vferrera
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Posts posted by vferrera
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Any judge that would do that shouldn't be judging in the first place.
Ideally, no, but bias is very hard to eliminate. I don't consider myself racist, sexist, or elitist, but I look at my friends and they are all a lot like me :)
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BD, SCV, Bluecoats, Phantom, Crown, etc. all are able to put the best 150 performers on the field, period. If the best 150 auditionees were guys, guess what, they'd be all male too, but they're not. (exceptions made for CG for gender roll quotas, etc- Cadets male rifle line in 2002, for example)
Not quite true. Every corps has a limited pool to select from. Of those who are offered spots, many end up not marching for various reasons. And auditions are not a perfect indicator of how someone will perform on the field.
The biggest impact is in guard, which appeals mainly to women. But a male guard is a completely different thing than a female or co-ed guard. That can be an advantage.
In brass and percussion, what is the typical gender ratio? Not 50/50 that's for sure. Maybe in the pit. Overall, I don't think Cavaliers or Scouts are taking that much of a hit in the talent department.
I think perception is a bigger issue. Some judges might view an all-male corps a bit differently or set some of their expectations a little higher.
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Ummm...the whole Cavaliers being a fraternal organization thing that I mentioned?
the argument is that some people simply prefer to belong to same-sex groups for certain activities. It's a valid preference and there is no reason not to allow it. Some people might not feel comfortable traveling in close quarters with members of the opposite sex for 8 weeks. Given the age of the participants, it seems perfectly reasonable.
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Good point, and brings up an interesting thought. Given they've allowed one woman in the corps, does the argument of discrimination become more valid as one could point to that as an inconsistency in their policy? No real opinion on the matter either way, just a thought.
This comes up every year. Legally, any corps can set up purely arbitrary membership requirements. They could require that all members have six fingers on their left hand if they wanted to. They can change these requirements at any time. If someone wanted to challenge this, there would be a number of legal hurdles. They would have to establish standing to bring suit, that they suffered a real injury as a result of the policy, and so forth. If successful, the best a plaintiff could do is win the right to audition. The corps could then exclude her based on merit and there would be very little recourse. The legal expenses would run into tens of thousands (unless some lawyer accepted the case pro bono.) The corps could bring a countersuit for frivolous litigation. It just wouldn't be worth it.
Bottom line: there is no law that says you get to march drum corps. There is certainly no law that says you have a right to march a particular drum corps. There are laws that protect private groups right to exclusive membership. "Freedom of association."
BTW, there have been many All-Girl corps in the past. Also, All-African-American drum corps. CMCC Warriors. I know for a fact that the Cavaliers did not have an African-American member until the mid to late 60s. Imagine an All-White corps. Or a corps that excluded homosexuals. That might get some lawyers juices going.
Regarding the "guest performer" I'm a Madison alum and I think she was awesome and definitely earned the right to call herself a Madison Scout.
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To the OP - for a member, the value of drum corps is the experience of working together with a group of your peers to achieve a common goal. If you get in with the right corps, it's an unbelievable experience. You'll have an incredible time and make friends for life. Everything that happens outside of that group is just noise. It shouldn't affect the member experience at all.
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84 Brass-
new t-shirt "84 horns: your argument is invalid"
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My parents made me wait until I was 15. I never forgave them.
You should have made up your mind before you let him audition. To take it away from him now is just plain nasty.
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what if they did a giant gate during great gate of kiev? That would totally work for me.
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4 of 10 titles in even years 84, 90, 98, 2000 so there's that then.
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just to clarify, by consistency, I'm not talking about placements. I'm talking about consistency in how each judge interprets the criteria.
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Too many judges on the field at one time = More clutter than a BD show.
The conference before semis to "make things more consistent" is like a yellow slip of paper telling judges how to score finals.
There was no problem championship week with wildly inconsistent judging.
You can't make judging of an art form this precise. A little independence in judgment is a good thing.
The clutter issue is legit.
Nothing in my proposal would prevent any judge from exercise independent judgment.
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I noticed that DCI uses non-overlapping judging panels for quarters, semis and finals. So, for 3 shows, they use a total of 30 judges. Each judge works one show. Given that larger judging panels will generally give more consistent scores, why not use all 30 judges for all 3 shows?
Also, I would suggest that the judges have a conference on Fri and Sat morning to discuss the previous nights performances and scores relative to the judging criteria.
I think that the result of these 2 changes is that there would be more consistency and accuracy in the scores for semis and finals. In other words, I think the scores would better reflect the consensus in the judging community relative to the criteria on the sheets.
I think that you would see considerable change in placements from quarters to semis, but little change from semis to finals.
The net result of this would be to take variability in the composition of the judging panel out of the equation.
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My understanding is that Bonfiglio and the East Cost corps directors were not the prime movers in the formation of DCI. DCI was the brainchild of Don Warren and Jim Jones of the Troopers. In 1971, Troopers, SCV, Cavaliers, Madison and Blue Stars formed the "Combine West" which was the precursor to DCI. There is a great article on it here:
http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=751b793a-089c-4619-b92b-6109c1e5f559
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'71 Cavaliers and Madison were the harbingers of more theatrical shows. And the offseason aftermath led directly to the formation of DCI.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Cadets intentionally ruined that baritone, I thought it was already wrecked
that's right - it was a Jupiter.
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Are you Joe Bob Briggs? You sound like Joe Bob Briggs.
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Another year, another "Leave BD Alone" thread. Hate or not, people have been questioning BD's visual scores for 20 or 30 years now. Clean? yes. Exciting? No. Difficult? Maybe.
Nobody questions Cadets or Cavaliers visual scores. Their innovations are legendary. The Z-pull. The diamond cutter. The snake. The acknowledged leaders in visual design for 3 decades.
IMO, BD's drill is fine. Certainly no worse than Crown, Phantom, Madison, Troopers....and it's clean to boot. Individually, they look fantastic. Clean wins.
Not hatin' just sayin'
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BAC: $17,980,
Madison: $9,186.
Come on, people. Madison needs the money to buy sleeves.
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Great corps, great show... just too #### easy. I would imagine this is intentional.
Look back on the history of the corps of Madison's current staff and their approach to building programs.
They stepped into Madison as essentially a turn around. It should not be unreasonable to expect that this team may take a similar approach to rebuilding the Madison program as they had in building Star.
They are playing the long game... attract younger, but dedicated kids that you can get to stick around for awhile. Give them a program that is entertaining and achievable, that they can execute the hell out of (reach too far too fast, push them too hard, they burn out... you're back to square one). Next season ratchet up demand to continue to climb... lather, rinse, repeat.
Again, they're playing the long game... it's ok that their show is easy now... this won't be the case for long.
absolutely. Their first priority was to win back the fans and re-establish the brand (and get back into finals). Then build back the technique and talent level. They've accomplished all this and more. As this process unfolds, I think they'll start taking more creative risks and push into the top 6.
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(note: I've only met and spoken with debbie once)
In the conversation I had with Debbie, she pretty much talked about "height" and "projection to the audience and box" the ENTIRE TIME. Perhaps Debbie doesn't believe that the Cavaliers Technique is capable of those two things.
You have to admit, it makes them look short, very short. And as far as "projection" and "height" corps like BD/PR(because of the white unis)/Cadets appear much taller and more projected towards the audience, than Cavaliers. I think it works in the Cavaliers context, before you green machiners get out the flame throwers.
The true test, I think will be next year when SCV is a little more competative. If Debbie starts scoring them low as well, we'll be able to see if it is correllated like I think.
She was judging design, not proficiency. Have a look at the new captions.
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Keep in mind that Houston was a TOC event with the new sheets. These are the new criteria:
1. Visual GE: How similar are the corps props to those used by the Blue Devils?
2. Music GE: How similar are the corps arrangements to those played by the Blue Devils?
3. Visual Performance: How similar is the corps marching style to the Blue Devils?
4. Music Performance: How much does the corps sound like the Blue Devils?
5. Guard: Do the guard costumes look like something the Blue Devils would wear?
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Chrome bugles are ruining drum corps. Everytime I hear one, I have to cover my ears the sound is so crass and unmusical.
then stop playing.
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Compared to BAC, most of the spreads were in performance/achievement subcaptions, not content/rep/vocab
Compared to Broken Arrow, madison was way down in music GE (-1.2) and ensemble music (-1.5). Missing a bunch of percussionists will do that.
It's a bit disappointing. Early on, it seemed like Madison might challenge for top 5. Then it looked like they'd be in the hunt for 7th with SCV. Now it looks like they are battling with BAC and BK for the 8, 9, 10 spots. And they still have to watch out for Blue Stars.
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I'm not sure where this is going to end up, but I feel the need to post it anyway...
The old lady and I drove up from Chicago to Minneapolis on Friday. I'm a die-hard BD alum, and she's a hardcore "Phan," who'd never heard of drum corps until she met me a couple of years ago. She was first exposed to her beloved Regiment in a theater when they won with "Spartacus," but was denied seeing them for the first time live last July when Minneapolis was rained out. She was also denied the chance to see my sacred Blue Devils that year, but that really isn't important here.
What is important was that we finally made it up there for the second year, and mutually decided to make the short drive up to Osseo HS to check out the Scouts, based largely upon my recommendation of a piece of music we'd only heard on another site.
We got there midway during a run-through, and rushed up into the stands just in time to see and hear them do their closer.
Moments later, yours truly was crying like a baby. I was sobbing uncontrollably. Really, it was ridiculous. You'd think I was watching Titanic for the first time when Rose says goodbye to Jack and lets him sink, or was saying goodbye to the puppy my family had when I was a kid that had become ill and needed to be put down, or when Scout finally meets Boo Radley in Jem's bedroom and Atticus says "Miss Jean Louise Finch, may I introduce Mr. Arthur Radley." It was almost 100 degrees, and I was weeping like a child, and loving every tear.
It was gorgeous. It was moving. It was Ice Castles or Brian's Song, with a far more evolved horn line.
It was enough to make my Blue Devil-tattooed keister go to Madison's souvie trailer and drop almost $100.
It may not be the best closer ever fielded, but it was the first one to move me to tears in almost 30 years (the last one being Ice Castles, which should tell us something).
Make of that what you will.
This is one of the most awesome things I've read on this site. I hope someone from the Scout Organization prints it out and tapes a copy to the door of the equipment truck so the guys can read it when they're getting their stuff.
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Cavaliers and Madison Scouts
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
Well, we're constantly told all our lives that we can be whatever we dream of. Live without limits etc, etc. I agree with the general principal that access should be based on merit, not chromosomes. But you have to balance that against the rights of others to associate with whomever they want (or don't want).