coloradocorp
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Posts posted by coloradocorp
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<video link removed>
Check for yourself...I think they did - 1 heck of a job, and should not of been battered by a few judges. No excuse!
I just finished watching. DCE has come a long way IMHO if KS is any indication. A wonderful show. I then re-perused the RECAP sheet - half their margin out of first and 2 points or so out of 4th was percussion and given the video had decent - not great - sound - I do not think their percussion book was better than what they got and as for execution - there were a number of muddy parts though overall they surprised me a lot.
As for drill - some issues esp intervals which hurt the effect. I'm sure they will clean it up a LOT before this weekend - there had to be jitters as well as lots of excitement flowing in their first performance. They have two shows to show DCA what they can really do. Brass line was indeed superb..some really great licks. Go KS.
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1. Bucs- 98.275
2. MBI-96.9
3. Empire Statesmen- 96.575
4. Hurricanes- 94.2
5. Alliance- 94.00
6. Caballeros- 92.775
7. Kidsgrove Scouts- 91.1
8. Bushwackers- 89.7
9. Renegades- 87.6
10. Corpsvets- 85.225
The crowd will be astonished at the spread and cry o DCP later about the judges. Then it will all have been revealed for what it was: a play to make the competitive
aspect feel closer than it actually was.
In any case, the shows are great, and it becomes on of the best overall DCA fields in decades.
For those who focus on the shows themselves, a real treat!
For all else, conspiracy theories, and all of the usual stuff we see here everyday.
PS
I miss the Brigs
Seems the judges take a beating every year since the drum corp activity began - they are rarely, if ever right in some views. The conspiracy theories abound - absurd. As a former HS/College basketball official - I've heard many 'kill da bum' calls from the stands - part of the turf if you judge anything. These guys will do their best to be fair, accurate in accordance with the rules in place - though we all know subjective calls can be perhaps too much of personal preference and not a universal call. NO - the judges won't consult the DCA Board to ask how they want the results to come out as some infer.
All the corps will try to hit a season high with their performances. As to whether this will be one of the best overall DCA fields in decades - we all have our preferences. For me - the days when Sky, Brigs, Cru were still competing at their peaks along with more solid versions of Cabs and Renegades for example - those IMHO were the best fields ever for DCA.
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10. Kilties
9.Bush
8. Renegades
7. Kidsgrove Scouts
6. Alliance
5. Caballeros
4. Ct. Hurricanes
3. Minnesota Brass
2. Empire
1. Bucs
Top 3 will be separated by under .7
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A hot discussion indeed. Seems everyone contends that KS did a heck of a show in BGPT - wonderful to hear the overall quality in DCE has risen so very well. As to the inferences that the show was underscored because they were 'newbies' - just an absurd contention. My take on the recap sheet was that KS was down in just about every caption to the tune of 10 points out of 1st. If this was a 'planned' event and outcome - every judge on the field would have had to be in on it - get real ! There has always been and there always will be issues over results, but what may or may not have happened 35 years ago or whenever is irrelevant to the today. Many (most ?) of us who have been around for quite a few years, have seen or been on the short end of some 'challenged' judging outcomes in our opinions. Who knows - we know there have been some dirty stuff at times - it happens in any endeavor. A longtime friend and former judge for over 25 years was at DCI Finals - he said that if you went purely by audience fav - Madison Scouts might well have had a great shot at a much higher placement than they got. Never been a DC judge, but officiated basketball at the HS and College level for over 30 years - I know what booing is about - you can't please everyone in the stands.
Right or wrong - can anyone see a judging panel this weekend jumping KS 6-10+ points as some contend they should have gotten ? Not gonna happen.
KS will put on another wonderful performance and receive well deserved accolades this weekend. All the corps will be giving it all they got - it will be a true competition.
For those who are contending that DCA 'fixes' the results - you need a rest indeed.
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Everyone that I have ever spoken with that has "marched" in the DCI top twelve has the competition aspect near the top of the list as to why they engaged in the activity. Maybe not the "win or else mentality", but the idea that we as a corps can start the season in ninth and finish the season in fourth, or start the season in fourth and maybe win the gold was, and is, a motivator to do one's best at all times. This aspect, and judging system, is very close to the reasons behind the excellence in the world of Olympic Figure Skating. And it is the competition that brings the same ticket buyers back year after year. The problem comes in when there is a big disconnect in between the judging community and the audience, or when the perceived pre determined slotting that you refer to comes into the picture.
Blast, Blue Man, and Stomp, on the other hand, work on the level of showmanship because of the uniqueness of their performance ideas in the world of Broadway type entertainment. One group, two hours of entertainment, and a unique show design from each unit. Most people that I know in the industry agree that if there were twenty or more of these type groups performing back to back in a Broadway setting, the show would fold in it's first week of running. Also, very few people purchase tickets year after year after year to see these groups over and over and over.
Here is the deal (imo): Since there is a direct parallel in the judging system between Olympic Figure Skating and DCI, there would also be a parallel in the non competitive world of entertainment. In ice skating, an Olympic Gold Medal winner captures the attention of the whole world; for a brief moment in time that person is deemed the best of the best. Then what happens? That person either become and instructor or advocate for a new youth to reach those same Olympic heights, or they put on a purple costume and perform with "Barney on Ice". So, let DCI be the Olympic aspect, and the G7, or some configuration thereof, become the "Sponge Bob's on Ice". Then, let us see who is drawing in the repeat ticket buyers ten years from now, and see who the best musical youth in the world are auditiong for.
Well stated and I agree totally that your analogy of Ice Skating Judging panels vis a vis DCI judging is point on.
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Just saw the Recap sheet - certainly does not match the very positive comments from many very knowledgeable folks on this thread who were at the show - by a mile for sure and it wasn't just in percussion - KS were behind everyone by chunks across the board. Most of the judging panel were very DCA experienced so it makes ya wonder why such a major spread in assessment between fans and judges. Several of these guys will be judging in Roch next weekend so it makes one wonder - will KS pick up - hard to phantom that any panel composition would jump them 10-12 points or whatever in one week to be more competitive with the top 5 or so corps. Who knows !
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In the MLB World series, the NFL Super Bowl, NHL Stanley Cup, etc... the final champion outcome is competely "objective"; nobody can predict the champion three to five weeks in advance, nor during the final championship game itself, and that is what makes the MLB, NFL, NHL, championships so exciting compaired to games earlier in the season. However, in the world of DCI, the championship outcome is purely "subjective"; people pretty well know who will be in the WC top 12 by San Antonio, and will know who will most likely win DCI Finals by Allentown (I concede that 1988 and 2008 are exceptions). Moreover, unless a person is a very keen observer of the subtle aspects of the DCI show designs, there is not that much difference in the top 12 shows that they will see in San Antonio compared to the Indy shows that they will see a few weeks later at Finals.
Stu
Don't disagree with your observation that this is one possible driver for lower attendance, but on the flip side - why call these competitions if the outcome is - for the most part - already decided ? Perhaps indeed the behind the scenes DCI objective is to move the activity - or at least the infamous G7 or whatever - to a purely 'show' model similar to Blast and do away with competition eventually ? Competition and the ability for say a corp sitting in 5th for a period of time to take it all is something some ( or many ) might prefer. Maybe the drop in attendance at a number of shows is that fans generally prefer 'competition' and will go to see a show fewer times given the outcomes are pretty well decided towards the end of a season - with a few exceptions of course. DCI hates to hear the term - slotting - but its so obvious. Once a show gets its blessing from the judges and given an ordinal value and as execution improves/hits its ability level - game over.
Some prefer no surprises - but for me - upsets or surprises add to the enjoyment. The dinosaur 'tic' system had its issues in consistency of judging etc, . but at least it had that air of 'on any given night a corp could pull off a higher placing or a win even if they had been mired in 3rd or whatever during a season.
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A major reason for going to the World Championships is you know junior drum corps isn't going to get any better than that. Why go to the World Series if you've seen both teams in cross-league play earlier, or any major sports event where both teams had met before? The World Championships is the ultimate in junior drum corps.
I'm guessing at least a few people from the Minneapolis area made the trek down to Indy to see the corps that got rained out.
Are you serious Boo ? You think fewer people would go to the WS if the teams met before during the season ? Obviously you don't follow sports ! People go for the competition - period.
As to the interest in knowing attendance - there is a negative trend of fewer corps and lower attendance that should be a concern to anyone in DCI. Were yo\u aware that some sponsor contracts with DCI are predicated on attendance totals - thus the reason DCI is not wide open with attendance figures.
DCI corps have reached a pinnacle of excellence in terms of execution - just astounding in many cases - yet as corps get better, attendance drops ? Something is amiss and it goes beyond G7 etc.
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Yes, the Bridgemen were pretty controversial to many, and what really peeved me was that people didn't look past the zaniness and see that underpinning the whole package was a marvelous visual package, great hork and drum books crafted by gentlemen regarded as legends now that were performed at a very high quality. If you'd have stuck them in a traditional uniform, took out the nutty stuff, then had them perform in front of the detractors without telling them who they were, they'd have bought the show wholesale. The substance was clearly there underneath the whole thing.
I've seen HS groups attempt to mimic the Bridgemen over the years and they have NO clue that what lies underneath has to be superb, and they think their success was attributable to nothing more than the dancing lions, the crazy unis, Gene, Gene, the Dancing Machine, a fake judge, and a fluffy yellow duck for an assistant DM. Talk about a shallow understanding of the activity and of the Bridgemen, and that's usually what I got out of the Bayonne detractors in period.
Sometimes to apprecuate a corps, you have to cut away the layers and get to the substance.
Amen - point on. They played to the audience on the surface, but it was indeed built on rock solid music and drill books which were performed so very well. The 'circus' show was just one which when you look back - was a precursor to an evolution of the shows - so many corps added on over the years whether it be Phantom with the stunning Spartacus package or the phenomenal Phantom of the Opera staged by SCV. BD show this season - while I certainly prefer their great jazz book years - was so broadway with a performance execution that was just superb.
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And continuing that honesty, the old recordings I have heard and some of the old old videos I've seen haven't jumped to make me think the words "good" or "cool" or "I'd have wanted to do that". That's the truth. I realize you guys love what you did. I get that. I just see it as not my cup of tea.
Absolutely - we all like what we like - if we all liked exactly the same - life would be ultra bland would it not. Hey - there were some back when who objected to the stuff Bridgemen would pull on the field - they broke the mold. I loved it. Many forget that the evolution of the activity to what we now see just didn't happen - poof. It is the culmination of many decades of progress and those who came before.
Hey - I flew in the Air Force and when I talk with current pilots - they think I'm nuts for saying I prefer the old fly by the seat of your pants versus relying a lot on today's onboard advanced instrumentation. Performance of today's aircraft is certainly a step up - but flying is/was still a thrill then and now - yet the pilots of today still have respect for the skills we older pilots had back then and vice versa. No different with corps.
With that - going on vacation to the Jersey Shore tomorrow.
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I love it when colorado and don write "get off my lawn" posts. For the record, I love that you guys think I'm so young. Gives me a warm fuzzy :)
Kam
Hey we're all young' LOL..or so I wish at times.
Sorry if you took the posts to be "get off my lawn" which was not the intent. Maybe I came across wrong - if so - my apologies. I have seen far too many showing no respect for the greatness that preceded them. I respect corps from the then and the now though I will say that I prefer the entertainment package from the then.
The activity is challenged today both at DCA and DCI for a variety of reasons. Hopefully it will continue to sustain itself.
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DCA Finals... several years, several corps.
The top corps from pretty much any DCA Championship were wonderful back in the day.... heck, that top five in 1972 is still easily one of the best top fives ever, if not THE best, in DCA history....... but to be honest, there were some, shall we say, less-than-spectacular corps in those lower-echelon finalist spots, any number of years.
I think the quality of the lower-placing corps, overall, is much better today than back in our day.
Agreed Fran - the years 1968-1974 were mostly a blur for me - too busy flying jets for the Air Force during which I had no news on DCA stuff though I did catch a few Jr shows when home on leave.
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Don if so many corps were great back in the day, why did corps get 50's at finals? Loud is not always good and a look at the historic scores bear that out. Also yes you had great lines back then, but you had some bad ones too. Sure with time, everything looks better, but that's not reality. You may want it to be, and you can try and argue it all you want, but it won't be truthful.
Signed, a guy whose dad told him his BITD line sucked and he's not colored by time to forget thay
Jeff - I don't think anyone is saying every corp or many corps from back then were 'great', but remember - there were hundreds of corps and not 4 dozen or so like today. In my 50+ years in the activity, I never recall corps getting 50's in the finals of any major competitions -prelims perhaps. Maybe you were referring to Pennsylvania States or whatever ? For the instrumentation of the time and the skill sets of the corps - there were a number of super corps which entertained the crowds. Todays corps have the luxury of greatly improved instrumentation plus the guys/girls in the lines are what - 90% music major or true musicians at least. No one is saying all the corps from back when are better or even the equal of today's corps BUT the issue at hand i- and you appear to support that position which is fine as an opinion - that the corps were not as good as we thought from back then. Hey a BD, Phantom etc. etc. would be scoring some great marks if they were playing in some time warp back to 1970 for instance - who said they wouldn't. These guys are so phenomenal.
One last comment to inject. The kids in the corps today are vastly superior overall in terms of musical expertise and schooling, but they also have some great instrumentation to go along with it. My golf game today is better than it was 35 years ago in every phase and I'm 68 years old - why - the equipment (clubs and balls ) have improved dramatically and I drive further , I've gone to a number of schools to hone my skills however meager they might be etc. plus in retirement I play more AND I get lots of time at the driving range. My scores are better, but they should be given all the factors. No different with drum corps.
All in all - as I said earlier - if one thinks a Manning or whomever is a far better QB than say a Montana from 20+ years ago - fine - we all have an opinion, but saying Montana was 'crap' and he only looked better with the passage of time he was retired - that really is off base IMHO.
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Bigger than a breadbox.
Come on Fran - the King of Announcers should be good at this.
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not paid
???? - Jeff - plz clarify ... just looking for a guesstimate - a beer rests on the outcome.
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you have no idea what your talking about. have you ever heard a recording from back then? the corps from that era didn't have tears in the show. and man were they clean. especialy the drumlines AND we played rudiments. let's not forget the fact that we practiced at least 2 nights a week plus the show day and did 12 -22 shows a year. c'mon. you yougsters have no respect what so ever. before you speak listen to the recordings and then think about it. you may not like the style but it ain't "crappy"
Amen...
The percussion lines today get some great licks in and the stick work is superb - but I fully agree the rudiments based lines from back when were not chop meat - to the contrary. There were many great lines - my personal preferences ran into the books written by Bobby Thompson, Jack Pratt and Colin Campbell. Jack's penchant for swiss army rudiments was memorable - honed of course during his many years with the West Point Army Band.
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You don't have to be "enlightened" to like something you inherently don't.
You also can have knowledge of the activity in the past and still not like to listen to it.
To you it might be wonderful, to others it is a bunch of crap. Same as anything else.
He gave his opinion. You returned with childish insults. Seems that you too have a lot of growing up to do sir.
Come on LegalEagle - I didn't say anything about his having to listen to music from the 60's and 70s. My point is purely that the classic style corps were not 'crappy' and if he is a musician who has heard some of the greats from that era - he knows they weren't half bad. we all have opinions, absolutely. This guy says he marched with Reading - fine - they had some wonderful corps from decades ago. I personally do not embrace the current style, but I don't call it crap because it isn't and in terms of performance execution - the brass lines are superb and superior to what we had for sure - they should be given the types of guys they have in the lines. . My point was that we all indeed have our preferences - kinda like the argument that since I personally think Joe Montana is the greatest QB ever - others who might say a more current QB like Manning is the best - fine - but an opinion that Montana was 'crappy'. - well give it a rest.
Reality - the old and the new need to continue to perpetuate the activity - appreciate where it was and where it has gone - that's my point.
BTW - are you in the legal biz - I am a retired criminal and corporate attorney and yes I'm crankier with age for sure. Peace.
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Well, if you want to read my quote in that way, I'd say loud and quality don't always go hand in hand. For example, the 60's and 70's might have been loud, but it also sounded crappy.
Sorry Kamaraq, but that was a very silly comment and shows you have zero respect and absolutely no knowledge of the activity of the past. Please take some time to listen to some decent recordings. To say that corps of the 60s'and 70's sounded 'crappy' - stunning. You have a right to your opinion - though I would guess you are in the overall major minority. Your youth is showing..don't worry .. you will grow up and become enlightened at some point
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Well, you don't really know that do you? It's quite possible...even probable...that Reading's scores did indeed reflect those "issues". If those issues weren't there the spreads might be even bigger, especially when you factor in derived achievement.
I haven't seen any east-coast DCA corps this year, but I will next weekend. I'll do a review.
Possibly so. My point - last season I saw Cavies for example - 2 consecutive shows within a few days. First show was fine about 50% of the way into the season. Next performance was one of those nights where things go bad - brass line was noticeably off and they had 2 guys go down YET their score went up by 1.35 - why - when you looked at the ordinals from the shows in between as well as the scores - the off night was in line with the overall score progressions across the country. Just odd is all.
As to your quote - if its too loud you are too old - it should be more like - if its too loud you must be listening to a recording from the 60's or 70s when things were LOUD and didn't need Amps.
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Anyone have attendance figures for qtrs/semis/finals this year - I hd heard one guesstimate of 27000
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All the positive expletives have already been used in describing your review of this show. What more can one say - point on super !
One thing I wonder about is the scoring. DCI gets slammed for 'slotting' by the judges. Top corps can have off nights yet their scores go up and from the same caption judges. DCI denies there is slotting - yet - how else can one corp's scores get into a 'groove' - how can the scores remain consistent across different sets of judges on the same night in 5 different places across the country - yet the scores/overall rankings remain point on same. Hmmmmmmmm. Has DCA reached into that bag as well ?
Example - I noted the review on the Cabs by two different reviews from Scranton - they aren't former Cabs either. Both said Cabs were improved and pushing it YET - their score and position remained the same as previous weeks basically. Are the Cabs slotted regardless of how they perform ? NOt just them - but I've noted on the flip side - Reading has a few issues at various shows yet their scores don't reflect it though no one disputes they are the top corp once again. The ancient 'tic' system had its flaws for certain, but at least it allowed a much better chance of the old axiom - 'on any given night......' upsets rarely if ever can happen under the current judging criteria and process - for good or for bad - or so it appears.
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Interesting commentary review. Indeed Allentown is one of the best DC venues in the country.
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Yes, but just because you obtain copyright privileges, doesnt mean the actual arranging comes for free.
Permission is only that. You get permission as is "Yes or No". They dont arrange anything for you or provide you with anything whatsoever
other than permission to use the material. THEN you have to get an arranger.
Hey Tasty - no kidding - but you are still missing the point - DC arrangers today charge 3-4X for 'original' works versus arranging public domain/licensed material.
Entertainment is relative to the individual. For me and just about all of my drum corp buddies from the 60's - many of the shows today just don't do it !
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Regarding the original music issue- here's a dirty secret as to why you're seeing so much of it.
It's expensive to get performance copyrights in certain instances, the fees run into several thousand dollars depending on the music, and there are lawyers out there hunting for bands and corps and then fining them if they didn't get permission.
Philip Sparke, a wind band composer, has guys out there looking for instance. His fees run about 2-3 grand, pay him or his lawyers sock you for 5 grand in fines.
Some composers, Hank Levy and Don Ellis for instance, specifically left the stipulation in their wills that if an educational group asks permission, that they pay nothing, Bless them.
So, you get a lot of original music programmed or stuff that's public domain nowadays. The pendulum has swung, and now the composers are getting fat, and corps and bands are selling ham sammiches for nothing more than to stave off copyright lawyers and to lay off the composers....
BIGW - I was aware about the music licensing fees for 'some' music, but paying say a $2500 license fee to score a show around a recent Broadway hit show is 2-4x less than paying one of the corp arrangers out there to come up with an original score with mostly forgettable music. The vast majority of music - whether it be classical,jazz or whatever is available gratis. We've seen the magnificent scores corps such as SC Vanguard has done with classical works - against the framework of today's brass lines - stunning and entertaining.
As for the 'foot tapping' at a DCI show - are you show the foot wasn't trying to kill a bug ? Years ago - the best and the not as good corps played enjoyable music primarily. Not so today. Far too much of the shows are akin to sleep therapy - though admittedly the execution of the brass lines is stunning. Percussion lines are musical versus rudiments based though sound aside - the execution on a 'tic' basis I find to be certainly no better in comparing the best lines of today versus xx years ago.
Kidsgrove Scouts got hosed!
in DCA - All-Age Corps Discussions
Posted · Edited by coloradocorp
Back when - generally speaking - most corps marched their shows in Prelims into concert formation - didn't play the concert - then went into their exit - thus keeping changes to the minimum to meet the shorter time on the field. Your comment that here was 'less emotion' etc - shows what era of DC you may have been involved with. There was emotion, I can assure you. It was tough on the judges back then at Nationals that indeed had dozens of corps - prelims could end just a few hours before finals was set to begin.
All these 'opinions' about first read might have some validity. Back when - it was a case of attacks/releases/pivots/alignment and how the show appeared from up top - first and last read was mostly irrelevant. The new era corps music and drill books tend to be more complex and perhaps judges and fans take a few views to hash out the 'full effect' . Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
All these claims and inferences that the judges intentionally score corps based on where they are from, how many shows they sponsor or get marching orders for scoring from DCA Mgmt is so sad. Judging has always been a bone of contention and that pertains to any form of competition involving a human assessing a performance. Judges have personal preferences and opinions and in the subjective scoring system that plays a role in the outcomes for sure. Certainly there was 'some' hanky panky ' in judging back when - we all have our stories of eraser marks or added tics on sheets after the show finished - etc. - no system is perfect - but the vast majority of judges were and still are on the up and up.
Come Saturday night there will be corps who just miss finals and there will be disappointment. There may be a shocker or two - we'll see. At Finals - judges will issue their 'LAST' read of the season on the corps and like it or not - that will be the result.
As for the KS - they will make finals certainly and draw more crowd acclamations, but wherever they finish - the corps above them will have deserved their scores as much as whatever KS is granted. Regardless you can expect the judges will be blasted by a left coast contingent and a host of others with their pointed views.