[THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED]

Ok, accepting your premise, lets utilize Little Baseball then as an example.

If a team was determined to be utilizing ineligible players Little League Baseball would make that team forfeit ALL that's seasons games too. They likewise would not care if it was brought to their late season attention that the coaches were apparently unaware of the use of ineligible players. It would only matter in the level of sanctions it might impose, or not impose, on the Coaches. But nevertheless, THE TEAM would be made to forfeit ALL their games, even if the ineligible players sat on the bench in uniform and they never played a single game all season. So in this case, the SCV would have been made to have forfeited the entire 1989 season's scores and placements as they broke the rules by utilizing ineligible players, albeit apparently unknowingly. My sense is that just about every other competitive youth endeavor out there would likewise vacate that team's entire season too, for the use of ineligible players in competition.

Then it's very lucky for Vanguard that they weren't playing little league baseball back in '89.

[THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED]

The fact that the Muchachos apparently were shown to be complicit in the illegality, while ( as far as we know )the SCV staff was unaware that 2 of their marching members were illegal and marched DCI illegally would not matter if this was the NCAA ...and most other youth copmpetitive organizations for that matter. There is the timely saying that " ignorance before the laws, rules and the circumstances is no excuse ". So while we naturally sympathize with the fact that SCV staff apparently were unaware that they were breaking the rules in 1989, the NCAA would have stripped them of ALL their scores, placements in 1989. Thats because knowingly or unknowingly, they utlized ineligible marchers throughout 98% of the 1989 season and heading into the Championships week they received the advantaged seeding that it is speculative at best they would have received had they not marched the two illegal marchers all season long. The NCAA certainly does not care if a Coach knows or does not know his players are illegal. The penalty is forfeiture of ALL competitive scores, placements, wins, etc in both circumstances, so to them, it is irrelevent as to whether or not those in charge knew of the breaking of the rules or not. Just sayin'

What does the NCAA have to do with DCI?

Anyways, seems to me that it's a good thing that DCI differs from the NCAA on this. The NCAA's broken compliance system is riddled with corruption, favoritism, arbitrary enforcement of rules, so on and so forth. DCI isn't perfect today and I'm sure it was far, far from perfect in the fourth year of its existence but it's a sight better than the NCAA in this regard.

[THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED]

There was quite a discussion back in 2007 on Sound Machine. Names are named, so parental discretion is advised.

I will not post the direct link here, but a search will reveal this page quite easily.

Thanks for directing me to that thread. I've never really followed that forum. The post from the Muchachos alum is far more useful than DeLucia's account (at least up until he goes into standard DCI-killed-my-corps conspiracy) and differs from it on a couple of key points. More useful than the account in the drum corps history book, too, and a decent complement to the Cavies/DCI viewpoint I've read on here and elsewhere.

Quick question: Was the Muchachos director's name spelled McAuliffe or MacAuliffe? I've seen it written both ways. Seems like his first name was John, but did he go by any other name. The murder thing sounds like another drum corps legend, and not a very well known one judging by the reactions in this thread. I've searched through some databases that include papers from northern New Jersey (which I'm assuming is where the supposed murder took place) and can't find any evidence of it, though that certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED]

While the OP is certainly interesting, I hope that one day someone from Muchacho's side of the story will be able to discuss openly and honestly without hiding names and sources, without making unfounded accusations, and without the victim complex. Guys from the other side of the story certainly seem to be to do this. As a neutral party with an intense interest in the history of drum corps it would be great to have trustworthy accounts from both sides of the incident.

[Would it be smart?]

Mergers used to be a common thing, back when corps were dying off left and right and casting about for ways to survive. Of course it was usually a preventative measure and not something you did after your corps went under. It only delayed the inevitable in most cases, though some of today's corps are the product of mergers.

Anyways, you'll never get a positive from adding negatives. You only bury yourself deeper in the hole. Likewise you won't get one good organization by adding two poorly run organizations together.

[Time for Rifles to Go?]

Except for the occasional high toss I probably wouldn't notice if weapons work disappeared entirely. I always found that the flags added the most to a show, far more than weapons or dancing which aren't always very effective from high in the stands. But what my guard friends tell me is that rifles are difficult to replace because an entire school of technique has developed around this particular piece of equipment so it is very difficult to find a workable replacement. I don't really think of the guard side of things as being very resistant to change, so it seems to me like factors other than tradition are working to keep the vaguely rifle-shaped block of wood in use.

Now I'm not a guard person at all so that could be wrong.

You can find funny - and not so funny - little traditions enduring in most any performance art. In ballet en pointe technique can be brutal on the body (just ask my sister) yet it's kept around mostly unchanged because, well . . . just because that's the way it's done. Drum corps is hardly unique in this regard.

[Time to Sell DCI]

LOS seats 62,000 in the football configuration.

One who side is completely unusable, reducing it to about 40,000.

The endzone sides are equally unusable, bringing it down further to about 28,000.

Cut out the space from endzone to 20 on each side and you're down to probably about 22,000 or so.

I actually think seats from the 20's wrapping around to the endzone sides should be free. Anyone who wants to show up, with emphasis on local families bringing kids.

This should be for all major shows... fill the place up... get people there... who cares if the seats aren't great if it is free for them? These people will likely end up buying something else anyway... and it gets people there that are just simply curious or thought it would be something cool to take their kids to.

Couple of years ago DCI offered free kids tickets and super cheap adult tickets to Indiana residents. Even though I loathe finals in LOS stadium that was almost enough to bring me in. I watched some warmups and went to a baseball game instead. The deal wasn't advertised at all (I found out from someone who works at DCI) and I'm pretty sure they no longer offer it.

Speaking of warmups I've always thought that finals weeks warmups should be made into more of an event. They already had lots of unintentional exposure when finals were in White River State Park . . . I'd like to see DCI move warmups back to the park, organize and advertise the whole thing as some sort of special event. Have a schedule, have people around to explain what's going on, hands-on demonstrations (letting kids bang on some drums, things like that). It surely would not cost much and would help DCI engage with the community. I'd also like to see a full corps play the SSB at Indians during finals week. That would surely garner some attention. The Saturday parade is great, though.

\off-topic

[Drum Corps Virtual]

I imagine the only fans that would fill out sheets would be officious nerds like myself. I also fill out score cards at baseball games. Maybe a straight up fan vote would be more engaging?

I really like the idea of including the international corps, and really, really like the student fan network subscription. There's a lot of talk about engaging "the kids" but little concrete action towards that goal. Can't imagine DCI bringing itself to do something like that.

[Carolina Crown]

How often have you seen them live? Have you seen them live at all? For me, Crown is all about the live experience. There are many corps whose shows I prefer to Crown - Vanguard, Phantom, BD, etc. - but getting pinned back by that magnificent wall of sound can't be beat, IMO. I say all this as a percussionist. And the arrangements are usually pretty satisfying too. Conceptually they've been a mess for a few years now, but like some earlier posters I couldn't give two s###s about concepts or themes. I just wanna be entertained, and Crown fulfills that need. If you're a visual person I guess I can see how you'd be a bit of a Crown skeptic. Even though I'm not a visual person I can't really say I've ever been wowed by a Crown drill, for instance. Last year's whiplash drill seemed like overcompensation. The body movement can be a bit excessive, and I think there are other corps who do that better. But for me these are all secondary concerns.

Anyways, I've been led to believe that hoards of Crown fans tear apart anyone who dares say anything negative about Crown on this board. Seems they haven't arrived yet . . .

[Carolina Crown 2013]

Geeze, why can't Crown threads ever take a joke? Wow, they're playing Latin-flavored music and I pointed out a corps that used to play nothing but. People can either ignore it, find it in good humor, or try to tear me down. It's obvious which way that went.

Now you're asking what the fans that complain about BD and DCI have to do with the corps? It reflects poorly on the corps! Haven't you met someone who hate the Red Sox/Yankees/Heat? Why would they hate a good team? Sometimes it's the members, but a lot of times it's the fans! Am I going to root for a corps when a fans tells me he didn't like a show/corps that I like or have a personal tie with when I never asked for their opinion? Not really.

Now I'm not asking for people to just let criticisms go un-flamed (this IS the Internet, after all), but just listen to different viewpoints. ESPECIALLY in the corps's catch-all topic. This isn't "Crown Appreciation 2013", it's just "Carolina Crown 2013". If I have a criticism, it's going here.

Anyway, I can go on, but calling out mannerisms of fans and members won't do any good. I'll just keep watching and cheering just like everyone else and commenting on what I like and don't like.

PS There are a couple other corps whose close supporters bashed DCI non-stop when they moved up to Div I and I still don't support that corps. Same with some Open Class corps now.

Ah, Internet Evasion Tactic #12: "It's just a joke! I'm joking! Why can't you guys take a joke?" Hint: Humor tinged with some kind of underlying bitterness, grudge, mean-spiritedness, etc. does not work. No one will take your obvious baiting with good humor. And again, it seems like you want everyone to take your barbs in stride while you're whining about being bashed. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. It's not that hard to point out what you like and don't like without being attacked.

As for the rest of the post: I'm a huge, huge sports fan. But I like to think that drum corps folks are above the childish tribalism that some sports fans indulge in. Guess that's not the case. It's not hard to separate a corps from that small, small, minuscule handful of fans who might have dared annoy you at some point in time.

[Carolina Crown 2013]

I'm a very critical person often on the side of harshness. Probably comes from all my years of drum corps. You'd have to look back on my posts to about 2006 (I think it was with this account) to find my reasoned arguments. Since then, my comments have fallen on deaf ears as I've watched Crown improve, yet not at the rate they should be. I want to see them win and it's frustrating to see them come up short on show design year after year while fans heap on praise for being this new and fresh corps when all they're doing is something that one or more corps did the previous year.

Well, the saying is "Don't dish it out if you can't take it." If you're going to be "harsh" then don't cry when it's thrown right back in your face. Most everyone on here has had extensive drum corps experience and seem to know the difference between open, honest, criticism and trollish jacka##ery. Let's look at a couple of examples.

Example 1: "I respect Crown and want them to win, but I wish they weren't so derivative. I think that may be holding them back."

Example 2: "I liked it better when Madison did it every year from around 1977 to today."

Which post is more likely to get a negative reaction? Which post is more useful to furthering discussion rather than picking a fight? Sure example 1 might have garnered some negative reactions, but it wouldn't have been as extreme. And so what if some Crown fans complain about BD all the time? What does that have to do with the corps? I find that many Scouts fans are prickly in the extreme when it comes to ANY slight to their corps, real or imagined, but I don't confuse them with the Scouts and don't let them stop from rooting for that corps.

[Do they do this?]

Do you remember any exmples of views that would be expresed on RAMD that are not voiced here?

Viewpoints, not views. On RAMD, for example, you often heard from the point of view of one of the wealthiest men in the world. We certainly don't have that on DCP as far as I know.

[Carolina Crown 2013]

TL;DR It's the fans I don't care for, not the corps.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous with this I'm-the-victim spiel. When it comes to criticism on DCP it's not what you say that causes an uproar but rather how you say it. I've been critical of Crown but didn't get piled on because I didn't intentionally word my posts in a way that would rile up fans. Crowns fans can be over the top but are generally okay. IMO they're nowhere close to being the most sensitive fanbase in DCI.

[Do they do this?]

In addition to some of the names already mentioned Jeff Fiedler has an account and will on occasion post something. Bob Jacobs (Jersey Surf) used to post pretty openly up until a couple of years ago.

Truth is that most everybody in this activity looks at it at least every once in a while. In my experience the more someone goes out of their way to exclaim how awful DCP is the more likely it is that person reads (and probably posts) on DCP. In all honesty DCP isn't that bad of a place as far as internet forums go. It's well moderated, discussions tend to be civil, and everyone's united by a singular passion for this activity.

But if you want to see really good, substantive, and open posts by the bigwigs on an internet forum you're going to have to look through the RAMD archives. Even though that place turned into a cesspit it also hosted viewpoints that you'll never find on DCP . . . people have become much more guarded since the Wild West days of the internet.

[On the subject of leaking.....]

It would be nice if people would respect the wishes of the corps, but that's just not going to happen in this day and age. Corps face a stark choice. They can be ahead of things and control the release of information and media. Or they could let others do it for them. That's any easy choice to make, IMO. Going into a black hole nine months out of the year is no longer possible nor desirable. But if you really want to keep secrets here's a few hints: If you don't anyone to know about your show, don't tell anyone. If you don't want anyone to see or hear your show material, don't perform it front of anyone.

I know that copyright frequently comes up in these discussions. Frankly, I've never heard of copyright being given as a reason for keeping information s00per sekrit either in corps or band. Designers and instructors are worried about unfinished products, works-in-progress, etc. hurting their image, or else they want things to be a "surprise". That's their right, of course, but it's a pretty untenable position in this day and age.

[G7 Update]

As usual on this board, we're too focused on assigning blame, not focused enough on solutions. The only reasonable solution has the seven represented by some factor on the board. Absent that, the best we can hope for is the uncomfortable, unsustainable status quo in which the two sides stand apart to the detriment of all.

My point is the seven has taken a step toward DCI. Now DCI must take a step toward the seven. Leadership is needed to break the impasse and start the process toward progress. From DCI's perspective the risk is five or even three seats on its board might be enough to recruit a majority and thus a change. That's the risk. But it's always been there, always will be there and inevitably must be taken. Or else we're already where we dare not be. And that's where blame is all we have left.

HH

Lest we forget, the G7 excluded themselves after the initial fiasco. As I recall the G7 at that time held four of the six "corps" seats on the board. The membership voted two of them out to make things more proportional . . . i.e. the G7 made up 1/3 of the total DCI membership at that time, so they should only hold 1/3 of the seats on the board. But after that the other G7 directors on the board resigned and haven't tried to regain their seats since that time. Maybe they wouldn't get elected if they did try, but I don't really know that for sure. Anyways my point is that the G7's exile is entirely self-imposed.

And I'm curious to know what step the G7 has made towards DCI? The ToC was a massive concession on the part of DCI, and the seven apparently couldn't agree on how to run these so DCI stepped in and saved the G7's baby at the last minute. Pretty magnanimous. In return the G7 have demanded that they be given a majority of seats on an unwieldy 12 member board, or else. Now both sides are at fault here, but the G7 is absolutely the most intransigent. That's pretty hard to deny.

I love these seven corps, support them, and will continue to support them whatever path they take. I've got a sister in one of them and have spent a lot of time volunteering with that corps. These are all great organizations that are mostly well run. But I'm afraid some of my fellow G7 fans are a bit obtuse or maybe contrarian and are refusing to see the truth that's standing in plain sight right in front of them. The bitterness, the pettiness, the acrimony, and the "have your cake and eat it too" attitude are all very, very disheartening. They have no solutions and have admitted as such, but still want to be in charge.

[G7 Update]

Good for G7 for making difficult decisions and doing what they feel is best for the resilience if the activity.

You can't say nothing needs to be done when you don't have a Glassmen or Teal sound on the field in 2013... they are atleast doing something about it.

Carry on!

What is they're doing other than saying "We don't know what to do . . . but you should let us be in charge anyways."?

[G7 Update]

Honestly, I have no problem granting them what they request. The top placing corps should have the biggest voice in the activity. And if you want to gain a voice, it's pretty simple...get better.

The problem I see with that is that many of the best minds in the business for off-the-field type stuff are at corps outside the top 12. Groups like Jersey Surf and Pacific Crest probably offer a better glimpse of the future of drum corps in terms of touring, etc. than some of the top-placing organization. It would be a shame to silence those voices.

[G7 Update]

Never really minded the seven going off to do their own thing. More power to them. What I hate are the attempts to co-opt DCI to suit their own purposes, which is what this proposed reorganization of the board is. Very convenient that a groups of seven corps wants a twelve member board. I'm not sure they'll get it, which may give them reason enough to leave. And that may be the whole point behind this.

Ideally I'd like to see a board completely independent of the corps . . . not gonna happen though.

[Dear George: Please stop.]

Some of you are acting like the OP accused YEA of murdering puppies. It's both funny and a little sad. Calm down. Unclench your fists, wipe the spittle off your monitor, and disconnect your internet for a few hours. Realize that the OP is a half-serious wind-up gently poking fun at what is, frankly, a completely inept fundraising gimmick and not a vicious, slanderous assault on a helpless drum corps.

[Dear George: Please stop.]

The amusing thing -- well one of the amusing things -- about this thread is that the OP hasn't really participated at all.

Perhaps...

it's time for this thread to die

I say keep it alive. The amount of butthurt generated by the OP is hysterical. Good job!

Anyways, in fundraising sometimes necessary to take the blitzkrieg approach. But doing it 365 days a year is counterproductive. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

[Will The G7 Split From DCI?]

You won't find a piece of paper that says the G7 was planning to split. The idea comes from two parts of the proposal. First, the idea that the G7 would host a series of shows independently of DCI while still participating in the DCI tour. Second, that the corps would take over certain tasks formerly tasked to DCI (Crown and ticket sales, for example). The idea that the G7 wanted to trial run an independent tour while still remaining within DCI is implicit. As in almost everything else in life you have to read between the lines unless you actually enjoy being spoon fed bull####.

There was some verbal discussion, or rather verbal threatening (bet you can't guess from who!) of a split. But it's not a serious possibility. These corps still need DCI as much as DCI needs them. The idea of a "split" and most of the wackier parts of the G7 proposal all come from one source who went a little overboard when he was asked to come up with a simple presentation.

[Who could pull of a VERY dark show?]

I've always found these so-called "dark" shows, including the ones mentioned in the OP, to be incredibly silly and corny. Not something I'd want to see a drum corps doing. Teenagers sure do seem to love it though.

"Dark" to me would be a show like BK 2006, which involved little pretension and almost no over-the-top writhing around on the field.

[More Licensing Issues]

We're not (at least I'm not) talking about arranging compositions without permission. That's not fair use. The Scouts should have procured all the proper permissions for Empire State. I'm talking about a few seconds of audio (only audio!) from a Charlie Brown video. No one will be suing DCI over a clip like that because: 1) they'll never notice; 2) they probably won't care; and 3) they'll recognize that their chances of prevailing in court against some poor marching band thing aren't worth the trouble.

HH

1. "They" could easily notice. Organizations like BMI and ASCAP have people who do nothing but look for violations. And you'd be surprised at how little it takes for them to threaten legal action. Maybe the rights holders to these clips don't work like that, but DCI can't really afford to take that risk.

2. "They" most certainly will care. What makes you think they won't? Copyrighted material needs to be protected, even against "minor" infringements.

3. "Their" chances of success would be somewhere around 100%. For the most part "they" are substantial entities with small armies of lawyers at their disposal. Trouble and cost don't really enter into the equation. Now is legal action likely to occur? Certainly not. C&D is as far as things would go in most cases. But DCI can't afford to take that risk . . . one incident with an aggressive copyright holder could be catastrophic.

It's really, really, really easy to sit at your computer and urge DCI to go tilting at windmills. Fortunately DCI is being a bit more sensible.

[Hurricane Sandy; Next to 0 Mentioned DCP, DCI]

So...as a community (drum corps) I was really hoping to see a lot more (Outreach) on DCI and DCP regarding hurricane Sandy. You would think that drum corps fans from everywhere would be a lot more concerned about the birthplace of drum corps (ny, nj and ct areas).

It was the worst storm in New Jersey history and has left the NJ Shore a near complete disaster area that will never be the same again.

Well, instead of b####### you could have, y'know, discussed the storm and perhaps offered some suggestions on ways DCI and corps can help out. Another option would have been to look a mere six threads down on the first page to find the thread about Hurricane Sandy and the outreach efforts of a DCI member corps.

I'm sure will see more in the way of outreach once immediate recovery efforts are over. Several drum corps have stepped up to help out bands affected by natural disasters in recent years. I don't doubt the same will happen here as well.