It's still park and bark, just "new" park and bark.

    I pick on the Blue Devils, but they're just THE BEST at it, they're not the only ones doing it. I like Vanguard's show better this season, but their design definitely seems to have been of the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mindset. SCV is going to have their best finish in almost 20 years essentially by performing a Blue Devils visual book. I guess that's both a compliment and a criticism.

    I look back over the past five or ten years, and almost all my favorite musical moments do not have WOW visual moments accompanying them. And vice versa for the great visual moves. The Bluecoats seem to be the best at maxing out visual and musical effect simultaneously these days, but look where that's gotten them in 2017: 4th place. They just can't get clean enough to match the BD's and SCV's who aren't trying to do so much all at once.

    Which, if I recall, was the whole point of moving away from the tick system in the first place.

    The tick system was only about error. Doesn't matter what you're doing, just don't make mistakes. The build-up scoring system was introduced in 1984 to allow for more creativity. And yet, over the course of about 30 years it has slid back into the same trap as the tick system: doesn't matter what you're doing, just don't make mistakes. Be creative, but not TOO creative. What you are doing and how well you are doing it, except the "how well" is about 90% of the emphasis seemingly.

    And that's how we got to where we are today. Avoiding ensemble difficulty (because it's much too hard to clean). Breaking drum corps shows into pieces so we have COMPLEXITY shifting the full weight of the show's difficulty onto a small portion of the corps' most elite performers. The criteria and judging rewards this, encourages it.

    This isn't what I want drum corps to be. And in THAT regards, I guess I am part of a very large ensemble.

    Nice well constructed and illuminating argument.  I feel like I understand much of the bickering on DCP now a little better.  The really big question is whether or not there is a solution that would fix those issues and make DCI stronger.  I for one, am interested in hearing possible solutions, but I also wonder how many agree that these are issues that need to be fixed.  Any ideas?

    • Like 1

    Question about Winston-Salem/BB&T stadium

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    i went to the show two years ago and sat in an aisle seat on the bottom row on the 40.  The seat was fairly comfortable with a back on it.  I don't remember whether or not there was arm rests. The thing I remember the most though was how very tight the rows are.  Granted, I am 6' and about 280, but my knees rested on the  rail in front of me.  I am so glad I didn't sit in the middle of the section--it would have been real uncomfortable.  I am going again this year and taking an aisle seat again.

    • Like 1

    Why doesn't DCI love the West Coast?

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Well the problem with getting all the corps to come West is corps like Boston, the Cadets, and Crown. They would have to drive across the country for that. I believe that is one heck of a stretch of road. Since Crown goes as far as Texas.... Right? So does Boston and the Cadets?

    I believe Crown made the trip out west in 2013, and their butting heads with BD all season probably helped them in the run for the gold. I could see why they don't make that run every year, though, as the increased cost is probably quite a bit. If I were them, why would I do that every year if I didn't have to? I sympathize with the point of the original post though. If I lived on the west coast I wouldn't be happy with this current arrangement either.

    • Like 1

    Adjudication 101: Straight from DCI

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    There are elements of it that are constantly changing simply because what we consume as "art" changes from a cultural perspective, and what we define as successful from a creative standpoint changes over time. An example would be this: compare/contrast the movies of the late Seventies with the superhero blockbusters of today: they are two completely different aesthetics. Is one better than the other? This question is where perspective comes into play. Personally, I prefer the pacing, nuance, and storytelling of late Seventies cinema over what is out today, but that doesn't mean I cannot give credit where credit is due. Michael Bay's films do not speak to me aesthetically, but dude is the master of eye candy. If I am judging GE, I may have a preference for a certain treatment and approach towards the activity, but I still have to credit all of the new trends that reflect the aesthetics of today's approach to creativity.

    Here's an example from WGI: in the late 90's, if you didn't have a reason to throw a toss (musicality, ensemble effect, using it to put an "exclamation point" at the end of a phrase, etc), you would get crushed from a design standpoint in both equipment and GE, because it was seen as an interruption to the length of phase component (which was lauded at the time; go watch shows by San Jose Raiders/Blue Devis (same design team), the Emerald Marquis, Bishop Kearney, Center Grove...phrase length was WAY longer than anything on the floor today). The same thing was happening in DCI at the time; the old approach of "pick some tunes you like, slap them together, fabricate a title and call it a day" was being replaced by the notion of through line storytelling, in which the designers were attempting to create shows that had a beginning, middle, and end from a storyline standpoint. If you didn't evolve with those design choices, your placement and numbers would become stagnant. Here's an example: BD, after winning in '86 did not finish any higher than third for the next six years (and were consistently in fourth place). Why? The design aesthetics were changing, but as a creative team, they were not. The "old" approach to show design was no longer garnering championship numbers. The result? They figured it out and we got "My Spanish Heart", which took the concept of storytelling from top to bottom to a new level and allowed them to get on the run they have been on ever since, which is the aesthetic that was being supported by the numbers at the time. If you put that show, beat for beat, on the field today, it may garner some success, but there's no way it finishes top 6 because it would look anachronistic when compared to today's show aesthetic.

    The best advice I ever received from someone in the higher ups of judging was this: "Trends and tastes may change, but the elements of art and the principles of design do not. You must be knowledgeable of both".

    So, GE judges, at all times and at all points in history, must be well versed in the elements of art, principles of design, and what is happening right now as trends in all creative activities. While much of that may be concrete, it is also fluid and reflexive, and this is mirrored on the sheets.

    Interesting explanation. If I understand you correctly, I believe that the judges' scoring is more subjective analysis based on the opinions and preferences of the judge than it is concrete objective direction driven by policy makers at DCI. Obviously, there is some of both, but I wonder how much of each is at play in judging. Using your BD example, I wonder if BD might not have scored lower because there was a type of evaluation from the judges being exercised that was not reflected in the written objective guidelines. It sounds to me like there is some guesswork involved by the drum corps in understanding what the judges want. As successful an organization as BD is, I would think that they would have been quicker at adapting if the changes were actually stated policies of evaluation.

    Adjudication 101: Straight from DCI

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    With respect, they've done the best they can to find judges with exposure in both, but for decades, judges (including GE judges), specialized in one or another. We have some very fine judges (I'll use Nola Jones as an example) who grew up in both the musical and visual world. The judges who have long judged one or the other are receiving training to react to both music and visual...such as how well the visual expresses the music and vice-versa. I expect that as time goes on, the upcoming crop of GE judges will come from both worlds because it will become increasingly difficult to judge the future GE captions with a single emphasis in one's background and training.

    In essence, the GE judge is being asked to respond to the effectiveness and emotional presentation much like we as audience members do. Despite having a percussion background, I respond more to brass books and drill, though I appreciate percussion. Unless someone is really focused on a particularly element, they tend to look at the entire show to achieve the most satisfaction.

    But I think most would agree that many GE judges, for now, haven't grown up in both the musical and visual world, and so, for now, it's important to have one GE judge with a visual emphasis and background and one judge with a musical emphasis and background. And that way, things can balance themselves out. Judging is an art and a science, but it's always changing, just as the activity is changing. The best judges always run a little bit scared, continually seeking out additional training and understanding of the various elements of the activity so that they don't fall behind. Only a judge convinced they already know everything would be ineffective in the rapidly changing world of drum corps.

    For the record, I haven't met any judges I felt believed they already knew it all. I know music judges that are now attending modern dance events and visual judges attending symphonic orchestra concerts because they know they need to step up their understanding of the complete show to remain viable as a judge. The show designers putting together today's shows don't care that a judge might not understand something in the show; they only care that they're giving the members of their corps the best product and experience they can. They're well aware that when they think they've got things figured out, someone with another corps has changed the rules by coming up with something new and innovative.

    The only thing about drum corps that isn't changing is our love for it.

    Who then, decides the direction in which judging changes and what is acceptable change and what is not?

    2015 Finals

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Hey, one other thing. Although I am obviously a Crown fan, after a couple of minutes feeling big disappointment in them not winning, I got over it. Why? This summer I got to see my first live DCI performance at TOC--Nightbeat in Winston-Salem, NC, on July 26th. After I saw the Blue Devils for the first time, I turned to the person beside me and told them I can see why they have won 16 titles if they are this good all the time. WOW! I did not like their show better than Crowns', Bluecoats' or even SCV's, but I thought they were all really awesome in different ways. The entire top five really blew me away, and I did not let my loyalties for Crown get in the way of seeing the shows for the great shows that they were. Although I don't like how the Blue Devil's have such a dominant dynasty right now like so many other people, I still look forward to seeing what the Blue Devils will put out next year. I am sure they will amaze me and entertain me again. Many on DCP have noted what a great year it has been for Drum Corps, and like it or not, BD deserves much of the credit--its not their show I'm talking about but their continually top notch product that they put out pushes the rest of the corps that much harder in their pursuit of excellence. Bravo BD, good luck next year, and may Crown pass you up again in 2016 like they did in 2013. :tounge2::tounge2::tounge2::tounge2::tounge2:

    • Like 1

    2015 Finals

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    ummmm everyone at finals gets a medal. So everyone can be happy now and this can be closed.

    Let's take it one step further--let's give everyone the same score and send them home with a pat on the back. No more rewards for excellence, just reward for attendance and make everyone feel good. That's how some schools are doing it nowadays. (Warning: heavy sarcasm content, reader be advised).

    An Open Letter to the Vets Marching Next Year

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Dear Lord :

    Please forgive those who post on here their open letters to anonymous people they do not know, and who know not them. They mean no harm in their open letters to anonymous people. Yes, we realize they used this site to avoid postage stamps too. But they are simply expressing their frustration that the same corps win all the time, and I'm sure even you Lord find vexxing that nasty Blue Devil from time to time. So heres hoping you will understand where this frustration is coming from, and if you should find it in your power to have a penalty at Finals next year at Indy instead of the Quarters for that nasty Blue Devil, we would be eternally grateful. Thank you Lord.

    Amen.

    • Like 1

    Thursday at the Theater

    in DCI World Class Corps Discussions

    Posted

    Just came back home from The Grand in Winston-Salem, NC. After driving half an hour to get there I found out the projector broke down and they cancelled the show. They have 18 auditoriums, but it has to be the one that was supposed to show Big, Loud and Live that breaks down. I'm not a happy camper right now. :unhappy::unhappy::unhappy::unhappy::unhappy:

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