Separation of Fifes from Drum and Bugle Corps

[CornoBehnke]

I was looking at the history of the Holy Name Cadets and I noticed they originally were a fife drum and bugle corps. I know of many many other groups that were like this around the east coast. Why were fife and drum and drum and bugle separated in the 30s and 40s after it seemed to flourish before then? I think this is funny because all of you drum corps "purists don't want woodwinds in Drum Corps, yet it is our heritage. I know of one active fife drum and bugle corps, and its the Old Guard Fife Drum and Bugle corps of the 3rd Us Infantry in Washington DC (they are amazing check them out next time you go to the white house, they are a premiere group, unlike the drum and bugle corps). Are there any others? Why did fife and drum and drum and bugle corps go in such a different direction in then 40s and 50s? Why did drum and bugle corps completely de militarize and fife and drum corps stayed with all (still to this day) the military traditions from 1770-1945. I don't know is there are any historians on here?

[faelivrn]

I was looking at the history of the Holy Name Cadets and I noticed they originally were a fife drum and bugle corps. I know of many many other groups that were like this around the east coast. Why were fife and drum and drum and bugle separated in the 30s and 40s after it seemed to flourish before then? I think this is funny because all of you drum corps "purists don't want woodwinds in Drum Corps, yet it is our heritage. I know of one active fife drum and bugle corps, and its the Old Guard Fife Drum and Bugle corps of the 3rd Us Infantry in Washington DC (they are amazing check them out next time you go to the white house, they are a premiere group, unlike the drum and bugle corps). Are there any others? Why did fife and drum and drum and bugle corps go in such a different direction in then 40s and 50s? Why did drum and bugle corps completely de militarize and fife and drum corps stayed with all (still to this day) the military traditions from 1770-1945. I don't know is there are any historians on here?

[mello118]

I Don't know. Is there any English teachers on here?

[Einstein On The Beach]

I Don't know. Is there any English teachers on here?

Well that was just totally called for. No really, it was. <**>

[faelivrn]

Allow me to add a little perspective as someone who has been active in both the Drum & Bugle and Fife & Drum arenas. The switch from Fife/Bugle and Drum to either purely Drum & Bugle or Fife & Drum started in the 1940's and continued steadily throughout the 50's and 60's. First, one must consider a couple of historic facts. During the 1st part of the century, drum corps as a whole was primarily an East Coast phenomenon; more specifically fifing was truly (and for the most part still is) East Coast based. Also consider this, unknown to most, there are two distinct classes of fifing, the modern type as with the historical versions of early era drum and bugle corps which tended to play brass/military band type arrangements and ancient fifing which is by far the most prevalent (the classic fife and drum corps in revolutionary or civil war persona). Secondly, many junior corps were school and/or (in some cases both) church based where the fife was an inexpensive and easy instrument to provide and instruct. As time progressed, the veterans returned and VFW/AL posts started expanding memberships and sponsoring more senior corps. As well, the interest amongst their children also increased as such. Finally, (ironic as it may sound given todays issues) the fife and piccolo/flute wasn't found to lend itself to the big sound/ M&M effect that was becoming popular. As a result many corps just dropped the fife altogether. (The CT. Hurricanes were actually a true FIFE & DRUM CORPS at their founding). This trend picked up momentum as the schools and churches stopped sponsoring corps' and the VFW/AL increased their involvement. However. as many corps also just dropped the brass components and converted to fife and drum corps. Interestingly, until recently, the state of Connecticut had more Fife, Brass and Drum Corps then it had Drum and Bugle corps, even during the state's Drum and Bugle heydays of the 60's and early 70's. As a matter of fact, The Connecticut Fifers and Drummers Association, founded in 1885, would routinely hold contests including it's state championship that would attract 50+ corps from Connecticut alone. These would include ancient and modern fife and drum as well as fife/brass and drum corps (commonly called Combination corps). Sadly, the modern incarnation has since waned although the ancient fife and drum corps still thrive.

The one constant throughout the entire story was percussion. Many of the early national and world champions of the 30's, 40's and 50's were actually ancient rudimental drummers. Many of the pioneers of the first great evolution of drum and bugle corps in the 50's and 60's were ancient drummers. Look into the history of the Cavaliers and find Frank Arsenault for example. It wasn't uncommon to go to Ancient Fife and Drum musters and competitions and seeing guys with Reilly Raiders and Reading Buccaneer etc. jackets holding notebooks and portable tape recorders checking out the drum lines. More on this issue can be found throughout the great wealth of information on the internet regarding drum corps and marching percussion.

Finally, I must add, that although there were never any Ancient Fife and Drum corps that could approach the sheer size and impact of today's or yesterday's great Drum and Bugle Corps; there were a number of corps that should never be taken lightly as far as musical performance is concerned. If one is truly interested, I would suggest that you find a recording of Fife and Drum Corps such as the N.Y. Regementals, the Connecticut Yanks (led by none other than Charlie Poole Jr.), the Connecticut Blues or Connecticut Patriots. I think you would be surprised at what you heard.

After years of lurking this is my first post.

Regards,

Faelivrn

[MarimbasaurusRex]

They were separated because they didn't work well together. A straight bugle (no valves) can't play most traditional fife music and a fife sounds a bit silly doing bugle calls. They also weren't in the same key. As I understand it, the fifes would do their thing and then the bugles would do theirs. It was a parade format and they would take turns playing with the drums. This was all before the field era was even imagined.

Perhaps the separation even forced the bugles to include more musical content, add valves, etc. Without the fifes, the only content was basically a major triad.

As for the de-militarization of drum corps, look at SCVSopAaron's avatar and tell me drum corps is de-militarized. Not picking on Aaron, he's a fine example of esprit de corps.

Edited December 3, 2005 by MarimbasaurusRex

[faelivrn]

They were separated because they didn't work well together. A straight bugle (no valves) can't play most traditional fife music and a fife sounds a bit silly doing bugle calls. They also weren't in the same key. As I understand it, the fifes would do their thing and then the bugles would do theirs. It was a parade format and they would take turns playing with the drums. This was all before the field era was even imagined.

As for the de-militarization of drum corps, look at SCVSopAaron's avatar and tell me drum corps is de-militarized. Not picking on Aaron, he's a fine example of esprit de corps.

I don't know about that, I've been a state and national champion fifer as well as an all state and college football player

[MarimbasaurusRex]

I don't know about that, I've been a state and national champion fifer as well as an all state and college football player

Exactly why I edited that part out! LOL

[faelivrn]

Exactly why I edited that part out! LOL

No offense taken, besides you would be amazed at how well us fifers and drummers can drink (amongst other things). As an aside, the percussion ensemble, LEGENDS, which cleaned house at this years DCA I&E was comprised solely of ancient style rudimental drummers. I forgot to add that in my original post.

[CornoBehnke]

Allow me to add a little perspective as someone who has been active in both the Drum & Bugle and Fife & Drum arenas. The switch from Fife/Bugle and Drum to either purely Drum & Bugle or Fife & Drum started in the 1940's and continued steadily throughout the 50's and 60's. First, one must consider a couple of historic facts. During the 1st part of the century, drum corps as a whole was primarily an East Coast phenomenon; more specifically fifing was truly (and for the most part still is) East Coast based. Also consider this, unknown to most, there are two distinct classes of fifing, the modern type as with the historical versions of early era drum and bugle corps which tended to play brass/military band type arrangements and ancient fifing which is by far the most prevalent (the classic fife and drum corps in revolutionary or civil war persona). Secondly, many junior corps were school and/or (in some cases both) church based where the fife was an inexpensive and easy instrument to provide and instruct. As time progressed, the veterans returned and VFW/AL posts started expanding memberships and sponsoring more senior corps. As well, the interest amongst their children also increased as such. Finally, (ironic as it may sound given todays issues) the fife and piccolo/flute wasn't found to lend itself to the big sound/ M&M effect that was becoming popular. As a result many corps just dropped the fife altogether. (The CT. Hurricanes were actually a true FIFE & DRUM CORPS at their founding). This trend picked up momentum as the schools and churches stopped sponsoring corps' and the VFW/AL increased their involvement. However. as many corps also just dropped the brass components and converted to fife and drum corps. Interestingly, until recently, the state of Connecticut had more Fife, Brass and Drum Corps then it had Drum and Bugle corps, even during the state's Drum and Bugle heydays of the 60's and early 70's. As a matter of fact, The Connecticut Fifers and Drummers Association, founded in 1885, would routinely hold contests including it's state championship that would attract 50+ corps from Connecticut alone. These would include ancient and modern fife and drum as well as fife/brass and drum corps (commonly called Combination corps). Sadly, the modern incarnation has since waned although the ancient fife and drum corps still thrive.

The one constant throughout the entire story was percussion. Many of the early national and world champions of the 30's, 40's and 50's were actually ancient rudimental drummers. Many of the pioneers of the first great evolution of drum and bugle corps in the 50's and 60's were ancient drummers. Look into the history of the Cavaliers and find Frank Arsenault for example. It wasn't uncommon to go to Ancient Fife and Drum musters and competitions and seeing guys with Reilly Raiders and Reading Buccaneer etc. jackets holding notebooks and portable tape recorders checking out the drum lines. More on this issue can be found throughout the great wealth of information on the internet regarding drum corps and marching percussion.

Finally, I must add, that although there were never any Ancient Fife and Drum corps that could approach the sheer size and impact of today's or yesterday's great Drum and Bugle Corps; there were a number of corps that should never be taken lightly as far as musical performance is concerned. If one is truly interested, I would suggest that you find a recording of Fife and Drum Corps such as the N.Y. Regementals, the Connecticut Yanks (led by none other than Charlie Poole Jr.), the Connecticut Blues or Connecticut Patriots. I think you would be surprised at what you heard.

After years of lurking this is my first post.

Regards,

Faelivrn

Wow thanks so much! I just think it is so strange that the two have become so different. Btw Just like Drum and Bugle Corps, fife and drum corps have gotten concert tuned 10 hole fifes. They are much more intune and less harsh.

As for the grammar, I write this stuff pretty fast because I am busy. Please try to understand.

BTW Why don't drum and bugle corps play patriotic music while in parades? Like they are going down the street playing stuff that is nothing even close to patriotic, even stuff like Echano, in a 4th of July Parade. I just feel that is missing from Drum and Bugle Corps.

The Old Guard Fife, Drum and Bugle Corps has Concert fife and 1 valve bugles in Bb (they just switched from Bugles in Multi Keys like F, G, Bb and A) It works so well. I heard them live this year, even though they sometimes go out with only 15 people for a show, they have a very exciting and big sound. The full corps has over 70 members. They perform more then any other group in the military.