audiodb
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Posts posted by audiodb
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But why EVER would they want to? The instructors caucus had been asking for A&E for a decade before they were legalized.
Here's why....if it has the potential to harm DCI financially.
Items that are not particularly popular fade away or are not used to any great extent...e.g. amplified singing. Just hasn't caught on. Nor has extensive spoken dialogue. It isn't running rampant through DCI. They don't have to be made illegal.If something can hurt DCI financially, DCI might want to disallow it. Take for example the bans on use of water, bare feet, or pyrotechnics in shows....all items that can lead to personal injury on DCI's watch. What if A&E were found to be financially damaging to DCI?
(And by the way, pre-recorded singing/dialogue is running rampant in DCI....don't know how you could have missed it. You did go to a show this year, right?)
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the big issue with what youre asking is that enjoyment, entertainment, good, bad,like, dislikes are all subjective and will vary from show to show, and person to person.
So what? Judging is subjective to begin with!
You demonstrate exactly what the problem is here....this attitude that contest results should not be permitted to vary from show to show, or from person to person (i.e. judge to judge). It is an old 1970s-era myth that any inconsistency must = bad judging, and so to fix it, all judges must conform to a consensus. That's how slotting was born.
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None of this is new. Drum corps have been "mixing" for the box since the beginning of the activity. The only difference is that it's more noticeable with the addition of pit amplification.
How delightfully naive.
Two primary differences:
1. At "the beginning of the activity", everyone was on the field. Now we have devices that are staged 15-30 feet in front of the field, and remain there for the whole show. The phenomenon described in the OP was never a characteristic problem when all players were mobile and capable of restaging.
2. At "the beginning of the activity", we used only instruments that were designed to project from the field. Now, not so much.
I am convinced that the solution to this problem is to get the judges out of the press box. Balancing to the box is no longer a tolerable status quo.
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This notion being floated here that drum corps has undergone a fundamental change during the DCI era while the world around it seemingly stood still is silly.
The sports examples aren’t valid because sports have changed along with the society around them too. Everything from free agency in baseball to primacy of the pass in football is indicative of quantum change in sport in tandem with the world around.
Dismiss the DH if you like. Dismiss the increased reliance on relief pitching or the expanded MLB playoff formats if you wish. But don’t miss this reality: Baseball has managed to hold onto many traditional elements while its share of the U.S. sports market eroded around it. The NFL has long-since passed MLB as owner of the national pastime. The NFL has become by far the most popular U.S. sport in no small part by legislating more offense for the game, particularly through passing. The NFL of the 60s hardly resembles the NFL today.
MLB has also lost share to the NBA, which in turn transformed its game during the DCI era with an emphasis on offense. The shot clock is just one rule aimed at making the game faster and more attractive to fans who aren’t necessarily students of the game. A whole host of other rules (or their interpretation) has helped create a league of stars where once there was merely league of teams.
In the recent Olympics, we saw the impact of liberalized rules to allow competition by professionals who once were banned. This wasn’t done for the purity of the sport. This was done to market in modern times.
Even in soccer, where the game itself stays mostly the same, the changes have been profound. The success of the English Premier League isn’t a grassroots accomplishment. No, the Premier League like all the top leagues is a testament to the internationalization of the sport. Transient stars drift in and out, making the world’s game more homogenous and less regional.
s - t - r - e - t - c - h - i - n - g . . . .
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Compare the evolution of the activity with that of Miles Davis from 1959 to 1989... Picasso from 1901 to 1940... Martha Graham from 1926 to 1956... Stanley Kubrick from 1960 to 1999... you get the picture.
The evolution of drum corps is glacial in comparison.
People are freaking out about electronics and mic'ing horn players and soloists... in 2012... Miles was using electronics and effects on his horn 40 years ago that were light years ahead of where drum corps is now.
Men landed on the moon over 40 years ago, and we still limit the tour to just Earth?
Not everything needs constant change. Need I remind you that soccer is still the world's most popular sport? Oh, guess I just did!
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No offense, but that's really straining. Obviously the corps don't literally sell the tickets, it's a question of who motivates fans to pay money for the show.
And as this thread demonstrates, the "who" in question is often not any specific corps. Many people just want to see a DCI contest.
If you didn't go to your seat with your paid for ticket to see Group X, then it's a pretty good guess that you wouldn't have paid for a show that included only Group X and lower.Wrong again. I know folks who skipped the 9-15 block Thursday because they knew they would see them all Friday. Now who's straining?
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The real test is prelims. How many are in their seats at 10AM to watch #35? How many at 2:30 to watch #23? How many at 7PM to watch #13? How many at 10PM to watch #1? That tells you a lot about which corps are causing the tickets to be sold.
Like what?
I noticed that corps #8 always has far fewer butts in seats than corps #9. I guess corps #9 "sold more tickets", then. Funny....it doesn't matter who #8 and #9 are, and it's true every year. At least, every year there's an intermission between those two corps. Perhaps this only tells me how many people got caught in the nacho line, and couldn't get back past the ushers during #8's performance....or how many people's flights to Indy were delayed....or how thick the traffic is around LOS on a Thursday evening....or how many people can't get Friday (or Thursday, if not local) off to travel to Indy....or how many people skip Thursday now that Friday has 25 corps instead of 17.
So say there were 250 people in the stands when Blue Saints started things off. Does that mean the Blue Saints sold 250 of the 6,647 prelim tickets?
And if 6,647 tickets sold, but only 6,600 people actually sat in seats, what corps sold the other 47 tickets?
Please....you can't tell me anything about what corps "caused" which tickets to sell. Fact is, many people buy a ticket to see a whole event. Once there, they might watch everybody....or if they can't sit still that long, and they have some way of knowing who the best corps are (like DCI placements that almost never change from day to day), then they are more likely to be in their seat when those better corps are on. That does not equate to tickets sold.
OK, here are two situations where you really can say a specific corps "sold X tickets":
1. Corps each get a block of seats from DCI, and they sell the tickets to their parents/boosters. At least here, the corps is doing the selling.
2. In rare cases, a single corps stages an event all by themselves (i.e. Academy's early June stage show). Then, there's no doubt that every ticket buyer is there to see Academy's performing ensembles.
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I think DCI sells the tickets. For an example of what I mean, look at their best selling show - DCI finals. Most of the tickets for this show sell before anyone knows which corps are in the show.
This.
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I'd like to be there when you stand in front of Dave Gibbs and say "You didn't build that".
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it is funny that BOA has become the innovator - introducing these "first"
You know what? If we're going to put lighting on the table, in addition to all the other expensive toys already in play, then I say let the tax-subsidized scholastic activities be the "innovator$".
The drum corps activity blossomed because it made field pageantry and competition cost-effective. The farther we stray from this principle, the fewer drum corps we have.
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Well, I see this as the best opportunity for change that's been presented in a lot of years. I think a "6 & 3" proposal has been discussed; 6 outside BOD members and 3 corps directors. I can't say how "serious" those discussions were.
Probably not very. AFAIK, there is nothing on the table that reduces the proportion of inmates that would be running their own asylum.
I'm not going to point you to it so you'll have to search like I did. But it comes directly from the minutes of corps board meeting. "The TOC was unprofitable at every venue..."I am finding this difficult to believe. Every venue?
Is this for 2011, or 2012?
Do you realize what this means? I know PR and Crown sold out their TOC shows in 2011, and I'm fairly certain Rockford sold out again this year. If even a sellout loses money, there is no way the business model could possibly work. That's why I'm having trouble believing it....who would be that stupid to run a show that is guaranteed to lose money?
Again, I knew there was never any resolution to issues that the G7 raised - the real, core issues - except for the TOC experiment. Worse, the rift between the corps was never addressed and the directors of both camps were not talking to one another. That's when I was pessimistic. Now, they are talking, negotiating, drafting, building, and attempting to reach a plan forward that everyone can agree with. That's why I'm optimistic, finally.How do you know they're talking? Specifically, are G7 directors and 9-23 directors talking with one another....or is someone else doing all the talking?
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Let's start with governance. The corps directors are expected to make decisions for the betterment of DCI as a whole, making their own corps' best interest potentially secondary in their decision process. Considering human nature, it's reasonable to expect this model to blow up.
You see any alternative to that getting serious consideration? (Sorry, that question is really just a rhetorical one.)
The DCI 5 year plan is gone.Well, it's not "gone". Perhaps it would be getting done right now, if not for all these other distractions. For example....
We hear, still, rumors that the G8 corps are still threatening to abandon ship.You must mean the G7. There were never eight corps making that threat.
The only action that was different was the formation of the TOC shows. Did that feel like a long-lasting solution and, now that they are shown to be unprofitable, what would one suppose is the expected reaction by the G7 corps?Before we breeze past this....where was it shown that the TOC shows are unprofitable?
We lost 4 corps this year. At least one couldn't make the schedule to Indy. The schedule breaks corps, big ones and little ones.I think you flipped the numbers....by my count, we lost one corps and saw four not make it to Indy as scheduled (sorry, five....almost forgot Revo). Oh, and it's not the schedule that breaks corps, but rather, when corps break off more than they can chew.
What about the blanket admontition by the G8 that the executive leadership (and staff) of DCI is not capable of executing a plan of revival OR maintenance? That the major corps are fully capable of running the "business" of DCI better than the executive they voted into office all those years ago? Does that suggest a strong, united, viable activity to you? Is Dan A. and his staff capable? Is it fair for a corps to run a ticketing program in direct competiton to DCI, when that corps, as a member of DCI, is signed on as demanding more money from DCI at the expense of other corps?Does this sound like a structure that is healthy, thriving, growing, and spreading the activity to an active fan base?
The current actions to solve the problem were visible to any fan who chooses to be involved more deeply. I understand many fans don't care or don't want to be bothered as long as ticket prices aren't too high. But for some of us fans who dig a little deeper, the true state of DCI's structure is not hard to classify as a mess.
What's happening now is the necessary first step to finding out if the activity has a future at all and, as I said earlier, I'm more optimistic now than I've been in a long time that there are serious minds addressing these issues. Maybe not singing Kumbaya yet, but they are talking and working and hammering out a way forward.
Wow. I'd hate to see the state of affairs when you are pessimistic.
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I'm not as sanguine as you that there are lots of kids just waiting to spend a lot of time working on a show just to compete 3 or 4 times pre season, if they are lucky. What about geographic areas where DCI comes to town once a year, and maybe not even on a weekend?
Spokane Thunder stayed in the Northwest this season. Their five-contest season lasted one week. Interestingly, they also fielded their largest corps ever (38B/13FP/7PP/14G).
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I noticed the same problem before Allentown, in Lawrence, MA-and mentioned same in one of the review threads for that venue. At least one other corps (was either Cadets or Boston Crusaders, I honestly don't remember which) had the same problem in Lawrence when their pre-show started and the sound tech corrected it almost immediately.
Oh, yeah, that was the Cadets. I remember because after the way that woke everybody up, the narrative about "not a creature was stirring" just didn't seem to fit.
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Sitting in row 2 right in front of the speaker was downright painful.
And it was even worse where I was, down on the field recording them.
When I work in industrial settings, hearing protection is required for environments louder than 85 dB. Nothing I have been subjected to on the day job compares to the sound pressure levels as I recorded the Cavaliers from down on the field. I had to plug my ears for self-preservation, and as I looked behind me, I saw many fans in the lower seating areas doing the same. ForTus, their 2012 show was 15 Minutes of Pain.
There is no need for the speaker volume to be cranked up that loud....unless they were trying to cover up something. I did notice that in the drum feature, they cranked up some electronic noises in sync with the snares so that every difficult lick would have a corresponding belch from the speakers drowning it out. Might fool some spectators, but the field judge can still tell your snareline is dirty. But there's nothing in the pre-show that needs to be covered up....just that ear-popping whoosh at the start, and the creepy voiceover, "In the future, everyone will lose their hearing in 15 minutes".
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Drum corps, marching band, same difference.
Well, if you're taking that view, why even mention how many corps there once were? Tell us how many corps/bands/drumlines/guards there were in the "marching arts community" umpteen years ago, and continue from there.
They are completely indistinguishable to the person on the street. It is silly to argue the differences.Yes, it is. So why do you continue to argue?
Drum corps has pretty much shaped competitive marching band... and now marching band has become a proving ground and feeder for drum corps. There is a very clear symbiotic relationship between the two.... and these days drum corps would cease to exist without scholastic marching band programs.By your logic, the opposite is true. Without scholastic marching band programs, there would be a need for drum corps on the local level once again. Get your story straight.
But, again... the the guy on the street... they're exactly the same thing.The guy on the street is irrelevant. The guy in the stands matter$.
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Drum Corps is just a part of the larger marching music community, which includes winter guard, winter percussion, and marching band. In our activity/sport, DCI is the NFL and marching band is high school football. High School marching band is doing FAR MORE for Drum Corps as a whole than local community drum corps could've hoped. That's just the reality of it.
So no, there's no massive difference between drum corps and marching band. Really, drum corps is the pinacle of marching band, just as Independent World groups are the pinnacle of the winter guard and percussion activity, which also have Scholastic counterparts.
Downvote this all you want, but it's the truth that many of you are refusing to accept.
There is nothing you have said in this post that I "refuse to accept". That's your viewpoint, and in the manner it is stated, it doesn't contradict any of my viewpoints. If everyone could choose their words as carefully as you, discussion would be far more constructive here.
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Nowhere near the number of competitive marching bands, winter guards, winter percussion ensembles, drum corps in europe or asia that have popped up since.
Sweden now has a quickly growing winter percussion circuit... ####### Sweden!
Broaden your perspective. While independent competitive drum corps in North America has had a decline in the raw number of units... there are more kids (and adults) participating in marching music globally than at any time in history.
I thought we were talking about drum corps. At least, that's what you said previously:
If you look a bit beyond the surface, you'll also see the massive growth in marching music, and yes... drum corps.... around the world. On a global scale, there are more actual drum corps in the world than there has been at any point in history. A LOT more.
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If you look a bit beyond the surface, you'll also see the massive growth in marching music, and yes... drum corps.... around the world. On a global scale, there are more actual drum corps in the world than there has been at any point in history. A LOT more.
Do you have any idea how many drum corps there were back in the day?
Back to the real issue of WHY corps have declined and the actual pace of that decline. This is not something new, this is not something sudden. I started marching over 20 years ago... went to my first show in the mid 80's. Even still, I never got to see corps like Bridgemen or 27 or Kingsmen live... because they folded years before my time. The reason they folded is that the skill set of the management team of these organizations just simply didn't match those required for creating a sustainable organization. Period.People can try to assign blame or find excuses for why these corps did not survive, but the reality is that it wasn't DCI, it wasn't touring or anything else. It was simply management of these organizations we're all that great at making money and often had difficulty managing the money they did have. The corps that survived were simply the ones that figured it out... often the hard way.
Compare Cadets to Bridgemen or 27. The only reason why Cadets exist now and those don't is simply that Cadets figured out how to make and manage enough money to keep things going. That's it.
Then why is it that the director of those same Cadets comes along every year or two to claim that it hasn't been figured out after all, and that if we don't give top corps like his more money, the sky will fall?
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I think the top six lines are pretty closely matched....and if I had to pick a winner last night, it would be Bluecoats.
After that, the gap between 6th and 7th should be of Grand Canyon magnitude.
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(sigh)
Maybe we'll never solve anything on DCP....but this won't get solved in the DCI boardroom either, or anywhere else, as long as people view these issues in black/white with no shades of gray.
For instance, the timing, content and font of the OP will inevitably cause polarized responses from those who think DCI can do no wrong, and ridicule from the "I like waffles" crowd. But let's look at the key assertion made within:
Thanks to the "rich get richer" system that was employed, whereby winning corps made more money on tour, the activity is dwindling to a select few who attract all the kids. And if it were up to certain people, there would only be 10 corps in the whole country, and doing it on their own "tour".
Now, bearing in mind that both DCI and their predecessors used systems that fit this description....what do y'all think? True or false?
(Oh, sorry - there's that black/white thing again.)
I find some truth to it. There has to be....DCI was created so that a subset of corps (the DCI member corps) could claim a greater share of the revenue from their events. But of course, to claim that alone is killing the activity when that's how things were done prior to DCI....well, it's not that simple.
Conversely, though, I wouldn't say this either:
There are many more reasons, but I think the important thing to know is that DCI did not cause this decline.
To be fair, I snipped this one sentence out of the context of one of Mr. Willis' thorough and well-reasoned posts which made several dozen excellent points....but a little rewording would go a long way here. Of course DCI didn't single-handedly cause every last bit of decline in drum corps. But they have some culpability....and therefore, some ability to turn things around.
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While the economy is A factor, it's not THE main factor. The single largest contributor to the decline of drum corps is the fact that kids today have access to thousands of activities that they didn't have access to "back in the day".
Then why have some activities grown in the same time period? Take youth soccer, for example....or competitive marching band.
I'm sorry, but "more choices" isn't even a valid excuse, much less the primary one.
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I'm not resting this solely on Michael Boo's shoulders because I think his works are well written and well done. I still feel that he "picks" favorites. Here is one sentence from the notecard inside the 2011 finals DVD - "Boston Crusaders knocked the Blue Stars out of the eight place position that the corps had enjoyed for the last three years. Also above the Blue Stars finished the Blue Knights and Madison Scouts". It's not about what he said (he stated mere fact), it's how he said it.
In what way? I don't see anything said here that isn't already reflected in the contest results he is referring to, so how is that biased?
Again, by no means am I saying this is limited to people like Boo; I've sensed that there have been many people rooting for only a few select corps and others are getting left in the dust. I can name a few other than just the Blue Stars. I also think that in relation to the podcasts that Dan Potter puts out for DCI are also focused on a few select corps. I recall listening to a podcast last year that was about 20 minutes in length and 11 or so minutes of the podcast was dedicated the Blue Devils. Why not split up that time and dedicate it to talking about the top 12? Perhaps there could be some talk about the corps that are in the running for the top 12 as well.Perhaps he already has. Have you listened to all his podcasts?
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No, they will not "overtake" BD in Indy....because they will already be ahead.
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For Dinosaurs Only
in DCI World Class Corps Discussions
Posted
And I see you are once again ignoring all the times I have debunked that claim of yours.