sky
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Posts posted by sky
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Hey Steve, kinda remember having this discussion with someone years ago about one of the Armys musical groups. Think the funding for Armed Forces musical groups falls under "Publicity" which means it's the same pots of money used to put "US Army" on the NASCAR racers. Forget how the Service Academies fund trips for their Drum Corps.
Geesh, too bad Cindy Crawford isn't on line right now as she grew up with a lot of this.
Hi, Jim,
Well, I believe all the services are pretty much the same, but I'm certain that in the USAF all the "members" are regular enlistees except for the USAF Academy corps which is comprised of cadets. In DC, we flew regular AF aircraft (some good, some bad), had our own tour busses and, above our regular pay, we were paid per diem for tours and travel. Our "Squadron" had its own PR guy, recording production, announcer/MC, and road crew. Generally the publicity part was handled by the local or regional newspapers who "sponsored" the performances which had to be free (our tax $$$ at work, ya know!).
I'd guess that there are entirely separate units to handle TV and radio commercials, websites, etc. and probably another one that handles those NASCAR and other sponsorships, too. It's not like they have budget problems! I'd bet they have separate chains of command regardless of the branch of service.
Steve
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Liam,
Thanks for the compliment. I agree, this is an interesting topic: lots of detail and specifics like corps programs but not just based on opinion as are so many of the other posts about "who's the best___, etc."
Your last post, the list, was great. As an example of how complicated these things can get, I used to work for the Corning Museum of Glass which is a non-profit organization separate from the Corning, Inc., the corporation. It's located on corporate property and physically connected to the Steuben Factory, a for profit division of Corning. Most of the museum's funding came from the corporation (great showcase for the corp.) but legally it was a separate entity so all the contributions were deductible. Steuben lost money regularly (maybe still does) but they kept it going because it really defined the art of lead crystal glass and kept Corning a leader in the art glass world. There also used to be a third entity in the building, The Glass Center, which as another corporate division sold glass, gifts and food but that has since been "given" to the museum because it wasn't very profitable. Visitors generally didn't know or care about the legal and operational distinctions but it sure effected the employees (and members!) and operations. BTW, it's a much better place now and a great place to visit.
SKY
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After all that I said, I can now say that the simple answer is simply, "No--DCI would not allow such a beast." My purpose was filling in some of the issues as to why such a thing would not work.
Now, fill up a 3-hour performance with a live DC with paid professionals doing all sorts of different performances and you've got something. Heck, just the "niche" market would pay to see such a thing in February me thinks!
As for the term "professional" coming into the discussion, professionals work for non-profit symphonies all over the country. Again, paid staff work for United Way, Salvation Army, etc. In this sense, the Dallas Symphony is no different than Baptist Men's Association or Boy Scouts of America. "Professional" has no bearing on the discussion until you start talking about paying members...a term that would be inaccurate at that point, I imagine. Performers, etc. But members just doesn't sound right for a professional ensemble.
The Dallas Cowboys are "professional" and for-profit. The Texas Longhorns are neither.
The Marine Band is "professional" and non-profit. Just some examples to chew on.
Hi, Silver,
Yeah, fill in one issue and a load of others pop up...just like the potholes this time of the year.
Was reading your post and followed your logic all the way to the end, almost...
Sorry, but the Texas Longhorns (the university/team) are non-profit; the players are amateur (supposedly). And, as for the Marine Band - it's not a non-profit. It's "public sector," an arm of the government. The word "member" is pretty loaded in most instances and generally too vague: the member could pay, volunteer or be paid. But, you're right, there are two distinctions to be made: 1/ the organization: private, public or non-proit and 2/ the individual or member (see above).
SKY
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Please go back and read me again. I said making a general donation or a donation to a specific fund IS deductible. Making a donation to a scholarship fund, with no strings attached (in other words not directing it to x member) is the key. The key is a donation to a general fund to be used at the discretion of the corps, instead of a payment of funds. The IRS can be very picky about these things and they have a very specific set of circumstances where it can be deductible. They will go so far as to investigate if there was "a wink and a nod" going on when donated to a scholarship fund. No corps I know of will issue anyone a donation receipt for member dues, although a lot of people who sponsor someone don't understand this and use it as a charitable deduction.
Will they go to jail if caught? No, probably not, unless they pay $50,000 in scholarships and try to deduct it. That kind of money would be a huge red flag to the IRS for auditing. Other than that, your chances of being audited for a $100 donation to a corps are probably slim to none. However, I wouldn't risk it for the probably $25 return on my taxes.
I both donate to general funds and sponsor people. I only deduction the general funds donations.
Oh, and while we're at it, this may be a good time to remind people that travel to and from the corps for the purpose of donating your time and volunteering (cooking, sewing etc) IS tax deductible. Keep track of your mileage. It adds up fast. Also, if for some reason you have to stay at a hotel, this may also be tax deductible. I have specifically called the IRS about this and have been told this is possible. This does NOT mean if you go to DCI finals and spend 10 minutes on the serving line on Thursday lunch that you can deduct the whole finals trip. Please be very clear on that. This is for things like when I go spend a week with the corps at spring training and sew/fit uniforms.
Thanks for your reply, Bearz. I did misinterpret your initial post; My apologies!
On the subject of other deductions for volunteers, can you verify if the mileage deduction rate for volunteering differs (lower) from the normal business rate? Is it correct, too, that a volunteer may not deduct the value of his services, only the expenses of getting there to donate them (such as mileage and your example of lodging, in some cases)?
Thanks for your clarifications and helpful advice.
Steve
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Ballet for Martha not Ballad.
As in Martha Graham.
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This is so incredibly wrong. No corps that knows its business should be issuing a tax letter for a sponsorship. A donation to a general fund or a specific fund which benefits the corps as a whole is deductible. A sponsorship (paying a part of someone's dues) is not, under any circumstances deductible. The difference here is that someone is receiving something in return for the money. The member is receiving instruction, provided travel, fed, sheltered etc in return for that dues payment.
Its like buying a raffle ticket. You might write a check directly to an organization for a raffle ticket, but you cannot deduct the cost of that raffle ticket because you receive something in return for it. You receive a chance at winning x,y,z. If you buy a ticket to a show you receive the entertainment value of the show, the seat etc. These things are no more deductible than a sponsorship is.
And yes, I am an accountant.
Bearz,
I don't understand some of your reasoning here. Of course, paying all or part of someone else's dues would not qualify for a deduction for the donor, nor would the raffle ticket purchase. BUT, Peel is right in saying that making a donation to a corps' scholarship/sponsorship fund is a donation to the corps; the donor receives no direct benefit in return for his contribution. Deductibility applies only to the donor. That it benefits anyone else by, in your words, "receiving instruction, provided travel, fed, sheltered etc in return for that dues payment" is, indeed, the whole point of the donation and its deductibility.
Steve
ps: I'm not an accountant but I have slept at Holiday Inn and have hired accountant firms. :-)
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Good points all, Dave. I absolutely agree with you.
And to address some of the comments on corps' inability to compete for market share, advertising, etc:
Non-profits are "private" entities, not "public" (only government is public sector) even though much of their funding may come from public sources or from tax-deductible contributions.
They are, first and foremost, businesses...just as any for-profit in the business sector and must be run accordingly. This means that their marketing, sales and other business plans and strategies (mentioned in a few posts) need to be up to the level of competition of private enterprise or they'll go the way of many other corps and businesses --into extinction. Universities (someone gave the example of Harvard) and hospitals are clearly the leaders in the non-profit world in terms of financial and business acumen; success depends upon how well an organization fulfills its mission and, of course, how compelling or important that mission (or product) is to the broadest possible market.
Steve
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Sure, somebody could start a for-profit corps (a la World Gone Mad) but they couldn't participate in DCI or DCA. Both bodies' governing documents require 501©3 status for participation as competing corps. There is also a lot of confusion about terms; "non-profit" doesn't mean "doesn't make a profit," it means "doesn't exist for the purpose of making a profit." Likewise, "for profit" doesn't mean that it does make a profit or is therefore allowed to, it simply means that profit is the purpose of that business' existence. Considering what kind of a money hole even the best corps are, I don't see why anyone would possibly want to have a DCI touring corps set up as a for-profit business.
Dave,
I agree with your comments but would add that the basic tenet and distinction for a "not-for-profit" is that a "director" or "trustee" of the governing board may not profit from his or her involvement or participation. (They may, however, be reimbursed for their organization-related "expenses.) This refers, specifically and only, to the policy and governance level, the "Board" of the organization, but not to the employees, contractors, volunteer staff or performers (if someone chose to pay them).
And, from experience in the non-profit sector, the term / status does NOT mean that the organization cannot or should not make a profit. Indeed, if a corps is to survive, it had better end most years with a solid "profit-able" bottom line because I doubt that (m)any have endowments to help them through lean years.
Steve
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Hey, Jim.
Wow! Helluva job pulling all this old info together and sharing with us!
Some related random thoughts / memories:
The first show I saw was at Smalls' field in York probably a few years later than those you posted. I remember seeing Archie, Yankee Rebels, Reilly (did a jig to Irish Washerwoman), and Cabs who brought the house down with Cherry Pink. York did an exhibition and were good, but no longer at quite that competitive level. Great show and, oh yeah, I was only about minus-20 years old at the time!
Hanover Bears = Hanover Lancers (now a good all age non-competing corps). BTW, Jm, have you been to the second floor meeting room at the Legion? There are somef great old photos of the corps on the wall - and probably al lot more stuff stashed away somewhere up there.
Williamsport Black Eagles - John Dowlan taught drums for this corps, "discovered" John Bosworth there and invited him to join the USAF drum corps. Don't know anything more about them, though.
Kenwood Cavaliers - I've heard of this corps but don't know if they later became a junior corps. I wonder if they were connected to the Cheverely Cavaliers who, from what I've heard, were really a corps that was "supplemented?" by a whole gang USAF drum corps guys who would compete with them when they could.
A lot of the corps names were familiar to me but, more surprising was how many were not: Hamburg Legion; Central City (and now the city is gone, too!); Burlington Highlanders, Henry Houston Post; Imhoff (heard of them, but know nothing more); Bollman Post - Lebanon; Fost Post - Mckeesport; McKall Post; Westminster Patriots (possibly succeeded by the Starlighters Jr corps from the 60s?).
If anyone here has any info on any of these corps, I'd love to hear about them so please add any details here. Thanks!
And...thanks again, to you, Jim, for your work and for posting a great read.
Best,
Steve
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Yes, according to Jeff Cox of DCI, BD is at Hempfield. (Just north of Route 30 in Lancaster Co).
See post #20 in this thread for the full housing schedule.
Apparently Spirit still needs to find housing.
I'm sure Jeff and Spirit would most grateful if anyeone could locate a place somewhere near A-town.
See you at Allentown.
SKY
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Sorry; double post.
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Yes, according to Jeff Cox of DCI, BD is at Hempfield. (Just north of Route 30 in Lancaster Co).
See post #20 in this thread for the full housing schedule.
Apparently Spirit still needs to find housing.
I'm sure Jeff and Spirit would most grateful if anyeone could locate a place somewhere near A-town.
See you at Allentown.
SKY
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For several years, a gentleman named Bob who is a volunteer on the Allentown host committee distributed a listing of housing sites.
Having not seen one, I emailed him a few days ago. This arrived yesterday. (Bob, I hope you're OK with me posting this list and helping to get the word out.) So, thanks to Bob.....here's his list:
Here it is. Spirit still not housed.
Corps housing sites:
1.Santa Clara Vanguard
DHH Lengel MS Pottsville
2.Carolina Crown
Raub M.S. Allentown
3.The Cadets
Upper Darby HS Drexel Hill
4.Phantom Regiment
Hunterdon Central HS Flemington NJ
5.Boston Crusaders
Laurer MS Easton
6.Madison Scouts
North Schuylkill H.S. Ashland
7.Spirit
Site pending
8.Troopers
Schuylkill Haven H.S. Schuylkill Haven
9.Pacific Crest
Salisbury M.S. Allentown
10.Cavaliers
Penn State Schuylkill Schuylkill Haven
11. Colts
South M.S. - Perkasie
12. Glassmen
Pennridge North MS Perkasie
13. Blue Stars
Salisbury H.S. Allentown
14. Blue Devils
Hempfield HS Landisville
15. Bluecoats
Northern Lehigh HS Slatington
16. Blue Knights
Daniel Boone HS Birdsboro
17. Pioneer
Saint Clare School
18. Crossmen
Twin Valley H.S. Elverson
19. Mandarins
Freedom HS Bethlehem
20. The Academy
Pocono Mountain H.S.- Swiftwater
21. Beatrix
Allen H.S. Allentown
Best,
SKY
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And a few from the 60s from south of the Mason-Dixon Line:
St. James, Baltimore, MD
St. Mary's Lancers, Baltimore, MD
and OLPH VIPs, DC - (the initials corps; payback to Bill S of BS!)
SKY
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BobB and Uncle Z -
Do either of you know who taught St Lucy's drumline those years (of the cymbal rack)? Just curious because I remember that around 70 or 71 Reading Bucs also had a similar, though larger looking, contraption that we used to call the "talent rack." That line was taught by John Flowers. Any connection?
Thanks to whomever can come up with the answer.
Steve
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Anyone know where Ritchee went to public school? Overhead a conversation that would indicate a local connection but not sure if I heard it right.
If true then I know some folks who would like to hear this.
Hey, Jim,
You should know this -- Ritchee went to York (PA) High. His first corps was the York White Roses jr. corps; helped them win a few state championships. Another local drum corps drummer, Rod Meckley who once played with York (Sr.), Hanover Lancers and Garfield, is now the band director there.
SKY
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Good topic CB; that's a really nice piece. And, since this is a DCA & Alumni forum topic, I'll go with Truman Crawford's "Battle Hymn" done by the Yankee Rebels in...(don't remember which year/s).
Steve
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Though obviously inconvenient for many fans, the fact that tour routes and show schedules had probably been set for quite a while might also have been a major factor in selecting this near-by alternate site over the many other options proposed in this thread.
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There's been a parade followed by a field (parking lot) show in Havre deGrace since at least 1963. I remember that year the show included Blue Rock, St. Mary's Lancers, Dundalk Cadets, York White Roses, Westminster Starlighters and maybe another one or two. It was a fun challenge since the lot was only about 2/3 the width of a regular field. We'd march backfield and inch up to the edge until we could see fish! We always looked forward to that one and had bets on which bass drummer would get wet!
Best parade: In 1968 or 69 the King of Nepal visited the White House so all the military bands, units were ordered to form up at intersections along Constitution Ave. While waiting for the parade to start we noticed a motorcade approaching, got ordered to attention and, as the motorcade came to a stop in front of us, we played for them without taking a step. When we finished, they rolled along to the next unit a block away. It was great - a parade in reverse...and in the shade!
A 4th of July parade visual: Bowie Md., sunny, hot, humid, no shade, no breeze (you know the kinda day!). While waiting to step off we were checking out the talent and noticed this guy with a can of Schaeffers in his hand staring up at an American flag hanging limp from a pole in his front yard. After staring for a while he goes inside and brings out a chair, goes back in and comes out unrolling a long extension cord, goes in again and brings out a big old box fan. Yep!!!! You guessed it! He puts the fan on the chair and aims it at the flag - getting, maybe, a little ripple from it. We were entertained and got a nice chuckle or two, then just before we stepped off, we faced him and his setup, came to attention and gave him and his flag a salute and a tune. He and the neighbors loved it and it helped us make it through another long, hot parade.
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Deleted / double post. Sorry.
SKY
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Having been in a start-up corps in the early 60s I believe I can speak from experience. From August, 1965 on with the implementation of large scale draft (50,000 per month) I saw the draft/enlistment have a profound impact on my corps as it lost easily 1/3 to 1/2 of its most experienced players by 1969. It might not have been the only reason, but it was certainly a major contributor to the demise of our corps. Some of us were lucky and were able to join the ranks of one of the service corps but the competition for those few spots was heavy. When the lottery started, my number was 13! (Luckily I was already a staff sgt in a great job.) I believe this pretty accurately portrays the quick rise and fall that many corps experienced from the mid-to-late 60s into early 70s. Many other established corps were equally effected.
Yes, of course, drum corps survived but one only needs to look at the drum corps rep site to see the profound losses.
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Dennis and Jim, I remember having competed against the Mariners at Baynard (?) Stadium. They had a great show (beat us, but didn't win the show). I later met Brasale in DC when he was with the Marine D&BC and was also teaching OLPH VIPs Jr. Corps (along with Bill Semanek and Bob Neidrich). Great guy. RIP, John.
SKY
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Thanks, Superman,
Now that's a show I'm sorry to have missed.
Looks spectacular.
SKY
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Hey, Dan,
Thanks, again, for the extra info and, ...a bit late...for the phenomenal show in Ithaca (75?)
Best,
SKY
Would DCI allow a For-Profit corps?
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
So, Boxingfred, your uncle's name wouldn't happen to be JoJo, would it? Who were the instructors?
Wasn't your corps fully funded through the city rather than for profit? A unique situation, I think.
Did you ever hear of the VIPs? Royal Sabres? They were "a bit" before your time but both were quite good, too.
SKY